Greatest Goal Scorers Of All-Time: #1

[AD1066]

It's not about the number of goals, it's about the record and actually pacing for it. Lets be real, Ovi is great but outside of adjusted stats, he has as much of a case as Bobby Hull. Gretzky has every goal scoring record in the book and is probably the objective best goal scorer no matter what, Ovi needs that record if you're gonna convince me he's greater than Gretzky.

Shouldn't context matter somewhat? Between the start of Gretzky's career and the probable end of Ovechkin's, 46 years will have passed. In that time, the sport has changed and evolved; equipment, training, rules, participation from other countries. The net effect of all these factors is a league in which it's more difficult to score nowadays, and I think that should be acknowledged. Otherwise we're pretending that all things are equal always and nothing ever changes.

The same should be true in the opposite case. Say that they made the nets larger after the '04 lockout to make the game more "exciting" and today McDavid is scoring 250+ points a season. Would it be fair to say that he's the greatest player of all time?

Likewise, in the NFL I wouldn't consider either Philip Rivers or Ben Roethlisberger to be greater quarterbacks than Dan Marino despite both having more career passing yards. The NFL has changed over the years to make things easier on quarterbacks, while the NHL has changed to make things more difficult for offensive players, whether intentional or not. But in both cases I think context is important for assessing something like "greatness".

 

[filinski77]

It's not about the number of goals, it's about the record and actually pacing for it. Lets be real, Ovi is great but outside of adjusted stats, he has as much of a case as Bobby Hull. Gretzky has every goal scoring record in the book and is probably the objective best goal scorer no matter what, Ovi needs that record if you're gonna convince me he's greater than Gretzky.

"It's not about the number of goals, it's about the record and actually pacing for it."
-> The only way to argue for Gretzky is by looking only at raw goals for a career, or raw goals for a season. That's it. People claiming he needs to beat him in raw goals to be a greater goal-scorer are suffering some serious tunnel vision. Do you agree that Ovi/Crosby/McDavid will never be greater offensive players than Messier/Francis unless they surpass 1,800 points? Your answer to that HAS to be yes given the exact same criteria.

"Lets be real, Ovi is great but outside of adjusted stats, he has as much of a case as Bobby Hull."
-> Except that Ovechkin has 2 more (retro) rockets than Hull (despite playing in a larger league where it is factually harder too be #1 over and over), and the fact that Ovechkin has 140 more goals (and counting). Let's be real, he has a much better case than Bobby Hull.

"Gretzky has every goal scoring record in the book and is probably the objective best goal scorer no matter what"
-> Oh man, this one will be fun. Let's compare all of the goal-scoring records then. Not only does Gretzky not have every goal scoring record in the book, but Ovechkin is more or less a lock to kill him in that category. Looking at all of the goal records will show that Ovechkin is ahead, and if you actually have the competency to try and adjust for era's somehow, that gap only widens.

	Ovi	Gretzky
Most raw goals all-time	#4 (lock for #2 or better)	#1
Most adjusted goals all-time	#2 (lock for #1)	#4
Most times leading league in goals	#1	#4
Most times leading league in goals/gp	#1	#8
Most times leading league in PP goals	#1	Not top-10
Most times leading the league in ES goals	#2	#4
All-time ES goals	#5 (lock for #4 or better)	#1
All-time PP goals	#2 (lock for #1)	#17
All-time OT goals	#1	N/A
All-time game-winning goals	#3 (lock for #2 of better)	#20
All-time short-handed goals	N/A	#1
All-time playoff goals	#16	#1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Individual 1]

Bossy had 9 straight 50 or more goal seasons from the day he starting playing in the league.
No other player in the history of the NHL has ever done it and was on his way to a 10th but his career was abruptly ended.

And you claim he's over-rated.

Bossy played in the perfect time for this to occur.

During his 9 50 goal season his goal scoring finishes were
1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 7

Howe for example starting in his 21 year old season has the following finishes in 9 seasons
1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 5

There are a couple of goal scorers with better 9 year stretches than Bossy, that did not play in eras where you can finish 7th and still get 50+. Also why are you putting importance into doing it when they started in the league, you have players who started in the league at 18 while Bossy started at 21.

 

[ole ole]

"It's not about the number of goals, it's about the record and actually pacing for it."
-> The only way to argue for Gretzky is by looking only at raw goals for a career, or raw goals for a season. That's it. People claiming he needs to beat him in raw goals to be a greater goal-scorer are suffering some serious tunnel vision. Do you agree that Ovi/Crosby/McDavid will never be greater offensive players than Messier/Francis unless they surpass 1,800 points? Your answer to that HAS to be yes given the exact same criteria.

"Lets be real, Ovi is great but outside of adjusted stats, he has as much of a case as Bobby Hull."
-> Except that Ovechkin has 2 more (retro) rockets than Hull (despite playing in a larger league where it is factually harder too be #1 over and over), and the fact that Ovechkin has 140 more goals (and counting). Let's be real, he has a much better case than Bobby Hull.

"Gretzky has every goal scoring record in the book and is probably the objective best goal scorer no matter what"
-> Oh man, this one will be fun. Let's compare all of the goal-scoring records then. Not only does Gretzky not have every goal scoring record in the book, but Ovechkin is more or less a lock to kill him in that category. Looking at all of the goal records will show that Ovechkin is ahead, and if you actually have the competency to try and adjust for era's somehow, that gap only widens.

	Ovi	Gretzky
Most raw goals all-time	#4 (lock for #2 or better)	#1
Most adjusted goals all-time	#2 (lock for #1)	#4
Most times leading league in goals	#1	#4
Most times leading league in goals/gp	#1	#8
Most times leading league in PP goals	#1	Not top-10
Most times leading the league in ES goals	#2	#4
All-time ES goals	#5 (lock for #4 or better)	#1
All-time PP goals	#2 (lock for #1)	#17
All-time OT goals	#1	N/A
All-time game-winning goals	#3 (lock for #2 of better)	#20
All-time short-handed goals	N/A	#1
All-time playoff goals	#16	#1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Adjusted stats .

 

[filinski77]

Adjusted stats .

I included over 10 records and your only response was to get buttburt over one?

Adjusted stats aren’t perfect, but they’re a hell of a lot more useful than raw stats are across vastly different scoring environments.

 

[ole ole]

Bossy played in the perfect time for this to occur.

During his 9 50 goal season his goal scoring finishes were
1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 7

Howe for example starting in his 21 year old season has the following finishes in 9 seasons
1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 5

There are a couple of goal scorers with better 9 year stretches than Bossy, that did not play in eras where you can finish 7th and still get 50+. Also why are you putting importance into doing it when they started in the league, you have players who started in the league at 18 while Bossy started at 21.

Listen to yourself, eras. You make it sound like an every day occurrence. It happened ONCE.
Also who are those so called players that had a better 9 yr stretch in goal scoring with the exception of the great one.

 

[ole ole]

I included over 10 records and your only response was to get buttburt over one?

Adjusted stats aren’t perfect, but they’re a hell of a lot more useful than raw stats are across vastly different scoring environments.

Adjusted stats are like saying if my grandmother had balls she be my grandfather. They are basically what if compared to what actual was done.

Fact
Gretz -894
OV- 750.
You can adjust anything you want but you can't change the proof.

 

[filinski77]

Adjusted stats are like saying if my grandmother had balls she be my grandfather. They are basically what if compared to what actual was done.

Don’t be ridiculous.

Raw stats are like realizing that having $1,000,000 today does not mean you’re richer than someone who had $750,000 in 1980.

Like I said, they’re not perfect, but if you think about it for more than 2 seconds, *some* sort of adjustment is needed to get any meaningful analysis/comparison.

I’ll ask you a very simple question: In 1992/1993, did ALL of: [Lemieux, LaFontaine, Oates, Yzerman, Selanne, Turgeon, Mogilny, Gilmor, Robitaille, Sundin, Recchi] have better seasons than peak Ovi/Crosby/Malkin did in 2009? After all, they had higher raw point totals, and you only care about “what was actually done”?

Any level of deeper thought would make you think that some sort of context should be added to those numbers when making a comparison, but I’m really interested in what you think here LOL.

 

[sr edler]

Mario & Bobby Hull are probably #1 and #2 for me. Then you have the rest of the pack with Gretzky, Bure, Ovechkin, Hull Jr., Maurice Richard, Howe, Bossy, Selänne, Esposito, et cetera.

Mario could score in every way possible, and was deadly one-on-one. He played in a tough clutch-and-grab environment too. That whole shorthanded breakaway goal sequence where a Nordiques player is riding on his back, rodeo style, all the way from the red line and in while committing 58 different hooking and holding infractions is a classic.

Bobby Hull scored 50 goals in his last NHL season as a 33-year old, and then went on to score over 300 goals in the WHA. It's funny just a few posts above me here someone is doing the "Ovechkin's got 140 more goals than Hull" blah blah argument, as if Hull's goal scoring just would have dropped from the face of the earth (from 50 to nothing) had he stayed in the NHL. But I guess the Ron Francis argument (he must be the second best playmaker ever, right, because he's second all-time in NHL assists?) is the best one can do while desperately trying to pump the case of one's favorite player.

Regarding Ovechkin, I just feel he's too average one-on-one with the goalie, i.e. on breakaways. Best goal scorer ever for me can't be average one-on-one with the goalie, it just doesn't make any sense. He's also been quite underwhelming internationally (Olympics, et cetera), and the post second lockout era is just so soft. Just sniping in a soft league doesn't do it for me, it's the same with Auston Matthews. We've all seen Matthews snipe like a golden boy in the regular season, but in the playoffs you kinda need more than just one string on your bow to fully succeed, unless you have some superhero on your line always setting you up for easy candy.

 

[filinski77]

Mario & Bobby Hull are probably #1 and #2 for me. Then you have the rest of the pack with Gretzky, Bure, Ovechkin, Hull Jr., Maurice Richard, Howe, Bossy, Selänne, Esposito, et cetera.

Mario could score in every way possible, and was deadly one-on-one. He played in a tough clutch-and-grab environment too. That whole shorthanded breakaway goal sequence where a Nordiques player is riding on his back, rodeo style, all the way from the red line and in while committing 58 different hooking and holding infractions is a classic.

Bobby Hull scored 50 goals in his last NHL season as a 33-year old, and then went on to score over 300 goals in the WHA. It's funny just a few posts above me here someone is doing the "Ovechkin's got 140 more goals than Hull" blah blah argument, as if Hull's goal scoring just would have dropped from the face of the earth (from 50 to nothing) had he stayed in the NHL. But I guess the Ron Francis argument (he must be the second best playmaker ever, right, because he's second all-time in NHL assists?) is the best one can do while desperately trying to pump the case of one's favorite player.

Regarding Ovechkin, I just feel he's too average one-on-one with the goalie, i.e. on breakaways. Best goal scorer ever for me can't be average one-on-one with the goalie, it just doesn't make any sense. He's also been quite underwhelming internationally (Olympics, et cetera), and the post second lockout era is just so soft. Just sniping in a soft league doesn't do it for me, it's the same with Auston Matthews. We've all seen Matthews snipe like a golden boy in the regular season, but in the playoffs you kinda need more than one string on your bow to fully succeed, unless you have some superhero on your line always setting you for easy candy.

Regarding the last paragraph about Ovechkin:

“Regarding Ovechkin, I just feel he's too average one-on-one with the goalie, i.e. on breakaways. Best goal scorer ever for me can't be average one-on-one with the goalie, it just doesn't make any sense.“
-> This doesn’t make any sense to me. So if Ovechkin scored less goals from his elite shot, but more intimate up-close stick handling goals, he’d be a better goalscorer even if he had the exact same level of dominance over his peers?

“Just sniping in a soft league doesn't do it for me”
-> Also doesn’t make sense. Hull and Mario (for the majority of his career) played when the discrepancy between the skill of goalies and defenceman was much further from goal scorers than it is today. That’s like saying “watching a guy split the middle between 2 guys who can hardly skate backwards doesn’t do it for me”. At the end of the day, the league has changed to a point where it is much harder to score goals due to larger and more athletic goalies, and better defensive systems. It makes sense that needing a good shot is more vital today than it was back then.

As far as your playoff comments go, I can’t tell if they’re solely directed to Matthews, but either way, Ovechkin is the best playoff goalscorer of his generation, and one of the best all time, so that wouldn’t make much of a difference either.