Greatest Goal Scorers Of All-Time: #1

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

So you guys also believe that Mike Gartner was a better goal scorer than the likes of Mario,Yzerman,Sakic and Bobby Hull?

No one's calling Mike Gartner the best goal scorer.

 

[amnesiac]

Gretzky was better than everyone else even if he was a playmaker. If Ovechkin gets to 895, I'll reconsider my position.

so if Ovie gets to 893 youd still think Gretzky is a better goalscorer?

 

[Zuluss]

... and the true competition Ovechkin has for #1 goal-scorer all-time - Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull - get zero votes combined

Here are the counts of top1, top3, top5, top10 finishes for most folks mentioned in the OP

Howe: 5*1st, 12*top3, 14*top5, 19*top10

Hull: 7*1st, 10*top3, 12*top5, 13*top10

Richard: 5*1st, 9*top3, 13*top5, 14*top10

Ovechkin: 9*1st, 11*top3, 13*top5, 13*top10

Gretzky: 5*1st, 5*top3, 8*top5, 9*top10

Bossy: 2*1st, 7*top3, 8*top5, 9*top10

Lemieux: 3*1st, 6*top3, 6*top5, 9*top10

Esposito: 6*1st, 7*top3, 8*top5, 9*top10

Brett Hull: 3*1st, 4*top3, 4*top5, 8*top10

Pavel Bure: 3*1st, 4*top3, 5*top5, 5*top10

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

How in the world can someone who has as many top10 finishes as Hull/Howe have top3 finishes be ranked above them?

 

[nowhereman]

... and the true competition Ovechkin has for #1 goal-scorer all-time - Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull - get zero votes combined

Here are the counts of top1, top3, top5, top10 finishes for most folks mentioned in the OP

Howe: 5*1st, 12*top3, 14*top5, 19*top10

Hull: 7*1st, 10*top3, 12*top5, 13*top10

Richard: 5*1st, 9*top3, 13*top5, 14*top10

Ovechkin: 9*1st, 11*top3, 13*top5, 13*top10

Gretzky: 5*1st, 5*top3, 8*top5, 9*top10

Bossy: 2*1st, 7*top3, 8*top5, 9*top10

Lemieux: 3*1st, 6*top3, 6*top5, 9*top10

Esposito: 6*1st, 7*top3, 8*top5, 9*top10

Brett Hull: 3*1st, 4*top3, 4*top5, 8*top10

Pavel Bure: 3*1st, 4*top3, 5*top5, 5*top10

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

How in the world can someone who has as many top10 finishes as Hull/Howe have top3 finishes be ranked above them?

Depends how much emphasis you put on peak goal scoring, in tandem with career consistency/sustained success/longevity. For instance, Gretzky may not have as many top finishes as Hull but he has three seasons (83-84, 81-82 and 84-85) that are arguably better than Hull's best and those two best seasons are quite a bit ahead. Lemieux's peak dominance is also clearly ahead of Hull but he doesn't have anywhere near the longevity and consistency, true. On the other hand, Howe does have the one season (52-53) that is comparable to Gretzky/Lemieux's peak but I also feel Wayne/Mario have a few more higher-end seasons ahead of Howe.

I think Gretzky and Lemieux were better goalscorers at their best but you're right that they have less top finishes. If you value peak highly, it's not a stretch to rank Howe or Hull behind Lemieux and Gretzky. They're all pretty close and it can come down to how much emphasis you want to place on the difference between "best" and "greatest".

 

[Syckle78]

No one's calling Mike Gartner the best goal scorer.

That isn't the point. He has more goals than the players listed. do you believe he is a better goal scorer than them?

 

[Zuluss]

For instance, Gretzky may not have as many top finishes as Hull but he has three seasons (83-84, 81-82 and 84-85) that are arguably better than Hull's best and those two best seasons are quite a bit ahead. Lemieux's peak dominance is also clearly ahead of Hull but he doesn't have anywhere near the longevity and consistency, true.

OK, let's look at % leads over #5 in goals:

Hull Sr 86-80-56-54-44-32-30-26-10-9-0

Richard 79-62-61-59-42-31-31-6-4-0-0

Howe 81-74-65-42-31-30-27-15-11-10-7-3-0-0

Gretzky 70-67-33-27-19-6-0-0

Ovechkin 51-43-40-39-38-32-19-17-17-16-7-4-0

Lemieux 67-37-35-4-4

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The numbers do not bear out the assertion that Gretzky's peak as a goal-scorer was higher than Bobby Hull's or Howe's.
Lemieux' resume outside of 1988/89 is rather sad for this company.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Depends how much emphasis you put on peak goal scoring, in tandem with career consistency/sustained success/longevity. For instance, Gretzky may not have as many top finishes as Hull but he has three seasons (83-84, 81-82 and 84-85) that are arguably better than Hull's best and those two best seasons are quite a bit ahead. Lemieux's peak dominance is also clearly ahead of Hull but he doesn't have anywhere near the longevity and consistency, true. On the other hand, Howe does have the one season (52-53) that is comparable to Gretzky/Lemieux's peak but I also feel Wayne/Mario have a few more higher-end seasons ahead of Howe.

I think Gretzky and Lemieux were better goalscorers at their best but you're right that they have less top finishes. If you value peak highly, it's not a stretch to rank Howe or Hull behind Lemieux and Gretzky. They're all pretty close and it can come down to how much emphasis you want to place on the difference between "best" and "greatest".

Hulls 65/66 beats any Gretzky season but I guess it's arguable. Not sure what metric you're looking at to conclude Lemieux is "clearly ahead" of Hull for peak goal scoring. Hull won the Rocket by 22 goals in a 70 game season, even though he only played 65 games. He scored 54 goals while no one else scored 33. Only 5 other 30 goal scorers who played 70, 70, 70, 68 and 68 games to his 65. Zuluss posted the % lead over 5th and I'm pretty sure Hull would win for % over 2nd and 10th as well. Curious why/how you say Lemieux is clearly ahead.

 

[nowhereman]

OK, let's look at % leads over #5 in goals:

Hull Sr 86-80-56-54-44-32-30-26-10-9-0

Richard 79-62-61-59-42-31-31-6-4-0-0

Howe 81-74-65-42-31-30-27-15-11-10-7-3-0-0

Gretzky 70-67-33-27-19-6-0-0

Ovechkin 51-43-40-39-38-32-19-17-17-16-7-4-0

Lemieux 67-37-35-4-4

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The numbers do not bear out the assertion that Gretzky's peak as a goal-scorer was higher than Bobby Hull's or Howe's.
Lemieux' resume outside of 1988/89 is rather sad for this company.

% over 5th only tells you so much. I'd say that Gretzky's 83-84 season and Mario's 88-89 season are clearly ahead of any of Hull's mid-60s seasons, based on sheer numbers alone. Actually, I'd go so far as to say that Bobby isn't even the Hull who peaked highest in the goalscoring department and that Brett's best seasons are better. Howe's 52-53 season is pretty much up there with any of Wayne or Mario's best years but the latter two have a few more in and around this level.

Hulls 65/66 beats any Gretzky season but I guess it's arguable. Not sure what metric you're looking at to conclude Lemieux is "clearly ahead" of Hull for peak goal scoring. Hull won the Rocket by 22 goals in a 70 game season, even though he only played 65 games. He scored 54 goals while no one else scored 33. Only 5 other 30 goal scorers who played 70, 70, 70, 68 and 68 games to his 65. Zuluss posted the % lead over 5th and I'm pretty sure Hull would win for % over 2nd and 10th as well. Curious why/how you say Lemieux is clearly ahead.

Beyond historical context, you could also look at adjusted numbers. It's obviously not a perfect formula but comparing eras is hard enough as it is already.

 

[Zuluss]

I'd say that Gretzky's 83-84 season and Mario's 88-89 season are clearly ahead of any of Hull's mid-60s seasons, based on sheer numbers alone.

Based on sheer numbers, Steve Shutt probably peaked higher than Howe as a goal-scorer - Shutt did score 60 goals, and Howe never scored 50.
Any measure that measures dominance over peers, be it VsX or % lead over #5, will call into doubt the idea that Gretzky and especially Lemieux peaked higher as goal-scorers than Bobby Hull and Gordie Howe.

 

[The Moose is Loose]

Ovi, Gretzky and then a big gap to the next name

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

That isn't the point. He has more goals than the players listed. do you believe he is a better goal scorer than them?

I'm not going to argue a point that doesn't matter and a point I wasn't making in the first place. Your anti-argument doesn't work if I don't bother. You can f***ing argue with someone else about Gartner's ranking.

Gretzky has the most goals on a single season. He has the league overall record for goals. He scored 50 or more eight consecutive seasons and 50 nine times overall. Gretzky compensates for a lack of goal scoring longevity by his dominance. He lead the NHL in goals five times and his competition was pretty good.

I didn't even mention 50 in 39 until now. He scored 92.

All I said my original post can be boiled down to "wait and see."

 

[Zuluss]

Gretzky has the most goals on a single season. He has the league overall record for goals. He scored 50 or more eight consecutive seasons and 50 nine times overall.

In Gretzky years, 50 goals were more or less a synonym for a top10 finish in goals, something Howe, Bobby Hull, Ovechkin, Richard achieved more that 9 times.
Between 80/81 and 89/90, there were 75 instances of a player scoring 50 goals - take away Gretzky's 9 times, and that makes 66 instances.
Between 07/08 and and 20/21, there were 15 instances of a player scoring 50 goals - and 7 instances of that are Ovechkin seasons. So only 8 other 50-goal seasons remain.
66 vs. 8 is quite a difference in the scoring environment

Or put it another way - how high you have to cut in the 80s to achieve "exclude Gretzky and only 8 such seasons will remain?" - 68 goals is the number.
So Ovechkin's 50-goal seasons would have been 70-goal seasons in the 80s, and his 65-goal season would not have been too far from 92 goals.
How many 50-goal seasons does Ovechkin have? Eight
How many 70-goal season does Gretzky have? Four

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Lol why the rage? Just making the point either goal totals with no context are all that matter or they aren't.

There's no rage, this is just how I talk. That's a point that's irrelevant. Gretzky has the accomplishments and that's why he's in the argument in the first place.

 

[filinski77]

I'm not going to argue a point that doesn't matter and a point I wasn't making in the first place. Your anti-argument doesn't work if I don't bother. You can f***ing argue with someone else about Gartner's ranking.

Gretzky has the most goals on a single season. He has the league overall record for goals. He scored 50 or more eight consecutive seasons and 50 nine times overall. Gretzky compensates for a lack of goal scoring longevity by his dominance. He lead the NHL in goals five times and his competition was pretty good.

I didn't even mention 50 in 39 until now. He scored 92.

All I said my original post can be boiled down to "wait and see."

By those same metrics (mostly looking at raw numbers) would you say that Bossy and Dionne are better than Crosby and McDavid?

They have more points overall, higher single season highs in points, more 100 point seasons.

At the end of the day, you have to realize that the era that guys played in DOES matter. Gretzky may have peaked very high as a goalscorer, but acting like Ovechkin *needs* to pass Gretzky in a raw perspective is just completely ignorant.

 

[nowhereman]

Based on sheer numbers, Steve Shutt probably peaked higher than Howe as a goal-scorer - Shutt did score 60 goals, and Howe never scored 50.
Any measure that measures dominance over peers, be it VsX or % lead over #5, will call into doubt the idea that Gretzky and especially Lemieux peaked higher as goal-scorers than Bobby Hull and Gordie Howe.

Obviously I'm speaking relative to era. It's why I think OV's current career goal numbers, albeit less than Gretzky's, are already more impressive (and OV still has more runway to add to that). Thus, I think 87 and 92 goal seasons in the early 80s are better than 54 and 58 goals (from Hull) in the mid-60s.

 

[ESH]

By those same metrics (mostly looking at raw numbers) would you say that Bossy and Dionne are better than Crosby and McDavid?

They have more points overall, higher single season highs in points, more 100 point seasons.

At the end of the day, you have to realize that the era that guys played in DOES matter. Gretzky may have peaked very high as a goalscorer, but acting like Ovechkin *needs* to pass Gretzky in a raw perspective is just completely ignorant.

What you’re doing is creating a strawman argument, and it’s not helpful if you want to actually have a constructive conversation

 

[Zuluss]

Obviously I'm speaking relative to era. It's why I think OV's current career goal numbers, albeit less than Gretzky's, are already more impressive (and OV still has more runway to add to that). Thus, I think 87 and 92 goal seasons in the early 80s are better than 54 and 58 goals (from Hull) in the mid-60s.

	1st	2nd	5th	10th	lead vs #2	lead vs #5	lead vs #10
1965-66	54	32	30	28	69%	93%	80%
1981-82	92	64	54	50	44%	84%	70%
1983-84	87	56	52	47	55%	85%	67%
1988-89	85	70	51	46	21%	85%	67%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

What would be the metric under which Hull's 1965/66 is worse than Gretzky's 1981/82 or 1983/84?
The table above does not show any.

 

[Regal]

	1st	2nd	5th	10th	lead vs #2	lead vs #5	lead vs #10
1965-66	54	32	30	28	69%	93%	80%
1981-82	92	64	54	50	44%	84%	70%
1983-84	87	56	52	47	55%	85%	67%
1988-89	85	70	51	46	21%	85%	67%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

What would be the metric under which Hull's 1965/66 is worse than Gretzky's 1981/82 or 1983/84?
The table above does not show any.

I do think there’s some questions by this method about how the competition compares as a 6 team league means there’s limited top line opportunities for players to have surprise seasons to compete with the typical leaders (for example, Dennis Maruk probably never gets the opportunity to finish third in goals in ‘82 in a 6 team league), but at best it would bring them roughly on par

 

[centipede2233]

Ovechkin deserves the title of greatest at this point. I think Lemieux was the best though.

This is the correct answer. Lemieux is the best goal scorer. Ovie is the greatest goal scorer. Lemieux’s goals per game trumps ovie quit comfortably.

 

[Thenameless]

For me, Mario is the best.

Wayne is the greatest. Highest regular season and highest career total.

If Ovechkin surpasses Wayne's career total, then I'll give him the greatest mantle. He still wouldn't have the highest regular season, but having the most Rockets and the highest career total eclipses that.

 

[blundluntman]

Until Ovi breaks the record, it's Gretzky

 

[Albatros]

Ovechkin by a wide margin. Who comes second is more interesting, might give that to Brett Hull.

 

[daver]

Richard, Howe, Hull, Wayne, Mario, Ovechkin

All have good arguments for greatest/best depending on how you define "greatest".

Richard's playoff goalscoring added to his generational regular season accolades
Howe's elite prime and longevity
Hull's dominance in his prime and arguably highest peak season in 65/66
Wayne's raw totals in one season, arguably highest peak season, and total all-time
Mario's GPG throughout his career
Ovechkin's elite peak and consistently elite and long prime - the Gordie Howe of goalscorers

I like Mario as the "Best" and Wayne, Hull, and OV battling it out for "greatest."

It should be noted though, OV is the only player listed that doesn't crack the Top Ten players all-time.

 

[bobholly39]

Greatest - Ovechkin #1. For the longest time I held on to Gretzky as greatest. It's an easy title to bestow on him, since he has the best single season peak, the best career numbers, the best playoff goal totals, the best prime for goals (take his first 10 seasons, pace it out to his full career pace, and it's not 894 goals but 1223 goals he ends up with....ridiculous).

But I think Ovechkin is ahead at this point. His consistency year over year....yeah he's taken Gretzky over in the long run.

For "Best" goal-scorer - I still have Lemieux at #1. But I do think i'd have Ovechkin #2 by now, above Gretzky or others. Hull (sr) and Richard make up the top 5 in both categories imo

 

[bobholly39]

Esposito?

No, but he should probably be in this poll as well.

I think the answer is so obvious that you guys just expected him to be in the poll

Ahh...yeah. The Rocket

That's crazy I read through the first page and couldn't for the life of me figure it out who was missing....I didn't even think of Esposito, and certainly not Rocket. When I first saw the comment, only name I could think of was Brett Hull - who imo certainly belongs in such a list, probably ~top 10 or so, but this seemed to be overselling him.

Crazy how Rocket got completely overlooked by me too.

Rocket actually has a claim for greatest too. His playoff heroics/legendary status - that goes well with the term "greatest" imo. I don't have him #1, but definitely top 5