Grant Fuhr vs Vladislav Tretiak

[Fish on The Sand]

Grant Fuhr is probably the most overrated goaltender of all time. In the weakest era in nhl history for any position he failed to be noticably better than crap like Hrudey and Healey. He rode shotgun for 4 cups but his contribution was not only negligable at best, but possibly detrimental.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Grant Fuhr is probably the most overrated goaltender of all time. In the weakest era in nhl history for any position he failed to be noticably better than crap like Hrudey and Healey. He rode shotgun for 4 cups but his contribution was not only negligable at best, but possibly detrimental.

Fuhr was at worst a top-5 goalie in the league throughout much of the 80's, weak as that era may have been for goaltenders. Calling his contribution detrimental is the most assanine comment I've come across since somebody suggested he was no better than Glenn Healy. Oh wait, that was you as well. How many times did Glenn Healy or Kelly Hrudey save their team's bacon in Game 7 of the Stanley Cup final?

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Fuhr was at worst a top-5 goalie in the league throughout much of the 80's, weak as that era may have been for goaltenders. Calling his contribution detrimental is the most assanine comment I've come across since somebody suggested he was no better than Glenn Healy. Oh wait, that was you as well. How many times did Glenn Healy or Kelly Hrudey save their team's bacon in Game 7 of the Stanley Cup final?

the only reason they were in game 7 was because Fuhr was massively outplayed by his counterpart. I never said Healey and Hrudey were better, just that Fuhr didn`t really stand out from them. Anybody could have won 4 stanley cups with the Oilers. Hell, even Bill Randford won a cup with the Oilers.

 

[reggiep]

This is ridiculous. Look at all the playoff games the fuhr and the oilers played compared to the regular season games when it comes to scoring. Sure they were some blowouts but alof of the games were 3-2 2-1 4-3 ect ect.
Grant Fuhr is one of the best money goaltenders peroid. People say fuhr never had to win games by him some. I saw this dude play for nearly 20 years and hes won plenty of games by himself. In 1983 oilers went to the finals but moog was the goalie. The isles domolished the oilers. In 1984 with fuhr finally taking reigns over he shut out and outdueled billy smith in the opening game 1-0 in ny, in which that single game changed the whole complexion of that series. Grant Fuhr never won games by himself? By shutting out a team that has won 4 cups in a row in the first game on the road in the finals itself is an accomplishment? So whats the argument now? The oilers invented the left wing lock in 1983?
Wayne greatky and Jarri Kurri and others played a left wing lock, oh come on give me a break.
Grant Fuhr played in the most wide open era in nhl history on the most wide open team in nhl history. Look at Patrick Roy's stats in the 1980's his gaa was around 3 as well and who had a better defense Montreal Or Edmonton? Roy's rook season his gaa was 3.35. Hell hes been hovring around the 3 goal mark as late as 1993. In 1993 when he went on to win the cup with the canadiens his gaa in the reg season was 3.20.

Hardly no goal tender in that era had a good gaa. No nuetral zone trap, it was the wild west shootout and also the equipment was still twice as small it is today. Ive also seen the argument that bill ranford also won the cup well so what. When ranford won the cup with edmonton in the year 1990 that was one of the best goaltending performances i ever seen especially in the finals. How many times did he stop 50 plus shots that playoffs enroute to that cup? He won the conn smythe enough said.
And most people still almost forget in 1991 Jari Kurri left the team for europe and grant fuhr regained the job and played for the most part brilliantly in the playoffs.
He almost got the oilers back to the finals and this was with out gretzky kurri and coffey. The oilers had a 7 game war with the flames, and an equal tough round that ended in 6 games with the kings where they won 3 games in a row in double overtime. They lost to the minnesota north stars that year but that team was done and didnt look the same at all in that series from the pervious ones against the flames and kings, they had nothing left. It didnt really matter if they beat the stars they would of lost to the pens anyways.

 

[Senor Catface]

Grant Fuhr is probably the most overrated goaltender of all time. In the weakest era in nhl history for any position he failed to be noticably better than crap like Hrudey and Healey. He rode shotgun for 4 cups but his contribution was not only negligable at best, but possibly detrimental.

This is another example of someone looking at stats and making a conclusion. You'll lie and say you saw Fuhr play, but you didn't. If you had you would understand that Fuhr faced an incredibly amount of odd man rushes due to the Oilers all balls in strategy.

 

[Noeller]

I can't believe it hasn't been brought up till now, but do you young'ns realize how banged up Fuhr was in the later part of his career? Grant not only had 2 bad knees, but he separated his shoulder no less than 3 times over the course of his career, with the infamous Pronger/Kyprios incident from 1996 being the final straw.

You want to know why Grant was tailing off after his 30s, well he was held together with duct tape and gum. And, not that it's any excuse, but how hard was it on his body recovering from the substance abuse situation?

I'll always remember Wayne Gretzky's autobiography: "...With the game on the line, if I could have only one goaltender in the whole world, I'd take Grant every time..."

And call me old-school, but I'll take Gretz's word on anything, any day of the week and twice on Sundays...

 

[Bear of Bad News]

And call me old-school, but I'll take Gretz's word on anything, any day of the week and twice on Sundays...

In all fairness, most players are generally supportive of their teammates in public.

 

[FissionFire]

This thread really makes me wonder just where Tretiak would rank all-time amongst goaltenders. I get the feeling that he's be anywhere from 3rd to 15th on most lists. Is there really any other player whose status amongst the greats at their respective position is so widely viewed?

 

[MXD]

This thread really makes me wonder just where Tretiak would rank all-time amongst goaltenders. I get the feeling that he's be anywhere from 3rd to 15th on most lists. Is there really any other player whose status amongst the greats at their respective position is so widely viewed?

Well... 3rd means either 3 of those 5 guys would be LOWER than Tretiak : Roy, Plante, Hall, Hasek and Sawchuck, and that would make really no sense.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

And call me old-school, but I'll take Gretz's word on anything, any day of the week and twice on Sundays...

so you think Peter Forsberg is better than one of the following.


Lemieux
Gretzkey
Orr
Howe
Shore


Interesting...

 

[arrbez]

so you think Peter Forsberg is better than one of the following.


Lemieux
Gretzkey
Orr
Howe
Shore


Interesting...

Yeah, everyone Gretzky ever played with or against is the greatest player he ever saw. The man is just too nice.

 

[reggiep]

Vintage grant fuhr in the 1987 canada cup against the russians. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le8ITY8WEuY this was early in the round robin tournament.
In game 2 of the game series canada out shot the russians 61-50 and the scoring chances were canada 43 the russians 40. Now slowly news is coming out and Igor Larionov himself stated that russians during that whole tournament atleast half the players were taking injections and many believe it was steroids. Im not sayin all were taking them but the trainer made it mandatory for many russian players to take them but igor said that he never took them and refused it everytime the trainers tried to inject him.
When larionov and his russian teammate krutov who was so dominate in the 80's came over to the nhl and started with the canucks, many reports indicate by the cancucks trainers themselves that krutov was just so awful because of the lack of steroids and the trainers for the canucks staff refused to supply him and inject him with anything. Igor Larionov has mentioned this himself. Just look at the games back then the russians looked so strong on the puck that everytime they took it in canadas zone they made the canadian defense look like swiss cheese.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Imo Fuhr is one of the most overrated goaltenders ever to play in the NHL. I am not saying that he was a bad goaltender as relative to the goaltending of his era he was a good goaltender.

Fuhr was positionally awful and had almost no ability to control his rebounds. He made up for alot of his shortcomings with unprecedented quickness and reflexes. Many of the more spectacular saves that he made were because he was poorly positioned and had to defy physics just to stop a puck that would be routine save for a more technically sound goatender (such as Mike Liut). The funny thing is that when the rebound off of the unnecessarily spectacular save was shoveled into the net, the announcers would praise Fuhr for his extrahuman attempt instead of recognizing that the play was in fact a creation of Fuhr's ineptness.

Fuhr's only spot among the all time goaltending greats is as an entertainer, imo if Mike Palmateer played in his prime for the Oilers during their dynasty years he would be getting the same recognition as Fuhr as both goalies had very similar approaches and skillsets.

It is hard to give Fuhr alot of credit as a clutch goaltender when he played for the most dominant offensive hockey team in the history of the NHL. You would think that the knowledge of having Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson and co. on your team would take just a little bit of the pressure off of the goalie to not surrender the tying or go-ahead goal.

 

[supaman]

Imo Fuhr is one of the most overrated goaltenders ever to play in the NHL. I am not saying that he was a bad goaltender as relative to the goaltending of his era he was a good goaltender.

Fuhr was positionally awful and had almost no ability to control his rebounds. He made up for alot of his shortcomings with unprecedented quickness and reflexes. Many of the more spectacular saves that he made were because he was poorly positioned and had to defy physics just to stop a puck that would be routine save for a more technically sound goatender (such as Mike Liut). The funny thing is that when the rebound off of the unnecessarily spectacular save was shoveled into the net, the announcers would praise Fuhr for his extrahuman attempt instead of recognizing that the play was in fact a creation of Fuhr's ineptness.

Fuhr's only spot among the all time goaltending greats is as an entertainer, imo if Mike Palmateer played in his prime for the Oilers during their dynasty years he would be getting the same recognition as Fuhr as both goalies had very similar approaches and skillsets.

It is hard to give Fuhr alot of credit as a clutch goaltender when he played for the most dominant offensive hockey team in the history of the NHL. You would think that the knowledge of having Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson and co. on your team would take just a little bit of the pressure off of the goalie to not surrender the tying or go-ahead goal.

So what about all the 2-1 games or the 4-3 games or the 3-2 games. The oilers didn't play a sound defence. They didn't really play defence. Just look at Fuhr's playoff record in the 80's. 66-25 with a 3.03 gaa. You can't just be a mediocre goalie on an offensive team in the playoffs and win games. Those are the top teams your playing against. There was no trap either. It was just straight up offence.

 

[supaman]

ACCOLADES:
Winner, Stewart (Butch) Paul Memorial Trophy, 1979-80.
Named to Western Hockey League All-Star First Team, 1979-80.
Named to Western Hockey League All-Star First Team, 1980-81.
Winner, Western Hockey League Top Goaltender Trophy, 1980-81.
Played in National Hockey League All-Star Game, 1982.
Named to The Sporting News All-Star Second Team, 1981-82.
Named to National Hockey League All-Star Second Team, 1981-82.
Played in National Hockey League All-Star Game, 1984.
Recorded National Hockey League single-season record for most points by a goaltender (14), 1983-84.
Member of Stanley Cup Champion Edmonton Oilers, 1984.
Played in National Hockey League All-Star Game, 1985.
Member of Stanley Cup Champion Edmonton Oilers, 1985.
Played in National Hockey League All-Star Game, 1986.
Named Most Valuable Player of National Hockey League All-Star game, 1986.
Named to The Sporting News All-Star Second Team, 1985-86.
Member of Stanley Cup Champion Edmonton Oilers, 1987.
Played in National Hockey League All-Star Game, 1988.
Member of Stanley Cup Champion Edmonton Oilers, 1988.
Winner, Vezina Trophy, 1987-88.
Named to The Sporting News All-Star First Team, 1987-88.
Named to National Hockey League All-Star First Team, 1987-88.
Played in National Hockey League All-Star Game, 1989.
Member of Stanley Cup Champion Edmonton Oilers, 1990.
Named Sabres' Met Life Player of the Month, March 1993.
Rated #13 in Hockey Stars Presents "The Top 50 Netminders in Pro Hockey", November 1993.
Shared (with Dominik Hasek) Jennings Trophy, 1993-94.
Rated #14 in Hockey Stars Presents "The Top 50 Netminders in Pro Hockey", November 1994.
Played for Team Western Canada in NHLPA 4-on-4 challenge, November 10-12, 1994.
Goaltender, Wayne Gretzky's All Star Touring Squad, December 1994.
Stopped penalty shot (Dave Hannan), October 22, 1995.
Rated #18 in Hockey Stars Presents "The Top 50 Netminders in Pro Hockey", November 1995.
Finished sixth in voting for Vezina Trophy, 1995-96.
Finished sixth in voting for Hart Memorial Trophy, 1995-96.
Finished sixth in voting for National Hockey League All-Star team, 1995-96.
Elected to Hockey Hall of Fame, June 11, 2003.
Number "31" retired by Edmonton Oilers, October 9, 2003
Holds National Hockey League single-season record for most games played by a goaltender (79), 1995-96.
Holds National Hockey League single-season record for most consecutive appearances (76), 1995-96.

(Credit to hockeygoalies.org)

 

[Bear of Bad News]

ACCOLADES:
Winner, Stewart (Butch) Paul Memorial Trophy, 1979-80.
Named to Western Hockey League All-Star First Team, 1979-80.
Named to Western Hockey League All-Star First Team, 1980-81.
Winner, Western Hockey League Top Goaltender Trophy, 1980-81.
Played in National Hockey League All-Star Game, 1982.
Named to The Sporting News All-Star Second Team, 1981-82.
Named to National Hockey League All-Star Second Team, 1981-82.
Played in National Hockey League All-Star Game, 1984.
Recorded National Hockey League single-season record for most points by a goaltender (14), 1983-84.
Member of Stanley Cup Champion Edmonton Oilers, 1984.
Played in National Hockey League All-Star Game, 1985.
Member of Stanley Cup Champion Edmonton Oilers, 1985.
Played in National Hockey League All-Star Game, 1986.
Named Most Valuable Player of National Hockey League All-Star game, 1986.
Named to The Sporting News All-Star Second Team, 1985-86.
Member of Stanley Cup Champion Edmonton Oilers, 1987.
Played in National Hockey League All-Star Game, 1988.
Member of Stanley Cup Champion Edmonton Oilers, 1988.
Winner, Vezina Trophy, 1987-88.
Named to The Sporting News All-Star First Team, 1987-88.
Named to National Hockey League All-Star First Team, 1987-88.
Played in National Hockey League All-Star Game, 1989.
Member of Stanley Cup Champion Edmonton Oilers, 1990.
Named Sabres' Met Life Player of the Month, March 1993.
Rated #13 in Hockey Stars Presents "The Top 50 Netminders in Pro Hockey", November 1993.
Shared (with Dominik Hasek) Jennings Trophy, 1993-94.
Rated #14 in Hockey Stars Presents "The Top 50 Netminders in Pro Hockey", November 1994.
Played for Team Western Canada in NHLPA 4-on-4 challenge, November 10-12, 1994.
Goaltender, Wayne Gretzky's All Star Touring Squad, December 1994.
Stopped penalty shot (Dave Hannan), October 22, 1995.
Rated #18 in Hockey Stars Presents "The Top 50 Netminders in Pro Hockey", November 1995.
Finished sixth in voting for Vezina Trophy, 1995-96.
Finished sixth in voting for Hart Memorial Trophy, 1995-96.
Finished sixth in voting for National Hockey League All-Star team, 1995-96.
Elected to Hockey Hall of Fame, June 11, 2003.
Number "31" retired by Edmonton Oilers, October 9, 2003
Holds National Hockey League single-season record for most games played by a goaltender (79), 1995-96.
Holds National Hockey League single-season record for most consecutive appearances (76), 1995-96.

So are you gonna source my page or what?

 

[supaman]

So are you gonna source my page or what?

Fixed. My bad. btw, awesome site.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Fixed. My bad. btw, awesome site.

Thanks!

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

So what about all the 2-1 games or the 4-3 games or the 3-2 games. The oilers didn't play a sound defence. They didn't really play defence. Just look at Fuhr's playoff record in the 80's. 66-25 with a 3.03 gaa. You can't just be a mediocre goalie on an offensive team in the playoffs and win games. Those are the top teams your playing against. There was no trap either. It was just straight up offence.

It is a myth that the Oilers didn't play defence as they had a great defence core outside of Coffey with Lowe, Huddy, Smith and company. Messier and Kurri are two of the greatest 2 way forwards of all time. Andy Moog also had very good numbers in Edmonton as a matter of fact he posted better svpct and GAA in Edmonton and after Edmonton than Fuhr. If you look at Fuhr's Edmonton numbers his SvPCT was brutal most years.

 

[Koivu84*]

Grant Fuhr is in a league of his own, Tretiak is overrated he played on stacked Soviet teams.

 

[Hennessy]

Tretiak was quite possibly the greatest goalie ever. Fuhr doesn't come close to the man and I suspect either homerism or nationalism is making many of you convince yourselves Fuhr was better.

 

[supaman]

It is a myth that the Oilers didn't play defence as they had a great defence core outside of Coffey with Lowe, Huddy, Smith and company. Messier and Kurri are two of the greatest 2 way forwards of all time. Andy Moog also had very good numbers in Edmonton as a matter of fact he posted better svpct and GAA in Edmonton and after Edmonton than Fuhr. If you look at Fuhr's Edmonton numbers his SvPCT was brutal most years.

Moog's all time playoff record was 68-57 with a 3.04 gaa. Fuhr's was 66-25 with a 3.03 gaa just with the oilers during the 80's. Thats not including 90-91. Career it was 92-50 with a 2.92 gaa. You are right that they did have some good defensive players. But did you ever see those games. Fuhr was left alone alot of the time.

Also Fuhr stopped all 4 of the penalty shots he had on him while he was an oiler. 2 of which were in the playoffs, which is when it really counts. Actually, he has only allowed 2 goals on the 9 penalty shots he has had on him.

 

[reggiep]

Estimated_prophet the oilers defense was awful. You mentioned coffey? When did coffey ever play defence? Look at his numbers he registered over 100 pts in some seasons this guy was at the other end scoring points. He said it the best at the heritage classic game a few years back between oilers and habs. Coffey was asked if he was going to block any shots this game and he said "are you crazy, you never seen me block any shots during my whole career so why would i start now"/
Steve smith was a pilon who cost them the cup in 86, with smith huddy randy gregg. These guys were awful, they might of been good now witht the neutral zone trap and stuff the teams impliment today but back then they were so immobile they would constantly get caught on odd man rushes.
There only solid defensemen was kevin lowe he was solid and jeff beukeboom wasnt bad either. But everyone else defensively on that team they were pilons back there.
Another note your comparing goaltending and watching grant fuhr's style back then well the game has changed. The goalies back then dont have the big fancy equipment these guys do today or the different drills to enhance there techniques or speciailized goaltending systems that is used today. I see where u get hes off his angles and stuff and had to make up for it with his athleticism and so did most everyone else that era. You cant compare how goalies play today and back then. With the coaching and how the style of goaltending has evolved its easy to look at games 20 years ago and say see look it this or that. Grant Fuhr at his time in the 80's was the best goaltender in the world.

Grant Fuhrs playoff stats the year he went to the finals and won. Look how many the oilers scored and how many he let in. Regardless of the regular season the oilers werent scoring 7 or 8 goals a game in the playoffs nor was grant letting in 5 or 6.

# 04/08/87: L 2-5 defeat vs. Los Angeles (Melanson).
# 04/12/87: W 6-3 victory at Los Angeles (Melanson).
# 04/14/87: W 5-4 victory vs. Los Angeles (Melanson).
# 04/21/87: W 3-2 OT victory vs. Winnipeg (Berthiaume).
# 04/23/87: W 5-3 victory vs. Winnipeg (Reddick).
# 04/25/87: W 5-2 victory at Winnipeg (Reddick).
# 04/27/87: W 4-2 victory at Winnipeg (Berthiaume, Reddick).
# 05/05/87: L 1-3 defeat vs. Detroit (Stefan).
# 05/07/87: W 4-1 victory vs. Detroit (Stefan).
# 05/09/87: W 2-1 victory at Detroit (Stefan).
# 05/11/87: W 3-2 victory at Detroit (Hanlon).
# 05/13/87: W 6-3 victory vs. Detroit (Stefan).
# 05/17/87: W 4-2 victory vs. Philadelphia (Hextall).
# 05/20/87: W 3-2 OT victory vs. Philadelphia (Hextall).
# 05/22/87: L 3-5 defeat at Philadelphia (Hextall).
# 05/24/87: W 4-1 victory at Philadelphia (Hextall).
# 05/26/87: L 3-4 defeat vs. Philadelphia (Hextall).
# 05/28/87: L 2-3 defeat at Philadelphia (Hextall).
# 05/30/87: W 3-1 victory vs. Philadelphia (Hextall).

# 04/06/88: W 7-4 victory vs. Winnipeg (Berthiaume).
# 04/07/88: W 3-2 victory vs. Winnipeg (Berthiaume).
# 04/09/88: L 4-6 defeat at Winnipeg (Berthiaume).
# 04/10/88: W 5-3 victory at Winnipeg (Berthiaume).
# 04/12/88: W 6-2 victory vs. Winnipeg (Berthiaume).
# 04/19/88: W 3-1 victory at Calgary (Vernon).
# 04/21/88: W 5-4 OT victory at Calgary (Vernon).
# 04/23/88: W 4-2 victory vs. Calgary (Vernon).
# 04/25/88: W 6-4 victory vs. Calgary (Vernon, Wamsley).
# 05/03/88: W 4-1 victory vs. Detroit (Stefan).
# 05/05/88: W 5-3 victory vs. Detroit (Stefan, Hanlon).
# 05/07/88: L 2-5 defeat at Detroit (Hanlon).
# 05/09/88: W 4-3 OT victory at Detroit (Hanlon).
# 05/11/88: W 8-4 victory vs. Detroit (Stefan).
# 05/18/88: W 2-1 victory vs. Boston (Moog).
# 05/20/88: W 4-2 victory vs. Boston (Lemelin).
# 05/22/88: W 6-3 victory at Boston (Lemelin).
# 05/24/88: - 3-3 tie at Boston (Moog) [game suspended due to power outage].
# 05/26/88: W 6-3 victory vs. Boston (Moog)

Ill post the 1984 and 1985 stats when i can find them but all throughout the playoffs how many 10-8 or 7-6 games were there? Most of the when the oilers did score 5 or 6 he only allowed 2 or 3. Sure in he regular season they were alot of high scoring games 7-6 ect ect but in the playoff times you dont really see that. And in the 80's even though playoff time how much could the oilers tightenly up defensively?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

How come you removed shots and saves from that list? Those were hard to find.

 

[jiggs 10]

It wouldn't help his arguement, so he removed them.

Fuhr was not a HOF goalie, he was a goalie on a great team at the right time. Three different goalies won Cups for the Oilers in their 7 season span (Moog, Fuhr, Ranford), so to say Fuhr was the main superstar is incorrect. He was only the starter for a couple of seasons in Edmonton, then coasted on his reputation for about 6 years. He did have the one year in St. Louis where he played nearly every game and had decent numbers. But after that (Toronto, etc.) he was average at best, and below average at worst. Not the kind of goalie I want in my HOF.