Grading the off season moves

[Captain Bowie]

Schmidt was an absolute coup. I have no idea how in the world Benning pulled that off, but it single-handedly redeemed what had been a complete tire fire to that point.

It was awesome. Vegas was obviously desperate to clear space for Pie, and good on Jim for being ready and able to take advantage of the situation.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Markstrom really saved the team last year and Holtby was pretty bad. That said, goal tending does tend to fluctuate a lot, except for the truly elite guys. I’d say that Markstrom clearly will be the better of the two this season but the gap probably narrows.
Demko is the wild card but this is what he’s been groomed for and after the playoffs I don’t think there’s anyway we should have chosen Markstrom long term over him. It was the right move in the long term to keep Demko and pass on that Markstrom contract even if goaltending does take a step back this year.

 

[Fatass]

Can't really say that about a goalie that hasn't been a finalist, let alone won a Vezina.

Ya, Marky is a bum, especially now he’s a Flame. No chance he ever wins a Vezina, or is finalist now. Good riddance. We don’t need him.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Ya, Marky is a bum, especially now he’s a Flame. No chance he ever wins a Vezina, or is finalist now. Good riddance. We don’t need him.

I know you're smart enough to know what a straw man argument is, and that this is a textbook example.

 

[Fatass]

I know you're smart enough to know what a straw man argument is, and that this is a textbook example.

Who’s arguing? We clearly took a significant step back in goal. And who the heck is talking about Ray Bolger?

 

[Captain Bowie]

Who’s arguing? We clearly took a significant step back in goal. And who the heck is talking about Ray Bolger?

I don't agree.

Demko/Holtby at $5.35M is an easy choice over Demko/Markstrom at $7.05M

That two mil probably means no Hamonic/Schmidt

Which really means:

Hughes - Myers
Edler - Juolevi
Benn - Chatfield

Markstrom
Demko

vs.

Hughes - Schmidt
Edler - Myers
Hamonic - Juolevi

Demko
Holtby

 

[Fatass]

I don't agree.

Demko/Holtby at $5.35M is an easy choice over Demko/Markstrom at $7.05M

That two mil probably means no Hamonic/Schmidt

Which really means:

Hughes - Myers
Edler - Juolevi
Benn - Chatfield

Markstrom
Demko

vs.

Hughes - Schmidt
Edler - Myers
Hamonic - Juolevi

Demko
Holtby

Understandable, you’re excited about the season. Still don’t get your allusion to Ray Bolger.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Understandable, you’re excited about the season. Still don’t get your allusion to Ray Bolger.

Who???

 

[Fatass]

Who???

Ray Bolger is the famous straw man from Wizard of Oz.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Ray Bolger is the famous straw man from Wizard of Oz.

So you're.... just gonna play dumb? You know I didn't say Markstrokm was a bum or sucked. Or that not a Vezina caliber = sucks.

 

[4Twenty]

So you're.... just gonna play dumb? You know I didn't say Markstrokm was a bum or sucked. Or that not a Vezina caliber = sucks.

Well I guess Bobrokvsky gave Florida Vezina level netminding last year since he won one once....same with ol' .897 Holtby right?

It kinda makes more sense to go with recent play and Markstrom, by all the advanced goaltending metrics was one of the best in the league the past two seasons.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Well I guess Bobrokvsky gave Florida Vezina level netminding last year since he won one once.

What?????

Are all of you purosely misunderstanding what I'm saying just to mess with me?? Who said anything about a vezina winner is enteranally vezina quality? How did you even come to that conclusion?? I'm baffled honestly.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Well I guess Bobrokvsky gave Florida Vezina level netminding last year since he won one once....same with ol' .897 Holtby right?

It kinda makes more sense to go with recent play and Markstrom, by all the advanced goaltending metrics was one of the best in the league the past two seasons.

BTW the same metrics suggest Holtby was much better than his save % suggests last year.

 

[rypper]

Schmidt was an absolute coup. I have no idea how in the world Benning pulled that off, but it single-handedly redeemed what had been a complete tire fire to that point.

I only wish Jim had more moves like this in his history.

 

[4Twenty]

What?????

Are all of you purosely misunderstanding what I'm saying just to mess with me?? Who said anything about a vezina winner is enteranally vezina quality? How did you even come to that conclusion?? I'm baffled honestly.

You suggested that a guy who provided top level goaltending last year, wasn't providing "vezina" quality because some hockey writers (mostly in bed when our team plays) didn't select him in the top 3. It was silly.

Luongo never won a Vezina, I'd argue quite easily he provided Vezina level goaltending over the majority of his prime.

 

[4Twenty]

BTW the same metrics suggest Holtby was much better than his save % suggests last year.

Not where I'm looking, can you link what you're looking at?

He gave up nearly 20 goals more than expected and his expected sv% was around .910, he finished with .897
Samsonov on the same team was expected to be roughly the same .912 and put up .912.....Hotlby had a rough year.....maybe the Canucks can outscore their goaltending issues like Washington did.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

This a direct quote from your first post, exactly as you typed it in - "Clearly, they (Ian Clark and management) chose Demko. the younger keeper.."

Where is the word after???

You only brought that in later when actual events didn't support your time line and you invented, without a single fact or source, your little scenario - like first they negotiated with Markstrom , then he wouldn't sign right away so then they asked Clark who should we keep, he said Demko, so then then they moved on from Markstrom ....

Fact is they were negotiating with Markstrom right up to the time he signed with Calgary. Also where is you evidence that Clark told management to go long term with Demko at this precise moment in negotiations. And don't tell me we can presume that. That would be a huge decision on Clark's part and you provide nothing to prove he did that. This just seems like a way of passing the buck to Clark. And if Benning is such an astute judge of players and talent shouldn't he be making his own decisions

Fact is, as well, that negotiations had been going on with Markstrom for months - all the way back into last season. Surely they would have been in contact with Clark throughout this period and knew his thoughts on Demko and Markstrom. Saying that Clark made some 11th hour intervention that caused Benning to move on from Markstrom seems ludicrous. If so, then Benning deserves heavy criticism since he should have such information long before negotiations started.

Also you continue to contradict yourself . You say, (and I'm quoting you directly here):

Benning wasn't boxed in..He could have simply given Marky the NMC, but given Demko's playoff performance..I don't believe they wanted to let him go....They could have afforded to run with both goalies this year, which would have given them more time to let things play out, and facilitate a trade for one of them.(before the ED?).

Well if had given Marky a NMC how he could facilitate a trade for him? If he had the NMC, Markstrom could have shot down any trade. Also, it would have created an ugly situation.

More than that you undercut the whole argument you been repeating through out. You say Benning couldn't give a NMC, that this was the key hang in negotiations, then you say but he could have simply given Marky the MNC. Again the fact is he couldn't give Markstrom a MNC (something you been saying constantly) without losing Demko in the ED. He was boxed in.

Also, you say (and again I'm quoting you directly)

"Knowing Markstrom was likely leaving for more term and a no-movement clause, Benning had to keep Demko".

But before you stated

"Markstrom demanding an NTC made the decision for all parties involved."

if he didnt get his desired No Movement Clause, he was moving on..end of story.

First you say it was only about the NMC (like end of story) yet now you say but was also term. Again I'm not contradicting you, you are contradicting yourself. If it was only about the NMC why bring up term

Moreover, though you somehow don't recognize it was also about money. Having both Markstrom and Demko was going to be too expensive and any number of sources recognize that and the lack of wiggle room Benning had was because of his self-created cap problems (some I referred to in other sources)

Here Benning admits he has to move money out to keep players like Markstrom

Benning: Suppose there's a chance of re-signing Markstrom, Tanev & Toffoli but dependent on moving money out


Finally you say no one criticized Benning for losing his best player and MVP. There was plenty of criticism. There is some below. Criticism would have much heavier if Holtby hadn't been quickly signed which muted criticism and is, as I have said from the start, something for which Canuck management should be congratulated.

Former Canucks goaltender Eddie Lack calls out GM for handling of Markstrom negotiations | TradeRumours.com

Canucks: Why Jim Benning’s job is in jeopardy now

Canucks fans aren't pleased after Markstrom, Toffoli and Stecher all sign elsewhere - Article - BARDOWN

Not sure there is anything left to say. I can agree with you that I should have considered the NMC in the Markstrom negotiations more than I did in the initial post. But I really don't understand why you got so nasty and bent out of shape b/c I didn't.

Unbelievable goalpost moving by you..Incredible...Clearly they chose Demko (as in they walked away from Markstrom and his demand for an NTC), ..

"He was a UFA...if he didnt get his desired No Movement Clause, he was moving on..end of story...We offered him $5.5M , and a year less than the Flames....He wanted ED protection (he stated that security was imperative to him in his 1040 interview), we couldn't give it to him..He didnt leave the Canucks because of the money (cap)...Clearly, they (Ian Clark and management) chose Demko. the younger keeper.."..POM.(post #38)....Clearly, in my post here,Its obvious that I am stating Clark and management chose Marky after the fact they walked away,....If it was before, I would have preceded my post with that claim....right?

.Everybody knew they were negotiating right up to the last minute, thats correct..Of course he consulted with his goaltending expert Ian Clark (look at all the new diversions your creating)

Now you're manufacturing I said Clark made some' 11th hour intervention?..Good grief...lol

I said that I believe Marky would have signed here for $5.5 x 5 years with an NMC, a year less that what the Flames gave him...The NMC being the main sticking point (as Marky himself claimed after signing with the Flames)... 'Cash'..(the cap) wasn't the issue.

Just the same as you gave Benning a fail on the JT Miller deal...Your take on the Markstrom scenario is equally 'crackpot'..Benning can be given deserved criticism for overpaying free agents, and creating a cap problem, also the loss of Toffoli and Stecher...but walking away from the Markstrom deal wasn't one of them.

I enjoy your post game reports, please keep doing them..However,on the GM's moves, your 'lynch mob' leanings really cloud your objectivity.

I'll leave it at that.

 

[VanJack]

Still hard to fathom how the Canucks snared Schmidt for the price of a 2022 third round draft pick. This is an outright pilfering by Benning, based on the early returns from training camp.

 

[Fatass]

Still hard to fathom how the Canucks snared Schmidt for the price of a 2022 third round draft pick. This is an outright pilfering by Benning, based on the early returns from training camp.

Agreed. Benning isn’t all bad. One step forward (stealing Schmidt to replace Tanev) and two steps back (losing Marky and Tofu)

 

[Raistlin]

Schmidt was a lucky (albeit career saving) stroke, schmidt landed on his lap. but it shouldn't cover the dithering job he did on Stecher and Tanev, the prioritizing OEL with blinders on while not talking with his own UFAs at all. Once again, Jim is that guy that gets by at work, you look at the results and it's not bad, but if you evaluate his execution, you'll realize that this is a fail of an off season. The horseshoes are with him though, better lucky than good???

 

[4Twenty]

BTW the same metrics suggest Holtby was much better than his save % suggests last year.

Weird that @Norade liked this post.

jfresh’s Holtby card is blood red. He was in the 6th percentile of medium danger shots as per that source.

He can certainly bounce back but I’m guessing there actually isn’t any goaltending metrics that Holtby performed well in last season.

 

[Tables of Stats]

Weird that @Norade liked this post.

jfresh’s Holtby card is blood red. He was in the 6th percentile of medium danger shots as per that source.

He can certainly bounce back but I’m guessing there actually isn’t any goaltending metrics that Holtby performed well in last season.

Basically, I think Holtby was the second-best goalie option we could have signed to tandem with Demko, the first best being Greiss, and that signing Markstrom to a 5 or 6 year deal with MNC for north of 5 million was a massive mistake. I don't think you should ever give a goalie more than 3 years term and that you should keep the cost of your tandem around 5% of the team's total cap hit. You can make an average goalie look great with systems play so you almost never need to pay for a high-end tender.

I like the work JFresh does, but I have my own takes on things.

 

[Blue and Green]

Weird that @Norade liked this post.

jfresh’s Holtby card is blood red. He was in the 6th percentile of medium danger shots as per that source.

He can certainly bounce back but I’m guessing there actually isn’t any goaltending metrics that Holtby performed well in last season.

Holtby's expected save % last season was .879 according to Clear Sight Analytics. By their measurements his .897 really wasn't as bad as it looks in a vacuum.

 

[4Twenty]

Holtby's expected save % last season was .879 according to Clear Sight Analytics. By their measurements his .897 really wasn't as bad as it looks in a vacuum.

I’ll take your word for it. Markstrom was top wasn’t he?

Hockey reference ranks him very poorly.

As does Nhltools

 

[Blue and Green]

I’ll take your word for it. Markstrom was top wasn’t he?

Hockey reference ranks him very poorly.

As does Nhltools

Hellebuyck and Markstrom were the top two on Clear Sight's analytics. I don't place much faith in Hockey Reference's stuff and I don't know anything about NHL Tools.

EDIT: They were the top two on goalie +/-. On save % contribution it was actually Markstrom and Rask.