"Grabbing hold of something" (Nyquist/Babcock)

[Sentinel]

HF tendency to vastly overrate offensive talent.

Offensive talent cannot be overrated.

DO something. Don't just skate around hoping for someone to get you the puck. Don't just skate the puck into the corner and turn it over.

You just described Cleary and Abdelkator, not Tatar and Nyquist.

 

[BinCookin]

Andersson was brought up when Bertuzzi went down. It was pretty much a logic: "big body for a big body".

We are an undersized team, so missing any big body will hurt us more than some Bruins, Kings or Blues teams. 50% of our biggest forwards are out (Bertuzzi and Sammy of Mule/Miller/Bert/Sammy). That's why they want to keep Andersson there and not build an all-midget offense.

We should really add more size depth at next summer, trying to sign like both Penner(6'4) and Horton(6'2) and keep Andersson(6'2), Mule(6'3), Sammy (6'2) and bring Sheahan(6'2) up next year or after if Bert is done/gone to replace him. Then there would be adecent group of forwards with big size. If one is missing, it won't be immediately a killer. Then surround those big bodies with smallish skill (Nyquist, Tatar, Zeta, Brunner, Dats, Järnkrok) we kind of endlessly have, and we have a better balanced package again.

This is a BIG BIG point for me.

I think people focusing on size are WRONG. I think this is like MONEY BALL. Size is not nearly as important as it once was.

Will being smaller stop our players from getting to the net for garbage goals? - Yes
Zetterberg and Datsyuk are small players than can excel against "BIG" teams. Do they only excel because there is a Franzen/Bertuzzi in front of the net??? - I don't think so.

Montreal last year was criticized for being "small" and "pathetic"
They add a few more players, and all of a sudden, they are near the best in the EAST.
They did not do this on size. They are just starting to be more skilled than their opponents.

I do not care if Tatar/Nyquist remain 3rd line players... they are BETTER 3rd liners than miller/eaves.
2002 3rd liners dandenault/hull/datsyuk were all small.

I want our team to utilize our small skilled players. It is where we excel. We will not beat Boston trying to play like Boston. We beat them by being BETTER than their players.

If you want a LARGE and Skilled team... we need to adopt completely new drafting style... and that style requires higher picks. So if we tank for 5-7 years, then we can rebuild that way. I say take advantage of what we have. Small skilled guys, play them all.

If we don't win that way so be it. BUT, it is our BEST CHANCE to win.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Did Tatar "Grab a Hold of Something?"
http://www.redwingsnow.com/prospects/put-puck-net


Player Minutes Shots M/S
Zetterberg 566 99 5.717172
Brunner 505 87 5.804598
Nyquist 64 11 5.818182
Tatar 204 32 6.375
Franzen 418 62 6.741935
Emmerton 282 38 7.421053
Tootoo 271 36 7.527778
Abdelkader 421 55 7.654545
Cleary 455 59 7.711864
Datsyuk 537 68 7.897059
Miller 303 37 8.189189
Filppula 401 44 9.113636
Andersson 202 20 10.1
Bertuzzi 108 10 10.8

 

[Sentinel]

HF tendency to vastly overrate offensive talent.

Offensive talent cannot be overestimated.

DO something. Don't just skate around hoping for someone to get you the puck. Don't just skate the puck into the corner and turn it over.

You just described Cleary and Abdelkator, not Tatar and Nyquist.

 

[Hendricks433]

Midgets won't screen nowadays monster goalies as well as before. That's one thing. Also midget forwards does not wear the opposite defence down. That's the key for a real success, winning some playoff series, wear the opposite team down. They could be strong on the puck yes, but that is only one thing. You probably won't win many playoff series, if you don't have strong players there who will wear the opposite defence down when you are wrestling all the time against them during the games and series.

We need those big guys there, more than we have now, to surround those other great guys like Tatar.

Yes we need a combo of big bodies and skilled guys and preferably some that have both. Regardless Tatar should be up here playing on a line, he outplayed a lot of guys. You can demote Cleary, Eaves, Miller or Emmerton(He's impressed me though). Most of our big guys arent really big physical guys anyway. Franzen is soft as can be despite being big.

 

[Brick Top]

The choice is not between Anderson or Tatar. It's between Tatar and every other bottom six grinder who contributes nothing to the team. I'd keep both Anderson and Tatar and dump Clearly Abby.

Absolutely. Andersson was going to stay up b/c of the Helm injury and we need a bottom 6 C (apparently Abby has graduated from bottom 6 grinding C to top 6 scoring winger). KH and/or Babs chose to keep guys like Eaves, Cleary and Miller over Tatar- Tats is better than all of those guys, and has a puck possession game that none of those guys can bring to the ice.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Midgets won't screen nowadays monster goalies as well as before. That's one thing. Also midget forwards does not wear the opposite defence down. That's the key for a real success, winning some playoff series, wear the opposite team down.

Pavel Datysuk and Henrik Zetterberg WEAR DOWN defense more than any other players on the Red Wings.

What team have you been watching for the last 10 years Henka?

 

[Brick Top]

Midgets won't screen nowadays monster goalies as well as before. That's one thing. Also midget forwards does not wear the opposite defence down. That's the key for a real success, winning some playoff series, wear the opposite team down. They could be strong on the puck yes, but that is only one thing. You probably won't win many playoff series, if you don't have strong players there who will wear the opposite defence down when you are wrestling all the time against them during the games and series.

We need those big guys there, more than we have now, to surround those other great guys like Tatar.

Agree that we could use more size. But the none of the big guys we have- Bert, Mule, Andersson, Sammy (does he even count? maybe relative to the other Wings, I guess)- play a big man's game consistently. Andersson seems to be the most physical of the group. For the most part, they play like Hudler trapped in a large body. None of those guys are wearing anyone's D down in a game or series.

I want the Wings to sign Horton, but even he isn't a real force on the ice. See if Boston is willing to swap UFA's and send us Horton for Flip+, or hope to grab him on the UFA market if we're lucky. But size isn't the end-all, be-all if guys aren't using their size to be physical.

The Bergeron/Seguin/Marchand line has been one of the best lines in the league this year, and here's the tale of the tape:

Bergeron: 6'2" 194lbs (honestly, 6'2" seems like a basketball program height where they added an inch or so)
Seguin: 6'1" 183lbs
Marchand: 5'9" 183lbs

None of those guys tops 200lbs but they play a REALLY effective game at both ends of the ice- shutting down the opposing line and dominating puck possession. I think that players need to have a strong will to consistently go to the net hard and battle in the corners- those 3 all have it, but other than D and Z, I don't think any of our top 6 guys do consistently. Tatar plays a Marchand-type game, only less physical and no agitating the opposition. I'd like him to play on a line with a big guy, but don't think it's necessary for him to succeed.

 

[HIFE]

This is a BIG BIG point for me.

I think people focusing on size are WRONG. I think this is like MONEY BALL. Size is not nearly as important as it once was.

Will being smaller stop our players from getting to the net for garbage goals? - Yes
Zetterberg and Datsyuk are small players than can excel against "BIG" teams. Do they only excel because there is a Franzen/Bertuzzi in front of the net??? - I don't think so.

Montreal last year was criticized for being "small" and "pathetic"
They add a few more players, and all of a sudden, they are near the best in the EAST.
They did not do this on size. They are just starting to be more skilled than their opponents.

I do not care if Tatar/Nyquist remain 3rd line players... they are BETTER 3rd liners than miller/eaves.
2002 3rd liners dandenault/hull/datsyuk were all small.

I want our team to utilize our small skilled players. It is where we excel. We will not beat Boston trying to play like Boston. We beat them by being BETTER than their players.

If you want a LARGE and Skilled team... we need to adopt completely new drafting style... and that style requires higher picks. So if we tank for 5-7 years, then we can rebuild that way. I say take advantage of what we have. Small skilled guys, play them all.

If we don't win that way so be it. BUT, it is our BEST CHANCE to win.

I am so with you on this post. To add, Montreal puts Gallagher as their PP net presence, a small ferocious player, 5'9! Galchenyuk is also smaller but goodness what a hockey player.

Size helps certain players compete, say J. Ericsson or Subban. But does it really help a Franzen or Lucic?

Size is waay overrated by coaches, the media, fans. Great players are better because they are faster, quicker, smarter. Look at Hudlers game this season he is playing sharp. Nyquist could be awesome as our net presence, the guy is lightning quick and very skilled.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Midgets won't screen nowadays monster goalies as well as before. That's one thing. Also midget forwards does not wear the opposite defence down. That's the key for a real success, winning some playoff series, wear the opposite team down. They could be strong on the puck yes, but that is only one thing. You probably won't win many playoff series, if you don't have strong players there who will wear the opposite defence down when you are wrestling all the time against them during the games and series.

We need those big guys there, more than we have now, to surround those other great guys like Tatar.

Andersson was brought up when Bertuzzi went down. It was pretty much a logic: "big body for a big body".

We are an undersized team, so missing any big body will hurt us more than some Bruins, Kings or Blues teams. 50% of our biggest forwards are out (Bertuzzi and Sammy of Mule/Miller/Bert/Sammy). That's why they want to keep Andersson there and not build an all-midget offense.

We should really add more size depth at next summer, trying to sign like both Penner(6'4) and Horton(6'2) and keep Andersson(6'2), Mule(6'3), Sammy (6'2) and bring Sheahan(6'2) up next year or after if Bert is done/gone to replace him. Then there would be adecent group of forwards with big size. If one is missing, it won't be immediately a killer. Then surround those big bodies with smallish skill (Nyquist, Tatar, Zeta, Brunner, Dats, Järnkrok) we kind of endlessly have, and we have a better balanced package again.

Only ones Penner would wear down is us here at Wings GDT, yelling that lazy ****er to do something.


Size is nothing if you don't play big and/or don't use it.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

Only ones Penner would wear down is us here at Wings GDT, yelling that lazy ****er to do something.


Size is nothing if you don't play big and/or don't use it.

It takes a special kind of failed potential to injure yourself while eating a stack of chocolate chip pancakes.

 

[RedMenace]

If you want a LARGE and Skilled team... we need to adopt completely new drafting style... and that style requires higher picks. So if we tank for 5-7 years, then we can rebuild that way. I say take advantage of what we have. Small skilled guys, play them all.

That's it, right there. Big, skilled guys (who use their size) hitting UFA are incredibly rare.

If we don't win that way so be it. BUT, it is our BEST CHANCE to win.

Or maybe the coach needs to adapt his style to the player options he's given...

Only ones Penner would wear down is us here at Wings GDT, yelling that lazy ****er to do something.

Size is nothing if you don't play big and/or don't use it.

Agreed; there are enough Mules on the team already.

 

[BinCookin]

I am so with you on this post. To add, Montreal puts Gallagher as their PP net presence, a small ferocious player, 5'9! Galchenyuk is also smaller but goodness what a hockey player.

Size helps certain players compete, say J. Ericsson or Subban. But does it really help a Franzen or Lucic?

Size is waay overrated by coaches, the media, fans. Great players are better because they are faster, quicker, smarter. Look at Hudlers game this season he is playing sharp. Nyquist could be awesome as our net presence, the guy is lightning quick and very skilled.

remember dino ciccarelli? Small net front presence.

Tatar showed skill in close, near the net. He is small.

If we refuse to play guys like tatar, for guys like abdelkader/emmerton.

Then we deserve what we get.

 

[BinCookin]

That's it, right there. Big, skilled guys (who use their size) hitting UFA are incredibly rare.

Very astute to notice i did not suggest picking up these types of players in UFA. Because you never get the "good" ones. You will not get a Lucic by UFA. Really he is a SUPER physical second liner. He is not really "better" than filpulla, but that size difference, makes him a monster to play against.

We just don't have that team, and trying to play that way is like "half ass-ing it".

Or maybe the coach needs to adapt his style to the player options he's given...

This is key. I think Babcock needs to adjust his thinking on this one.

Kindl can be more successful than a lashoff ever can. You just need to train him and smith right.

Tatar and Nyquist will provide more offense than anyone else in the bottom 6. If they need to learn to play defensive... than so be it. Let them learn up here. They will not learn anymore in the AHL.

I like all of our bottom 6 guys. I do. Miller and Eaves I like. But if they have to go, to make room for Tatar and Nyquist than so be it.

Babs needs to see Nyq and Tatar are good. The longer he does not, the more this team will be "played wrong".

I do not think he is a bad coach. I think he is a good coach for anaheim and i think boudreau would be a good coach for us. Someone who doesn't think size is everything. Because it really isn't. Also notice our injuries involve all the "big" guys. That size doesn't seem to be protecting them.

 

[TatarTangle]

I'd be willing to bet there are more players under 6' that are considered elite compared to players over 6'

 

[DRWCountryClub]

The Red Wings, especially this year, need players that are competent in all zones of the ice. Andersson plays a 200ft game. Nyquist doesn't. Tatar.... eh... dunno. Brunner is really the only player the Wings have that has a permanent roster spot that is a pure offensive talent, and he's becoming more of a liability than an asset lately.

Do you realize all zones of the ice includes the neutral zone and offensive zone? This is just an ignorant saying to say to discredit someone who isn't big, physical, or play in in your face game in the defensive end.

Who is better in the neutral zone and offensive zones? Cleary or Nyquist? Tatar or Abdelkater?

Statements like '200 foot game' seem to only include 75 feet.

 

[DRWCountryClub]

I'd be willing to bet there are more players under 6' that are considered elite compared to players over 6'

Top 5 scorers are 6'0 or under.

Although Getzlaf and Staal are 6 and 7.

This big body thing is some strange myth people around here have bought into lately for some reason.

 

[Flowah]

Top 5 scorers are 6'0 or under.

Although Getzlaf and Staal are 6 and 7.

This big body thing is some strange myth people around here have bought into lately for some reason.

It's not so much a myth as it is misunderstood. Size is always nice to have. Imagine our team if everyone grew 5 inches and added 30 pounds.

The thing is, they'd have size AND skill. Size without skill is largely pointless. And size without knowing how to use size is completely pointless. And then there are guys that don't have physical size but somehow manage to be the strongest guys on the ice.

Size is nice, but at the end of the day even if players don't have it, it can be overcome with strength and skill. Crosby, Stamkos, Datsyuk, are not elite players because they are huge but because they are hockey geniuses.

If you don't have the luxury of picking huge, fast, skilled guys at every position, then whatever. It's so obvious that many players play bigger than their frames. If Datsyuk can knock Weber on his ass, then so can Tatar, if he learns how.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

My prediction: Unless Babcock is fired/resigns, he's always going to misuse Tatar, and perhaps Nyquist too.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Top 5 scorers are 6'0 or under.

Although Getzlaf and Staal are 6 and 7.

This big body thing is some strange myth people around here have bought into lately for some reason.

Because they're defending the coach/gm

It's important to get size and toughness in the lineup.

But Joakim Andersson has 7 hits -- less than any other forward who has played a reasonable number of games
Time to get real

 

[BinCookin]

My prediction: Unless Babcock is fired/resigns, he's always going to misuse Tatar, and perhaps Nyquist too.

If that is true, i would be ok with his replacement, even though i think he is a good coach in general.

but if he misuses the team he has been given.. what is the point.

 

[Brick Top]

Because they're defending the coach/gm

It's important to get size and toughness in the lineup.

But Joakim Andersson has 7 hits -- less than any other forward who has played a reasonable number of games
Time to get real

Are you serious? Only 7 hits?

Well, I now rescind my earlier comment that Andersson was the most physical out of Bert, Mule, Andy and Sammy... none of our big guys are physical players.

My bad.

 

[Vladdy84]

Because they're defending the coach/gm

It's important to get size and toughness in the lineup.

But Joakim Andersson has 7 hits -- less than any other forward who has played a reasonable number of games
Time to get real

Joakim just kinda skates around, tries not to screw up much, be responsible in the d-zone and make a play every now and then. He's an OK 4th line player that doesn't impose his will or body on opponents. I've been far more impressed with Emmerton this season. The 4th line has been immensely better than the 3rd since Son of Canada, Daniel Cleary was sent back to the bottom 6.

 

[Adityase]

I think people are being a little hard on management and coaching. We've lost so much of what made this team great in the last 3 years and we're definitively in a transition. This season is crazy with it's shortened/condensed schedule. I'm not saying we're tanking, but if we have to miss the playoffs in order to better understand out personnel I'm okay with it.

We're not all going to agree but, I think the following are true:

Nyquist is a great talent and future top 6er... whom I'd rather play out the rest of the year in GR than on the Wings. He gets pushed around too easily. He's skating with his head down. He's trying to do too much alone on every shift. He needs to get stronger on his skates and have a full off-season/preseason with the team.

Tatar is more NHL ready and I'd like to see him up... but not if he's a healthy scratch. I understand Babs wants to work in the guys who come back from injury and let's not forget... WE HAVE TOO MANY PLAYERS to let everyone play. If we make the playoffs, I'm torn between letting a rookie with skills play or a veteran who may be over the hill but has been through the wars before play. Coaches generally take the veteran. I tend to agree. They're more likely to step it up than fade away.

Andersson has looked fantastic to me. I agree on the 200 ft game. He's not only a big-body which is important, he's also responsible. His skating and speed are better than his stints last year too. Frankly, it's also the reason I don't mind Emmerton out there. At very least he's not a defensive liability. And both are decent passers. Andersson has more vision. I can see him elevating into a Homer or even possibly Franzen one day. Great hockey sense. Of the three, he's the one I'd keep up. Though personally, I'd put that Miller-Andersson-Tatar line back together as the 4th line for the playoffs. A poor man's 2 kids and a goat.

When all is said and done, the main issue is still injuries. If the team is healthy and the third line is Abdelkader-Helm-Tootoo/Cleary, and the top 6 are Dats, Z, Brunner, Franzen, Flip and Sammy... I'm okay with that. Eaves and Emmerton are available too. If we get through the season in a playoff position then the roster expands and we'll see what Babs does. He'll probably lean on veterans again... but I can't blame him.

I think people here are oversimplifying everything.

 

[RedMenace]

If that is true, i would be ok with his replacement, even though i think he is a good coach in general.

but if he misuses the team he has been given.. what is the point.

Exactly. He may be a very good coach (and he is), but if he can't/won't utilize the personnel he's given, then someone else needs to be found who can/will.

It's much easier to replace one part -- no matter how large or important it is -- than many different ones.