"Grabbing hold of something" (Nyquist/Babcock)

[Peter Tosh]

From http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/03/red_wings_recall_gustav_nyquis_2.html

“We sent him to Peoria to play the game last night, gave him a six-hour bus ride,'' coach Mike Babcock said. “Let him sleep for a bit and we’ll let him play tonight, see how mentally tough he is. That’s all part of the training to be a Red Wing.â€

“He’s got some skill, he’s obviously a real good player,'' Babcock said. “He’s led everywhere he’s ever played in scoring. The problem with the NHL is you have to come up and grab hold of something.

“We called Andy up for a game. He’s still playing, just because he grabbed hold of something. That’s what Gus has to do.''

The breakaway goal, and the 2nd star of the game honors vs Minnesota, was this Nyquist "grabbing hold of something"? Has he finally earned Babcock's trust or will he get sent back down again?

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[ricky0034]

the only thing Nyquist can "grab a hold of" to get Babcock to play him and want him around is some sort of blackmail material

 

[jerrymac]

I fell asleep after the first period but from the replay Nyquist had a nice goal and from reading what people are saying on the board he had a pretty good game. Through all of the fire Babcock/he's the worst coach talk I've tried to tell myself that he has a reason for what he's doing but I'm slowly starting to wonder what he's doing. After the comments yesterday about Gus needing to hold on to his spot like Andersson did (which is questionable but for another thread) I hoped that if Gus played well they'd keep him up. Now I don't think he's been sent back down yet and won't be until Eaves or Samuelsson return but his post-game comments made it sound like it doesn't matter how he played.

Well I think we lost 4-1 so that puts everyone in the same position. I mean Gus showed good speed coming through the neutral zone there.

 

[Winger98]

I can get those comments concerning Nyquist - he's been passive and shaky in the majority of his games with the Wings this year. But what did Tatar do to be sent back to GR? If Andersson "grabbed something," Tatar did, too. And both have either outplayed or been equal to a handful of other bottom6 players on the club.

 

[SoupGuru]

The Red Wings, especially this year, need players that are competent in all zones of the ice. Andersson plays a 200ft game. Nyquist doesn't. Tatar.... eh... dunno. Brunner is really the only player the Wings have that has a permanent roster spot that is a pure offensive talent, and he's becoming more of a liability than an asset lately.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

The Red Wings, especially this year, need players that are competent in all zones of the ice. Andersson plays a 200ft game. Nyquist doesn't. Tatar.... eh... dunno. Brunner is really the only player the Wings have that has a permanent roster spot that is a pure offensive talent, and he's becoming more of a liability than an asset lately.

Nyquist and Tatar are both competent defensively and no worse than Abby or Cleary. These excuses for management are embarrassing and have no base at all.

 

[Winger98]

The Red Wings, especially this year, need players that are competent in all zones of the ice. Andersson plays a 200ft game. Nyquist doesn't. Tatar.... eh... dunno. Brunner is really the only player the Wings have that has a permanent roster spot that is a pure offensive talent, and he's becoming more of a liability than an asset lately.

I think you're selling Tatar and Nyquist a bit short. They aren't going to be selke candidates, but they aren't one dimensional scorers, either. More importantly, they help us keep the play in the other team's zone.

More to the point, though, is that Tatar has done at least as much as Andersson. So what's Babcock's idea of someone grabbing their spot? It looks more like it's "you have to grab your spot...unless you're 6'3.""

 

[SoupGuru]

I think you're selling Tatar and Nyquist a bit short. They aren't going to be selke candidates, but they aren't one dimensional scorers, either. More importantly, they help us keep the play in the other team's zone.

More to the point, though, is that Tatar has done at least as much as Andersson. So what's Babcock's idea of someone grabbing their spot? It looks more like it's "you have to grab your spot...unless you're 6'3.""

I don't see that at all, sorry. We thought we were scraping the bottom of the barrel when we called up Andersson and now he's 4th on the team in plus/minus and kills penalties.

I'm pretty sure both Tatar and Nyquist get a bump in people's assessments due to the classic HF tendency to vastly overrate offensive talent.

Again, I'm not saying Tatar or Nyquist are bad players or won't develop into top tier NHLers. It just seems like Babcock is looking for some assertiveness. DO something. Don't just skate around hoping for someone to get you the puck. Don't just skate the puck into the corner and turn it over. Don't try sweet outlet passes while under pressure. Hit something. Lay down to block a shot. DO something.

Now granted, a lot of the time the rest of the team isn't a great role model for that either, so...

 

[RedMenace]

I think you're selling Tatar and Nyquist a bit short. They aren't going to be selke candidates, but they aren't one dimensional scorers, either. More importantly, they help us keep the play in the other team's zone.

More to the point, though, is that Tatar has done at least as much as Andersson. So what's Babcock's idea of someone grabbing their spot? It looks more like it's "you have to grab your spot...unless you're 6'3.""

I agree with all of that, and I think this quote from the article is the most telling:

“His hockey-sense,'' Babcock said. “He competes hard, he understands the game and he’s a big body. Knows how to play..."

That seems to be his go-to solution for everything: Big body. Lashoff?

"Outstanding," said coach Mike Babcock. "He's just smart, he's big. He's big and he's smart, so because you're big and you're smart and you're competitive, you get to play lots."

and

"He's smart. And he's 6-foot-3 every shift."

As silly as it sounds, I think CB nailed it when he called Babcock a "size queen."

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

I don't see that at all, sorry. We thought we were scraping the bottom of the barrel when we called up Andersson and now he's 4th on the team in plus/minus and kills penalties.

I'm pretty sure both Tatar and Nyquist get a bump in people's assessments due to the classic HF tendency to vastly overrate offensive talent.

Again, I'm not saying Tatar or Nyquist are bad players or won't develop into top tier NHLers. It just seems like Babcock is looking for some assertiveness. DO something. Don't just skate around hoping for someone to get you the puck. Don't just skate the puck into the corner and turn it over. Don't try sweet outlet passes while under pressure. Hit something. Lay down to block a shot. DO something.

Now granted, a lot of the time the rest of the team isn't a great role model for that either, so...

I understand maybe that argument for Nyquist, but Tatar was doing everything and more when he was in Detroit. He always wanted the puck, played tough in the dirty areas and was the catalyst for the third line. Did you watch him at all? Because he's basically the exact opposite of what you described.

 

[Winger98]

I don't see that at all, sorry. We thought we were scraping the bottom of the barrel when we called up Andersson and now he's 4th on the team in plus/minus and kills penalties.

I'm pretty sure both Tatar and Nyquist get a bump in people's assessments due to the classic HF tendency to vastly overrate offensive talent.

Again, I'm not saying Tatar or Nyquist are bad players or won't develop into top tier NHLers. It just seems like Babcock is looking for some assertiveness. DO something. Don't just skate around hoping for someone to get you the puck. Don't just skate the puck into the corner and turn it over. Don't try sweet outlet passes while under pressure. Hit something. Lay down to block a shot. DO something.

Now granted, a lot of the time the rest of the team isn't a great role model for that either, so...

Fair enough. For what it's worth, I'm not advocating sending Andersson down, either. I think he's earned a spot, too. I just don't see how Tatar has done any less. The guys I'd be moving first are Miller and Eaves. Not bad players, but not special, either.

 

[JPE123]

We have several guys, who have shown over the past 2-3 seasons, that have limited upside. Emmerton, Miller, Eaves, Cleary come to mind. Why not find out what the youngsters can bring? None of the guys mentioned are bad hockey players but they just aren't guys that will bring playoff success to the team. Time to move on. And someone please light a fire under Franzen.

 

[BinCookin]

I think you're selling Tatar and Nyquist a bit short. They aren't going to be selke candidates, but they aren't one dimensional scorers, either. More importantly, they help us keep the play in the other team's zone.

More to the point, though, is that Tatar has done at least as much as Andersson. So what's Babcock's idea of someone grabbing their spot? It looks more like it's "you have to grab your spot...unless you're 6'3.""

What do all the rookies who have "grabbed" their spot have in common?

Smith 6'2'' ("Big")
Anderson 6'3'' ("Big")
Lashoff 6'3'' ("Big")

Babcock clearly wants a BIGGER team.

He wants the old Mighty Ducks.

Is it just me... but our team is the opposite of that style.
Smaller skilled players who should be SCORING on "slow bruiser players"

By leaving our small skilled players down, and using our less than stellar "BIG" players.

We end up not having enough skill and NOT having enough skill with size to compete.

To me he is doing the exact OPPOSITE of what I would be doing.

Lashoff 3 year deal? really?

Tatar and Nyquist in. (Old people out or demoted)

If Nyquist doesn't earn his spot in 5 games fine send him down
But Tatar certainly did. So Babs, I would honestly just prefer you tell the media what you are really thinking: "I don't like these small forwards, UNLESS they score like datsyuk and Zetterberg" - which they won't on their rookie years because not even datsyuk and zetterberg (rookie versions) score like the current D and Z.

 

[PullHard]

I don't see that at all, sorry. We thought we were scraping the bottom of the barrel when we called up Andersson and now he's 4th on the team in plus/minus and kills penalties.

I'm pretty sure both Tatar and Nyquist get a bump in people's assessments due to the classic HF tendency to vastly overrate offensive talent.

Again, I'm not saying Tatar or Nyquist are bad players or won't develop into top tier NHLers. It just seems like Babcock is looking for some assertiveness. DO something. Don't just skate around hoping for someone to get you the puck. Don't just skate the puck into the corner and turn it over. Don't try sweet outlet passes while under pressure. Hit something. Lay down to block a shot. DO something.

Now granted, a lot of the time the rest of the team isn't a great role model for that either, so...

You may as well have just said "I never once watched Tatar play this season." His hunger for the puck put basically everyone aside from Datsyuk to shame. He was often one of the only guys consistently battling for, and coming out with, pucks from along the boards. Your eagerness to defend Babcock and put the rest of us critical thinking posters to bed has gone past humor and into delirium.

 

[Mister Ed]

You may as well have just said "I never once watched Tatar play this season." His hunger for the puck put basically everyone aside from Datsyuk to shame. He was often one of the only guys consistently battling for, and coming out with, pucks from along the boards. Your eagerness to defend Babcock and put the rest of us critical thinking posters to bed has gone past humor and into delirium.

I agree, Tatar was basically Helm, a little bit slower, but with better hands. He was like a dog on raw meat going in the corners and around the goalmouth.

 

[Lugaid]

I can agree that Babcock seems very focused on the size of some players, but I don't think it's a bad thing necessairly. We're traditionally a small-sized team, we don't have a lot of people above the 6ft mark, it's good to get a mix in and that it's actually physically more difficult to counter a play against us. I thought Tatar showed great promise, but I can definitely see the logic in letting Andersson stay up on the cost of Tatar. Sure, we need scoring, but I think that Babcock feels that the potential is there with the team, just that it's a matter of working harder and playing better. Is he playing the right team for that? That's the everlasting debate, but he obviously feels his decisions are the best ones.

 

[Henkka]

What do all the rookies who have "grabbed" their spot have in common?

Andersson 6'3'' ("Big")

Babcock clearly wants a BIGGER team.

Andersson was brought up when Bertuzzi went down. It was pretty much a logic: "big body for a big body".

We are an undersized team, so missing any big body will hurt us more than some Bruins, Kings or Blues teams. 50% of our biggest forwards are out (Bertuzzi and Sammy of Mule/Miller/Bert/Sammy). That's why they want to keep Andersson there and not build an all-midget offense.

We should really add more size depth at next summer, trying to sign like both Penner(6'4) and Horton(6'2) and keep Andersson(6'2), Mule(6'3), Sammy (6'2) and bring Sheahan(6'2) up next year or after if Bert is done/gone to replace him. Then there would be adecent group of forwards with big size. If one is missing, it won't be immediately a killer. Then surround those big bodies with smallish skill (Nyquist, Tatar, Zeta, Brunner, Dats, Järnkrok) we kind of endlessly have, and we have a better balanced package again.

 

[Mister Ed]

Andersson was brought up when Bertuzzi went down. It was pretty much a logic: "big body for a big body".

Exactly. Replacing Andersson with Tatar would be counter-productive if we abide that Babcock essentially replaced Bertuzzi for Andersson.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

The Red Wings, especially this year, need players that are competent in all zones of the ice. Andersson plays a 200ft game. Nyquist doesn't. Tatar.... eh... dunno. Brunner is really the only player the Wings have that has a permanent roster spot that is a pure offensive talent, and he's becoming more of a liability than an asset lately.

I totally disagree with this.
For one, Andersson isn't some defensive stud, as his skating isn't ideal for center, making it difficult to play a 200 foot game

I'd also question how much Franzen and Cleary are 200 foot players.

And I think Tatar has gone a long way to improving his all around game

 

[Flowah]

The choice is not between Anderson or Tatar. It's between Tatar and every other bottom six grinder who contributes nothing to the team. I'd keep both Anderson and Tatar and dump Clearly Abby.

 

[Vladdy84]

Andersson was brought up when Bertuzzi went down. It was pretty much a logic: "big body for a big body".

We are an undersized team, so missing any big body will hurt us more than some Bruins, Kings or Blues teams. 50% of our biggest forwards are out (Bertuzzi and Sammy of Mule/Miller/Bert/Sammy).

We should really add more size depth at next summer, trying to sign like both Penner(6'4) and Horton(6'2) and keep Andersson(6'2), Mule(6'3), Sammy (6'2) and bring Sheahan(6'2) up next year or after if Bert is done/gone to replace him. Then there would be adecent group of forwards with big size. If one is missing, it won't be immediately a killer. Then surround those big bodies with smallish skill (Nyquist, Tatar, Zeta, Brunner, Dats, Järnkrok) we kind of endlessly have, and we have a good package.

We should focus on players that can score goals, skate fast, hit, play both ways well and are super smart.

 

[Henkka]

We should focus on players that can score goals, skate fast, hit, play both ways well and are super smart.

Those kind of talent are all signed to 8-year extensions with their current teams...

We have those goal scorers (Tatar) and fast skaters (Nyquist), who are defensively well (Ferraro) and super smart (Järnkrok) in our prospect core. But those big strong forwards have to be brought from outside.

 

[Flowah]

Those kind of talent are all signed to 8-year extensions with their current teams...

We have those goal scorers (Tatar) and fast skaters (Nyquist), who are defensively well (Ferraro) and super smart (Järnkrok) in our prospect core. But those big strong forwards have to be brought from outside.

You can be big and strong without being Franzen sized. Why don't people get this yet? Tatar was plenty strong on the puck.

 

[Probie]

the only thing Nyquist can "grab a hold of" to get Babcock to play him and want him around is some sort of blackmail material

Like the type of material clearly has on babs. It must be bad stuff.

 

[Henkka]

You can be big and strong without being Franzen sized. Why don't people get this yet? Tatar was plenty strong on the puck.

Midgets won't screen nowadays monster goalies as well as before. That's one thing. Also midget forwards does not wear the opposite defence down. That's the key for a real success, winning some playoff series, wear the opposite team down. They could be strong on the puck yes, but that is only one thing. You probably won't win many playoff series, if you don't have strong players there who will wear the opposite defence down when you are wrestling all the time against them during the games and series.

We need those big guys there, more than we have now, to surround those other great guys like Tatar.