Post-Game Talk: [GM26] Canucks lose to Devils | 5-6 (Miller, Joshua, Boeser, Lafferty, & Hoglander) | Snatching Defeat from the Jaws of Adequacy

[Lawzy]

IMO, some players are high IQ players like Tanev that you can pair with just about anybody and it would work. Myers is far from that. It doesn't come naturally to him and he needs constant coaching and familiarity

Sure but that hardly explains why Juulsen, Cole, and Hronek have been downright awful lately as well. I fully expect Myers to make the wrong play having watched him for these past 5 years and Juulsen is understandable since he's borderline an NHL player but Cole and Hronek? I'm not suggesting these guys are defensive savants but they've been uncharacteristically poor lately.

 

[Nick Lang]

The focus on Myers here is a bit crazy? Awful play by Hronek on the 6-5 goal. Zadorov with an awful giveaway earlier and then should give gotten a penalty on the Hughes breakaway.

Yeah I'm guilty of it too as Hronek, Zadorov, and Cole were also horrible and arguably worse. It's just this is going on 5 years with Myers and into the 100's of horrible games and plays.

Everyone will have bad games, so you can excuse that but with Myers it's just way to many to be anything buy pissed off. I don't know if I'm more excited we may get a playoff round this year or never have to watch Myers play again after this season.

 

[cc]

Sure but that hardly explains why Juulsen, Cole, and Hronek have been downright awful lately as well. I fully expect Myers to make the wrong play having watched him for these past 5 years and Juulsen is understandable since he's borderline an NHL player but Cole and Hronek? I'm not suggesting these guys are defensive savants but they've been uncharacteristically poor lately.

I think, when Soucy went down, everything went to hell defensively. Hronek and Hughes were forced to play too much causing a mental and physical fatigue (more for Hronek than Hughes). Tocchet has no confidence in Friedman and other call ups so has overused Myers and paired Cole with Juulsen. After one practice, I doubt Zad is up to speed. This stretch of home games will be a true test for them with more practice time. I think they do have a system but are finding it hard to execute on a daily basis. At times, Demko is able to mask this but not against some teams. Especially against the Devils

 

[vanarchy]

Incredibly frustrating game even with the comeback. The Devils had unfettered access to the front of the net all game long.

 

[theguardianII]

Geez I get tired of the added scrutiny Myers receives.

Ya the Jack Hughes intercept was not good as it resulted in a goal, Myers gets hung out to dry. But why did the backchecking center turn away from his check and leave the Devil player wide open?

Systems! Out number in your own zone. 1, 2, 3, not a particular position, who is closest.

Look at that play in more depth than JHughes' getting the puck.
Systems say #1 Myers and #2 Zadorov, the first two closest to the puck go to the corner. Zadorov even looks up ice before edging towards Hughes/Myers. He see's the backchecking forward to take the late Devil BUT that back checking Canuck peels off leaving the Devil all alone.

I don't know why, maybe it's the employer or some NHL policy but players like Quinn Hughes can do no wrong in play by play. When QH makes a horrible pass it's the receiving player that muffs the pass, if an opposing player mishandles the puck and QH picks it up, it's Hughes strips the puck, Hughes gets pushed out of the way on a goal and it's Kuz let his man go even if QH is between Kuz and the scorer.

Not just not being biased those calls but making Myers the scape goat that has fans commenting on him even when there are other players being scored on more often.
The Myers/Zadorov combo were 0 in plus minus, on for ONE goal against ONE!
Here is the bias now, Hronek - 4 against, Cole - 2 against, Hughes - 2 against, Miller - 3 in the first period.

Myers was on the ice for one goal against! Six were scored!

Last night Demko was seeing the pucks as BB's instead of beach balls the first period, even with some slip up there were goals scored that he might have stopped normally, one maybe.

But the Canucks just didn't seem to be in harmony.

Shorty used to be "call it as it is without the bias"

 

[Nick Lang]

I love 98% of what Tocchet has done here but the other 2% is how he’s pushed all the wrong buttons with Kuzmenko and turned him from an elite sniper who outscored his defensive issues to a caught-in-the-middle confidence-lacking shell of himself who looks terrified of making a mistake and then makes them anyway.

Maybe it's just simply that Kuz isn't a 40 goal sniper unless he's playing pond hockey where winning and losing doesn't matter. Fairly easy to see how his play style fit right in with our season last year. It could be impossible to marry that player with a defensively responsible player who plays a team game.

Whatever it is, his play and contract are not looking very good. Maybe he gets traded if this keeps going this way. Hypothetically what do you think he'd be worth at this point?

 

[MS]

Maybe it's just simply that Kuz isn't a 40 goal sniper unless he's playing pond hockey where winning and losing doesn't matter. Fairly easy to see how his play style fit right in with our season last year. It could be impossible to marry that player with a defensively responsible player who plays a team game.

Whatever it is, his play and contract are not looking very good. Maybe he gets traded if this keeps going this way. Hypothetically what do you thin he'd be worth at this point?

I don't really think that's the case, though. He was a much more effective 5-on-5 player than Boeser but Tocchet has managed to push the right buttons with one guy and all the wrong ones with the other.

He also hasn't been helped by the fact that Pettersson has been so crap at ES.

 

[sting101]

You cant win spotting teams 3 goal leads early in a game and then chasing. A good counterattack team will make you pay for that. The fact we were able to mount that comeback to tie it up was a testament to the players that did show up last night. Joshua Miller Lafferty Hoglander Boeser led that surge and were excellent.

The other way you are gonna consistently lose is if your top paid players don't play well. Pettersson Myers Kuzmenko Demko Garland Mikhayev Hronek Zadorov Cole Blueger im sorry that wasn't good enough and it's far too many. In the case of Kuzmenko and Myers atrocious and detrimental to being able to sustain anything worthwhile and how poor is Garland becoming for 5 million.

Games like last night from Myers are almost impossible to be able to overcome especially when Juulsen is the other option and Hronek is being tasked with up ice push to try and spike some scoring giving NJ high danger chances. Demko wasn't in the mode to be able to save that inevitability. As some have said here addition by subtraction performance. You get 5-6 games where he looks decent and then when he's off like last night and too many others....it's so wildly detrimental. It's a huge concern (as other than Demko stinking) it's so directly related to pucks in the back of the net.

I see people lighting up Tocchet and sure there are criticisms that can be made but 1 - He doesn't run the defense Foote does (and even Gonchar was behind the bench last night) 2 - He wasn't able to call a timeout after an icing and 3 - Making him responsible for Kuzmenko's unwillingness to get stuck in on the forecheck and shoot the damn puck is not fair. I do agree that the benching beyond 1 game was unnecessary. Would be nice if 40 could get him going but that's another issue right now. I'm a little more concerned about the willingness to want size vs speed in the lineup and forcing Pettersson Kuzmenko to play in straight lines dump and chase vs the creativity they had going last year.

 

[theguardianII]

Fair enough. I am less and less convinced there is a Tocchet 'system' with every passing game as we begin to see the same braindead defensive lapses and atrocious penalty killing. Could simply be a personel problem.

Well they found two good PK players now in Myers and Zadorov albeit there were only 2 PK situations this game but they were not scored on

 

[I am toxic]

Tocchet appears to be overdoing it with "details".

He has a good system, but has lost sight of the forest for the trees, giving the players too much feedback on details. Many of them are suffering paralysis from analysis in those split second decisons on the ice.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the player's with simpler roles are the ones underperforming the least.

Which means more videotape may not be a productive way to go.

At least that's how I see it. Tell me why I'm wrong.

 

[theguardianII]

Maybe it's just simply that Kuz isn't a 40 goal sniper unless he's playing pond hockey where winning and losing doesn't matter. Fairly easy to see how his play style fit right in with our season last year. It could be impossible to marry that player with a defensively responsible player who plays a team game.

Kuz was playing with Miller so both were on the ice for 3 against in the first period.
The center comes deeper back to help the defence.
Why was the Devil open for Jack's pass? Backchecker peeled off leaving him wide open.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Sure but that hardly explains why Juulsen, Cole, and Hronek have been downright awful lately as well. I fully expect Myers to make the wrong play having watched him for these past 5 years and Juulsen is understandable since he's borderline an NHL player but Cole and Hronek? I'm not suggesting these guys are defensive savants but they've been uncharacteristically poor lately.

I think it's a matter of teams adjusting and scouting to the 'new' Canucks. I think Tocchet has been trying to counter-adjust and/or wake up some of his players (ie, the Kuzmenko scratches)

Part of the problem is that the toolbox isn't as robust as it should be, so Tocchet trying to get creative (eg, PDG earlier in the season) only goes so far.

The other problem is that some of the actual nice tools (EP) are underperforming at the moment so it's easier for teams to focus on shutting down the working parts.

I'm not sure how to solve the backend problem because it seems like we have 80 bottom pairing dudes and H&H. I'd advocate splitting them up and like maybe having Hughes babysit Myers and maybe have Zadorov/Hronek together?

It doesn't have to be longterm, but adjustments need to be made. I really just don't know what, though.

 

[I am toxic]

Kuz was playing with Miller so both were on the ice for 3 against in the first period.
The center comes deeper back to help the defence.
Why was the Devil open for Jack's pass? Backchecker peeled off leaving him wide open.

this is completely, 100% wrong.

when you're team has possession, you don't go back and cover someone on the other team that is seagulling - you get open in a passing lane.

In the pro leagues, you absolutely have to act as though your team mate will do their job. Sure, in beer league I go back and cover if the last man back has the puck, because I expect them to flub it. But it's the opposite in the pro leagues.

 

[Nick Lang]

I don't really think that's the case, though. He was a much more effective 5-on-5 player than Boeser but Tocchet has managed to push the right buttons with one guy and all the wrong ones with the other.

He also hasn't been helped by the fact that Pettersson has been so crap at ES.

Yeah I'm not not sure what to think. I sometimes wonder if he's capable of being serious enough to play in this type of system. Only thing I know is he's been very pedestrian out there this season. Maybe RT spent too much time with Boeser that Kuz has been forgotten. I guess all we can do is hope for the best there. Petey was a pretty key cog in his success last year. Tocchet seemed just fed up with him in that presser though.

 

[I am toxic]

Yeah I'm not not sure what to think. I sometimes wonder if he's capable of being serious enough to play in this type of system. Only thing I know is he's been very pedestrian out there this season. Maybe RT spent too much time with Boeser that Kuz has been forgotten. I guess all we can do is hope for the best there. Petey was a pretty key cog in his success last year. Tocchet seemed just fed up with him in that presser though.

Tocchet said Kuz needed to forecheck, and then left it at that.

On a line of EP/Kuz/insert name, insert name should be tasked with the bulk of the forecheck.

Unless one is speaking of all of F1, F2, and F3, then yeah, Kuz has a big role as F3. But expecting him to be F1 is idiotic (obviously other than those times the other team does a reverse, making F3 a temp F1), and criticizing an F1 when your F2 is flailing is missing the point (in addition to being a bad look).

Tocchet is a good coach, but he still has much to learn.

 

[theguardianII]

Tocchet appears to be overdoing it with "details".

He has a good system, but has lost sight of the forest for the trees, giving the players too much feedback on details. Many of them are suffering paralysis from analysis in those split second decisons on the ice.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the player's with simpler roles are the ones underperforming the least.

Which means more videotape may not be a productive way to go.

At least that's how I see it. Tell me why I'm wrong.

The start of the season has raised expectations of fans too high. Even Tocchet was always careful with praise then.
Kuzmenko had more success on the PP because Horvat is the much better than Boeser and Kuz isn't playing as much or the same position.

There are only so many systems in hockey.

Yes there is paralysis by analysis happening, deer in the headlight stuff happening.

This happens when players start getting sat and they worry too much about sitting. The big comments then are Hockey IQ, not trying hard enough or too slow and others.

Kuzmenko just might not complain as much either so he is an easy target.

As bad as Kuzmenko was Miller was there too.

Blaming a single player for losing or deflecting a loss to a player by a coach is a coaching failure. It wasn't like Kuz was passing the puck to the opposition in the slot for a goal.

I hate to say this but it is possible Tocchet has very biased opinions? There have been players that just don't seem to fit with him. OEL is one. I don't think Kuzmenko will ever get a fair shake with Tocchet

 

[Flik]

Man, I woke up and started my work day, but I am still salty about this one. Feels good to give a shit again tbh.

 

[Nick Lang]

Kuz was playing with Miller so both were on the ice for 3 against in the first period.
The center comes deeper back to help the defence.
Why was the Devil open for Jack's pass? Backchecker peeled off leaving him wide open.

Miller loves to cheat up ice so that's nothing new. However, they were expecting anything but a tape to tape pass to the opposing team's best player.

 

[theguardianII]

this is completely, 100% wrong.

when you're team has possession, you don't go back and cover someone on the other team that is seagulling - you get open in a passing lane.

In the pro leagues, you absolutely have to act as though your team mate will do their job. Sure, in beer league I go back and cover if the last man back has the puck, because I expect them to flub it. But it's the opposite in the pro leagues.

Myers did not have possession when Miller peeled off. Peeling off early is sea gulling.

Ever hear of leaving too soon?

 

[I am toxic]

Myers did not have possession when Miller peeled off. Peeling off early is sea gulling.

Ever hear of leaving too soon?totally

If Myers never had possession, then yes, absolutely,

altho, we call it "blowing the zone" at that part of the ice, seagulling is more the offensive end of the rink

 

[God]

damn this place is a real black hole when we lose

canucks hockey is back baby

 

[tradervik]

This was a weird game. I haven't seen the Canucks play that sloppily since Boudreau was fired. It felt like the Canucks suffered temporary amnesia and forgot the system they are supposed to play. Maybe they got caught up in the "Hughes brothers" hype.

In any case, bad games are going to happen. They have a day off to reset their minds and we'll see how they respond against Minnesota.

 

[credulous]

Tocchet appears to be overdoing it with "details".

He has a good system, but has lost sight of the forest for the trees, giving the players too much feedback on details. Many of them are suffering paralysis from analysis in those split second decisons on the ice.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the player's with simpler roles are the ones underperforming the least.

i think tocchet is just not a good strategic or tactical coach

the canucks are playing basically the same system they played under green and that everyone loathed but tocchet somehow gets credit for "systems". his system is really just move the puck to the outside, advance it by any method and then somehow win back the puck on the boards or behind the net

when he talks about "details" like 'can't have both defenders behind the red line' that's just bare basics hockey, not a system. he's not really teaching anything there he's just trying to get players to stick to fundamentally sound defensive play

tocchet's only real advantage skill as a coach is his ability to get players to buy in imo but we're seeing here that the cost of that is alienating players like kuzmenko that aren't suited to his "system"

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

i think tocchet is just not a good strategic or tactical coach

the canucks are playing basically the same system they played under green and that everyone loathed but tocchet somehow gets credit for "systems". his system is really just move the puck to the outside, advance it by any method and then somehow win back the puck on the boards or behind the net

when he talks about "details" like 'can't have both defenders behind the red line' that's just bare basics hockey, not a system. he's not really teaching anything there he's just trying to get players to stick to fundamentally sound defensive play

tocchet's only real advantage skill as a coach is his ability to get players to buy in imo but we're seeing here that the cost of that is alienating players like kuzmenko that aren't suited to his "system"

Travis Greens system basically neutered the the teams offensive capabilities..even our elite players couldn't score..Along with Baumgartner, they completely misread what they had..Boudreau came in and unlocked that potential.

Tocchet's coaching is nothing like Greens..I dont know how you can say that when our players are close to the top of the league in scoring categories.

 

[Buresflyingelbow]

I wonder if Myers walks into the room and goes straight to the showers full gear on to wash the stink off himself? He must feel so uncomfortable in that room making what he does and providing what he does.