Post-Game Talk: [GM26] Canucks lose to Devils | 5-6 (Miller, Joshua, Boeser, Lafferty, & Hoglander) | Snatching Defeat from the Jaws of Adequacy

[valkynax]

Man, I woke up and started my work day, but I am still salty about this one. Feels good to give a shit again tbh.

This season I'm just chilling and coasting along with the ride. To me, it's a season of experimentation and progress.

Whenever you feel things are bad, just have a look at my avatar.

 

[Lawzy]

Well they found two good PK players now in Myers and Zadorov albeit there were only 2 PK situations this game but they were not scored on

Zadorov was on the ice for both PP goals against vs. Calgary, lol.

 

[kanucks25]

This season I'm just chilling and coasting along with the ride. To me, it's a season of experimentation and progress.

Whenever you feel things are bad, just have a look at my avatar.

As much as I agree that this is a building/progression/transition (whatever you wanna call it) season and my expectations are not overly high, I'm just enjoying fanning hard again instead of being at best happy to lose for the tank and at worst completely apathetic.

Not good for the blood pressure but still fun, and much better than the "whatever" feeling I had for the last few years.

 

[kanucks25]

i think tocchet is just not a good strategic or tactical coach

the canucks are playing basically the same system they played under green and that everyone loathed but tocchet somehow gets credit for "systems". his system is really just move the puck to the outside, advance it by any method and then somehow win back the puck on the boards or behind the net

when he talks about "details" like 'can't have both defenders behind the red line' that's just bare basics hockey, not a system. he's not really teaching anything there he's just trying to get players to stick to fundamentally sound defensive play

tocchet's only real advantage skill as a coach is his ability to get players to buy in imo but we're seeing here that the cost of that is alienating players like kuzmenko that aren't suited to his "system"

I agree that his "systems" don't seem overly complicated and as you say, are just basic fundamentals.

But if a player can't grasp said basic fundamentals, is that him alienating the player, or does the player just need to figure his shit (fundamentals) out?

That said, I don't know if Tocchet is handling Kuzmenko the right way overall, and all of a sudden there are a few things that the coach definitely deserves criticism on which he has avoided almost completely so far in his short tenure here.

 

[kanucks25]

Tocchet appears to be overdoing it with "details".

He has a good system, but has lost sight of the forest for the trees, giving the players too much feedback on details. Many of them are suffering paralysis from analysis in those split second decisons on the ice.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the player's with simpler roles are the ones underperforming the least.

Which means more videotape may not be a productive way to go.

At least that's how I see it. Tell me why I'm wrong.

Hard to say without seeing what they're doing behind the scenes.

I think the reason for our recent struggles isn't that complicated: some players that were playing above their heads early on have come back down to the earth (Hronek being exhibit A) and our #1 center has decided once again that he's forgotten how to play hockey.

Wouldn't be surprised if us getting back on track coincides with Petey getting his head out of his ass.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I agree that his "systems" don't seem overly complicated and as you say, are just basic fundamentals.

But if a player can't grasp said basic fundamentals, is that him alienating the player, or does the player just need to figure his shit (fundamentals) out?

That said, I don't know if Tocchet is handling Kuzmenko the right way overall, and all of a sudden there are a few things that the coach definitely deserves criticism on which he has avoided almost completely so far in his short tenure here.

How do you recommend Tocchet deal with Kuzmenko...?... coddle him..?..Kuz knows precisely what he's supposed to do out there, when it comes to taking his guy at the other end of the ice..Obviously, he's still coming to grips executing it.

 

[sting101]

i think tocchet is just not a good strategic or tactical coach

the canucks are playing basically the same system they played under green and that everyone loathed but tocchet somehow gets credit for "systems". his system is really just move the puck to the outside, advance it by any method and then somehow win back the puck on the boards or behind the net

when he talks about "details" like 'can't have both defenders behind the red line' that's just bare basics hockey, not a system. he's not really teaching anything there he's just trying to get players to stick to fundamentally sound defensive play

tocchet's only real advantage skill as a coach is his ability to get players to buy in imo but we're seeing here that the cost of that is alienating players like kuzmenko that aren't suited to his "system"

who would you say is good and why?

 

[valkynax]

As much as I agree that this is a building/progression/transition (whatever you wanna call it) season and my expectations are not overly high, I'm just enjoying fanning hard again instead of being at best happy to lose for the tank and at worst completely apathetic.

Not good for the blood pressure but still fun, and much better than the "whatever" feeling I had for the last few years.

That's totally cool, we're coming off the darkest, dimmest, and without a doubt THE DUMBEST era in Orca history, people gotta find their fandom back in their own ways.

Worst case scenario, everything falls apart and we get to rebuild. And I get to have some hopes in that because Aquaman is held at gunpoint by his family to not touch twitter ever again.

 

[HairyKneel]

who would you say is good and why?

He doesn’t know. Who are the great tacticians out there? Most of this shit is teams playing similar to the same systems but it’s all about execution. Games are won and lost on the PP and PK. Tocchet is a facilitator like most if not all head coaches. The slight edge in coaching comes from the assistants and their execution of their duties.

 

[credulous]

who would you say is good and why?

it's tough to answer because i don't watch a coach like dave hakstol or jared bednar enough to really judge them

i think coaches who coach a very recognizable style like trotz, hitchcock, sullivan and (andy) murray are the most obvious examples of strong tactical coaches. you know those teams when you see them (in a good way if you are only judging on winning. put aside whether they coach an entertaining style)

i think given trotz, hitchcock and sullivan's success over multiple years you can also give them credit for strategic acumen -- they're clearly coaching a winning style. alain vigneault is another coach who i think was excellent strategically even if he wasn't the best tactically. he was excellent at evaluating his roster and getting them to play to their strengths. rod brind'amour is another coach who seems solid but he doesn't have a track record so maybe he just has the right mix of talent for his preferred style

i think tocchet falls short because he's coached the same "system" everywhere he's been and it's one that very few teams have found success with. it's a losing system for loser teams. outside of carolina you don't see any successful teams that just give up on neutral zone offense like the canucks under tocchet (and previously under green). the best teams are the best because they play a 125+ foot game whereas the canucks are playing a 75 foot game

i don't think this means tocchet is a bad coach necessarily. some coaches are motivators, some coaches are tacticians and some coaches are a mix. tocchet just isn't up there with the best tacticians in the league is all

 

[I am toxic]

who would you say is good and why?

Tourigy in AZ

understands the goaltending position, and incorporates both that understanding and the goalies themselves into their defensive play, tailored to the individual goalie who is actually in net at the time.

presumably understands a thing or two about making life difficult for the opposing goalie

 

[sting101]

it's tough to answer because i don't watch a coach like dave hakstol or jared bednar enough to really judge them

i think coaches who coach a very recognizable style like trotz, hitchcock, sullivan and (andy) murray are the most obvious examples of strong tactical coaches. you know those teams when you see them (in a good way if you are only judging on winning. put aside whether they coach an entertaining style)

i think given trotz, hitchcock and sullivan's success over multiple years you can also give them credit for strategic acumen -- they're clearly coaching a winning style. alain vigneault is another coach who i think was excellent strategically even if he wasn't the best tactically. he was excellent at evaluating his roster and getting them to play to their strengths. rod brind'amour is another coach who seems solid but he doesn't have a track record so maybe he just has the right mix of talent for his preferred style

i think tocchet falls short because he's coached the same "system" everywhere he's been and it's one that very few teams have found success with. it's a losing system for loser teams. outside of carolina you don't see any successful teams that just give up on neutral zone offense like the canucks under tocchet (and previously under green). the best teams are the best because they play a 125+ foot game whereas the canucks are playing a 75 foot game

i don't think this means tocchet is a bad coach necessarily. some coaches are motivators, some coaches are tacticians and some coaches are a mix. tocchet just isn't up there with the best tacticians in the league is all

appreciate the response but what "system" are you referring to that is a loser system for loser teams. Who is giving up on neutral zone offence? Are you sure that Tocchet is using the same system as he had before?

125ft game what is that? What are the best tacticians doing today that works so well that Tocchet is not i dont even know ?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Yeah I'm guilty of it too as Hronek, Zadorov, and Cole were also horrible and arguably worse. It's just this is going on 5 years with Myers and into the 100's of horrible games and plays.

Everyone will have bad games, so you can excuse that but with Myers it's just way to many to be anything buy pissed off. I don't know if I'm more excited we may get a playoff round this year or never have to watch Myers play again after this season.

Honestly, Im afraid to say anything negative about Hronek.

 

[credulous]

appreciate the response but what "system" are you referring to that is a loser system for loser teams. Who is giving up on neutral zone offence? Are you sure that Tocchet is using the same system as he had before?

125ft game what is that? What are the best tacticians doing today that works so well that Tocchet is not i dont even know ?

the canucks don't use the center of the ice and would rather advance the puck by chipping it or dumping it towards the opponent end than play to carry the puck in. they barely use the middle of the ice. it's an outdated system and the only team that's seen success with it in recent years is carolina

 

[theguardianII]

Zadorov was on the ice for both PP goals against vs. Calgary, lol.

c'mon! first game, no practice against a bunch of friends he was battling for 48 hours earlier

 

[HairyKneel]

the canucks don't use the center of the ice and would rather advance the puck by chipping it or dumping it towards the opponent end than play to carry the puck in. they barely use the middle of the ice. it's an outdated system and the only team that's seen success with it in recent years is carolina

I disagree I see it as more of a 116 foot game.

 

[Lawzy]

c'mon! first game, no practice against a bunch of friends he was battling for 48 hours earlier

I'd admire your optimism.

 

[theguardianII]

the canucks don't use the center of the ice and would rather advance the puck by chipping it or dumping it towards the opponent end than play to carry the puck in. they barely use the middle of the ice. it's an outdated system and the only team that's seen success with it in recent years is carolina

Dump and pray.
Dumb it down and pray.

Except Hughes and Hronek, they get puck possession and have great numbers. Pettersson has mostly stopped the puck possession game.

It is early yet but it looks like Tocchet is doing what he knows. Dump and chase. A game that relies upon skating speed and board battles. A system used for teams with limited skill levels.

Funny how before Tocchet started this year with "structure and staples" they team won many more games even though they were meaningless games.

Pettersson isn't the Selke candidate he was last year IMO because his finishing checks and hitting robs him of the time needed to get back consistently.

Tocchet has a image of the type of player he wants, he see's it in the mirror everyday. But some players were signed here because they had higher than average skill levels.

I don't like seeing "A" particular player singled out when lines play as lines.

Kuzmenko was signed because he scored, a skill. Both Pettersson and Kuzmenko's games have deteriorated under the new board battle, give the puck away at center ice game.

I really don't like that Boeser keeps getting a free ride from Tocchet. Miller and Boeser and whomever as the forechecker, why not Boeser?

It may be that Tocchet's blind spot is showing. He is a great communicator to media, he should be he had a few years on sports shows. But is he deflecting criticism from some players?

Joshua is a Tocchet guy, runs around banging with the occasional goal here and there. But Tocchet prizes just being physical above skill.

Guys who should not be forecheckers;
Pettersson
Hughes
Hronek
Kuzmenko
even Garland
they should be the #2 guy at best.
Miller has the size and attitude for forechecking but his big issue is back checking mostly because he, like Pettersson get caught behind in the back check.

Do fans remember watching Pettersson deeking out players skating down the ice? Now only when way behind on the scoreboard.