Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part 2

[GCK]

If we have an internal budget at say 65M or so, that would mean 18M to fill about 9 spots.

Wouldn't be much of a problem if we had all our key positions filled, but if we want to get out of the basement we'll need to sign/trade for a top 2 center, top 4 defenseman and possibly a #1 goalie if Murray doesn't get his head out of his ass. That would make things extremely tight as far as fitting them in the budget and filling the remaining spots, especially since Tkachuk and Batherson will need new deals.

If Melnyk agrees to spend 70M+ on the team it won't prevent the team from making such moves, but I'll believe it when I see it.

We won’t be signing a top 2 centre any time soon. We have Norris, Stuetzle and Brown along with Tierney and White next year. We have Pinto in the pipeline as well as possibly Johnson or Beniers. We are committed to Murray so forget about adding a goalie. We could use a top 4 D but we will likely ride Chabot, Brann, Zub, Zaitsev, Sanderson, Wolanin and Brown as our top 7 next year. Our wingers will almost surely be Dadanov, Tkachuk, Batherson, Brown, Formenton, Paul, Watson and then a signing or trade. Not much room for additions.

 

[Tap on the Ankle]

All these backloaded contracts gives me hope that Melnyk is planning to sell. It makes sense - sign some frontloaded contracts now, hope the team improves, then sell it before the higher salaries kick in. The team presents itself as on the road to improvement with some good young talent. Helps maximize the sale price while saving money on salaries in the short-term.

Obviously the second part of that plan is a total bust and I have no idea who would even want to drop hundreds of millions on buying an NHL team right now, let alone the FYOUS edition of the Ottawa Senators.

 

[HSF]

arent most of the contracts backloaded cause of the pandemic and players don't want to pay more into escrow?

Definitely any contracts signed in the last year are designed that way

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

arent most of the contracts backloaded cause of the pandemic and players don't want to pay more into escrow?

Definitely any contracts signed in the last year are designed that way

Little of both most likely. Backloading contracts is a longstanding tradition in Ottawa even dating back to Muckler as well iirc.

 

[hockey20000]

All these backloaded contracts gives me hope that Melnyk is planning to sell. It makes sense - sign some frontloaded contracts now, hope the team improves, then sell it before the higher salaries kick in. The team presents itself as on the road to improvement with some good young talent. Helps maximize the sale price while saving money on salaries in the short-term.

Obviously the second part of that plan is a total bust and I have no idea who would even want to drop hundreds of millions on buying an NHL team right now, let alone the FYOUS edition of the Ottawa Senators.

gotta be worried who he sells 2 though... when he does sell i doubt he will care who it is.. could be a owner wanting to relocate to kansas city or houston ( my opinion where the next nhl team will be after seattle)

 

[coladin]

Back loading contracts doesn't affect the cap hit. Just means we're spending less on salaries now, at the expense of higher salaries later.

For example, Matt Murray's 25M/4YR deal could have been 6.25M in cap hit and salary each year, but instead Dorion backloaded it and he makes 4M this year, 6M in 2021/22, 7M in 2022/23, 8M in 2023/24 - still adds up to 25M and a 6.25M cap hit, but we're getting him cheap now and spending elite #1 goalie money on him in the final years.

Thanks, I get that. But playing the kids, is there not a rule that there has to be a certain amount of money in the lineup or something to that effect?

 

[MCNSTY]

55.5 mil in actual dollars....Even for a rebuild that is laughably bad,add in the next to nothing we pay our front office and yep nothing has changed

Detroit (also rebuilding) is less than a million above us in actual spending. It’s not completely out of the norm.

EDIT: my bad - they spend about $3M more. Not a big difference either way.

 

[IlTerrifico]

It amazes me that Dorion did not take it upon himself to take some kind of Negotiations training to ready himself for NHL deal making. Or if he did, he must have slept through classes and had somebody write the exam for him. Scouting is the furthest thing from preparing someone for making and winning deals.

The other thing he doesn't seem capable of is to look at previous league deals in order to assess where he should be drawing the line on what he can expect to get for what he is giving up.

If he had set a signing date deadline of a week before the trade deadline for Stone, he should have been able to line up several eager buyers, and been able to get most if not all to offer at least Brannstrom quality for the trade, plus a pile of good stuff if they resigned him.

He obviously set up no market for Stone, despite rumours from family members that he thought the Sens were a gong show he wanted to leave, and got nothing for him. Just one example.

Stepan deal was another showing of incompetence. A very average 3rd line talent on the cusp of retiring nets a 2nd? In whose world? The Coyotes may have even been ready to put him on waivers.

This and many other deals over a several year period, shows he is just not good at this.

Even though I approve of risk/reward shots trying to rejuvenate a formerly good player, he opted for Galchenyuk, who hasn't been quality in a few years, over say Athanasiou who at least has speed to burn if he doesn't regain his scoring touch, and had his break out year in 3028-19, or making a play for the huge potential of Josh Anderson. He just doesn't seem to be on the ball in any respect.

 

[MCNSTY]

It amazes me that Dorion did not take it upon himself to take some kind of Negotiations training to ready himself for NHL deal making. Or if he did, he must have slept through classes and had somebody write the exam for him. Scouting is the furthest thing from preparing someone for making and winning deals.

The other thing he doesn't seem capable of is to look at previous league deals in order to assess where he should be drawing the line on what he can expect to get for what he is giving up.

If he had set a signing date deadline of a week before the trade deadline for Stone, he should have been able to line up several eager buyers, and been able to get most if not all to offer at least Brannstrom quality for the trade, plus a pile of good stuff if they resigned him.

He obviously set up no market for Stone, despite rumours from family members that he thought the Sens were a gong show he wanted to leave, and got nothing for him. Just one example.

Stepan deal was another showing of incompetence. A very average 3rd line talent on the cusp of retiring nets a 2nd? In whose world? The Coyotes may have even been ready to put him on waivers.

This and many other deals over a several year period, shows he is just not good at this.

Even though I approve of risk/reward shots trying to rejuvenate a formerly good player, he opted for Galchenyuk, who hasn't been quality in a few years, over say Athanasiou who at least has speed to burn if he doesn't regain his scoring touch, and had his break out year in 3028-19, or making a play for the huge potential of Josh Anderson. He just doesn't seem to be on the ball in any respect.

On Stone - he was only ever going to sign with Vegas - so that immediately put Dorion in a bind.

Could he have gotten more out of Vegas? Potentially. But Vegas knew the bund that Dorion was in and utilized that to their favour. Plus, Stone wasn’t as valued outside of Ottawa as he is now, unfortunately.

 

[BankStreetParade]

It's only 55M because of backloaded contracts. Lots of players with lower 2020/21 salaries than their cap hits:

Chabot's cap hit is 8M, 2020/21 salary is 7M
Murray's cap hit is 6.25M, 2020/21 salary is 4M
Dadonov's cap hit is 5M, 2020/21 salary is 3.5M
White's cap hit is 4.75M, 2020/21 salary is 4M
Brown's cap hit is 3.6M, 2020/21 salary is 2.8M
Tierney's cap hit is 3.5M, 2020/21 salary is 2.8M
Paul's cap hit is 1.35M, 2020/21 salary is 1.2M
Brown's cap hit is 1.2M, 2020/21 salary is 1M

7.35M in savings for 2020/21, at the cost of higher salaries in future years.

If you can believe it watching this year's team, Dorion has actually sacrificed future room in the budget to put this roster together.

All of those guys, except Chabot and White, signed deals in the offseason offsetting the clawbacks for the 2020-21 season. Chabot and White signed RFA extensions where it's typical for players to see their payscale escalate heading into their UFA years. Nothing even remotely out of the ordinary.

C. Brown and Dadonov have 2 more years; Tierney, Paul, J. Brown all have 1 more year after this. There's a whole list of UFAs with expiring contracts, if they're not traded before then. What budgetary concerns do you have exactly?

If you can believe it, your post is unbelievably bad.

 

[BankStreetParade]

It amazes me that Dorion did not take it upon himself to take some kind of Negotiations training to ready himself for NHL deal making. Or if he did, he must have slept through classes and had somebody write the exam for him. Scouting is the furthest thing from preparing someone for making and winning deals.

The other thing he doesn't seem capable of is to look at previous league deals in order to assess where he should be drawing the line on what he can expect to get for what he is giving up.

If he had set a signing date deadline of a week before the trade deadline for Stone, he should have been able to line up several eager buyers, and been able to get most if not all to offer at least Brannstrom quality for the trade, plus a pile of good stuff if they resigned him.

He obviously set up no market for Stone, despite rumours from family members that he thought the Sens were a gong show he wanted to leave, and got nothing for him. Just one example.

Stepan deal was another showing of incompetence. A very average 3rd line talent on the cusp of retiring nets a 2nd? In whose world? The Coyotes may have even been ready to put him on waivers.

This and many other deals over a several year period, shows he is just not good at this.

Even though I approve of risk/reward shots trying to rejuvenate a formerly good player, he opted for Galchenyuk, who hasn't been quality in a few years, over say Athanasiou who at least has speed to burn if he doesn't regain his scoring touch, and had his break out year in 3028-19, or making a play for the huge potential of Josh Anderson. He just doesn't seem to be on the ball in any respect.

Name one other GM in the league whose only Assistant has no hockey experience whatsoever. Rag on the guy all you want but it would be like yelling at a kid for falling over when they're learning how to ride a bike ... that doesn't have training wheels.

There's no support or structure in place. He has a thin pro scouting staff who clearly can't produce results anywhere on the order of the amateur scouting group. What exactly are your expectations given all of that?

 

[BatherSeason]

On Stone - he was only ever going to sign with Vegas - so that immediately put Dorion in a bind.

I have heard this a few times now, not sure this is true, do you have any sources to back this up? Just because he signed doesn't mean that he was only willing to go there.

 

[Chabot84]

Only reason to not fire Dorion is that they aren't going to replace him with a real gm. Those cost money.
Same with DJ although don't see how he's still here next year. Clouston, cameron, maclean, Boucher, DJ, all guys with limited experience who were the or one of the cheapest options available.
When Murray retired that they only considered Randy Lee and Dorion for the position says a lot.

loyalty?

 

[jhutter]

I have heard this a few times now, not sure this is true, do you have any sources to back this up? Just because he signed doesn't mean that he was only willing to go there.

I'm inclined to believe it's true, but regardless they made a big mistake signing him to that one year deal.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

Name one other GM in the league whose only Assistant has no hockey experience whatsoever. Rag on the guy all you want but it would be like yelling at a kid for falling over when they're learning how to ride a bike ... that doesn't have training wheels.

There's no support or structure in place. He has a thin pro scouting staff who clearly can't produce results anywhere on the order of the amateur scouting group. What exactly are your expectations given all of that?

But why aren't these things his responsibility as well? If he's telling Melnyck that's a viable hockey op department then that's his fault. If Melnyck is telling him that he has to succeed on such a small budget, then Dorion has to be making very clear that they have no hope of success in the long run.

Based on my own professional experience, I have made this exact mistake. Company management saying I have to deliver a project in 3 months with 3 engineers, when I knew full well it couldnt be done ... but, I said "Okay, we'll give it our best shot!". That was a screw up on my part, I should have been very firm in saying it wasn't possible.

So I'm not willing to give Dorion a pass on this. It is part of his job as GM to make sure the owner knows what the organization needs to look like to succeed.

 

[topshelf15]

gotta be worried who he sells 2 though... when he does sell i doubt he will care who it is.. could be a owner wanting to relocate to kansas city or houston ( my opinion where the next nhl team will be after seattle)

Yeah cant see the NHL letting that happen there were two offers to buy the team and not only keep the team here,but also do what EM cant do...Build the damned downtown arena

 

[HSF]

ya most of these contracts were designed this way cause that what agents want cause of the pandemic. atleast add some context

 

[Agent Zub]

Name one other GM in the league whose only Assistant has no hockey experience whatsoever. Rag on the guy all you want but it would be like yelling at a kid for falling over when they're learning how to ride a bike ... that doesn't have training wheels.

There's no support or structure in place. He has a thin pro scouting staff who clearly can't produce results anywhere on the order of the amateur scouting group. What exactly are your expectations given all of that?

uhh 60 percent of his job is to be a pro scout. that's how gms build teams, by assessing players.

sure he doesn't have as much resources as others but he has eyes, he sees these players before trading/signing them. and he consistently shows he has no idea what he's doing. people need to stop making excuses for a gm who would be outperformed by the average hf poster.

you know what i think? if you aren't a good hockey player yourself/have experience playing the game it's a lot more sketchy whether you can identify good players or not. obviously it's not an absolute rule but that's what i think about Dorion.

 

[hockey20000]

Yeah cant see the NHL letting that happen there were two offers to buy the team and not only keep the team here,but also do what EM cant do...Build the damned downtown arena

eh i dont trust bettman especially with our attendance numbers if they stay low after covid... houston will look good to the nhl

 

[topshelf15]

I'm inclined to believe it's true, but regardless they made a big mistake signing him to that one year deal.

Its wasnt a mistake...It was EM kicking the can down the road and trying to sell tickets off him for a few months more...

 

[topshelf15]

eh i dont trust bettman especially with our attendance numbers if they stay low after covid... houston will look good to the nhl

Ottawa is a fantastic Hockey market....So good that many believe they need to build a huge hockey arena infastructure project downtown...EM is the one that has failed not the fans

 

[BondraTime]

Name one other GM in the league whose only Assistant has no hockey experience whatsoever. Rag on the guy all you want but it would be like yelling at a kid for falling over when they're learning how to ride a bike ... that doesn't have training wheels.

There's no support or structure in place. He has a thin pro scouting staff who clearly can't produce results anywhere on the order of the amateur scouting group. What exactly are your expectations given all of that?

At the same time, name another team that has a GM that had less than 2.5 years experience in hockey management prior to being made GM.

Chyka was one, he was a train wreck as well

Bergevin was another, he had Rick Dudley as an Assistant and Kevin Gilmore as a President of hockey ops, with over 20 years of GM and AST. GM years between them.

100% agreement he's in no place to succeed, but he also isn't exactly who teams go to looking for a GM, and it shouldn't be surprising he's struggled.

 

[topshelf15]

At the same time, name another team that has a GM that had less than 2.5 years experience in hockey management prior to being made GM.

Chyka was one, he was a train wreck as well

Bergevin was another, he had Rick Dudley as an Assistant and Kevin Gilmore as a President of hockey ops, with over 20 years of GM and AST. GM between them.

You always get what you pay for,if you bargin hunt on everything...Then you likely end up with a cheap uneven product

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

This isn't rocket science. There seem to be a fair amount of posters here even that pretty much predict how acquisitions/trades/re-signings, etc. are gonna go by only using their TV and Internet and then we watch them play out as they predicted.

I could name a few names of people here that i would literally trust more to be making the final call on everything over Dorion and I would be willing to bet that some of them would get better results in the past, present and future. Myself not included.

 

[Yak]

Dorion needs to be replaced if this team wants to go anywhere. He is scout and that's it and will never be anything more other then a EM's puppet. He can't make a decent UFA signing. I hope he get's demoted to Head of Scouting and we bring in a real GM but EM needs to spend on a quality GM and coach.

I know EM does not like to spend on that but if he considers all the mistakes Dorion makes, it would be cheaper to pay for good coaches and GM's, no way do we ever win a Cup with a Dorion or DJ at the helm .