GM Chuck Fletcher v4

[TCTC]

I'll eat a sewer lid if Braun is on the ice more than Ghost this season.

Honestly, I'd keep Ghost on the ice for the entire PP. Him and Giroux should play the entire PP.

 

[hatcher]

In tough close games Braun will play way more then ghost and should.

 

[Rebels57]

Overall or even just at 5v5. Neither would be acceptable.

It’s certainly a real danger.

Braun should be getting bottom pair minutes all year.

My guess is, Braun starts on 2nd pair, but finishes season on bottom pair with some PK duties.

Ghost will have more 5v5 and overall TOI by end of the season.

 

[Rich Nixon]

That’s like saying it makes sense to put Couturier on the 4th line to cause matchup problems.

Wasting Ghost on the 3rd pair is unacceptable. He’s too valuable.

Depends on deployments. They'll make it work. But if you're dealing with a coach who doesn't like to use guys on their off-hand if he doesn't have to, he's not slotting in above Sanheim or Provorov, that's kind of what you get. Injuries and special teams usage will complicate things.

 

[Striiker]

My guess is, Braun starts on 2nd pair, but finishes season on bottom pair with some PK duties.

Ghost will have more 5v5 and overall TOI by end of the season.

If it doesn’t start off that way then our coaching staff is no better than last year.

 

[Striiker]

Depends on deployments. They'll make it work. But if you're dealing with a coach who doesn't like to use guys on their off-hand if he doesn't have to, he's not slotting in above Sanheim or Provorov, that's kind of what you get. Injuries and special teams usage will complicate things.

Sanheim and Ghost should be the two locks for the top 4. Then fill in the other players wherever they fit.

It’s no different than how Giroux and Couturier have to be locks for the top 6.

You don’t move your best out to cater to inferior players.

 

[TCTC]

Ghost will almost certainly start the season on the 3rd pair. Him and Myers played relatively well together last season, so it makes sense.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Sanheim and Ghost should be the two locks for the top 4. Then fill in the other players wherever they fit.

It’s no different than how Giroux and Couturier have to be locks for the top 6.

You don’t move your best out to cater to inferior players.

You do what's best for the whole. "Top 4" is only a concept so far as the idea that there's one really inferior D pairing that gets sheltered. If you construct a team without one of those, then you don't have to use one drastically less than the other two. There's roles and chemistry and handedness and matchups to be considered.

It's about creating three really good pairings. They'll attempt to do that, and to utilize them in a way that wins more hockey games.

 

[flyersfan187]

I don't want to see a Provy/Ghost pairing again. Provy will get the hard minutes out there and I want Ghost to be fresh for what he does best and that is create offense.

 

[TCTC]

You do what's best for the whole. "Top 4" is only a concept so far as the idea that there's one really inferior D pairing that gets sheltered. If you construct a team without one of those, then you don't have to use one drastically less than the other two. There's roles and chemistry and handedness and matchups to be considered.

It's about creating three really good pairings. They'll attempt to do that, and to utilize them in a way that wins more hockey games.

The pairings could be interchangeable really, depending on the opponent, matchups and how they're playing. I guess that's the advantage of not having a true #1 defenseman.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Yeah. No need to create offense when your top line is on the ice.

 

[Rich Nixon]

The pairings could be interchangeable really, depending on the opponent and how they're playing. I guess that's the advantage of not having a true #1 defenseman.

Exactly. And in Ghost's case, 49% of his career points have come on the PP. In his awesome 2017-18 season, it was 51%. He was averaging 3:36 on the PP that year, 17:46 ES. Say he plays the same PP usage and cuts down to 15 minutes ES...against weaker opposition...he's still going to play his game and produce an enormous number of points and be very loved and valuable.

And if that doesn't work, you switch things up.

 

[Striiker]

You do what's best for the whole. "Top 4" is only a concept so far as the idea that there's one really inferior D pairing that gets sheltered. If you construct a team without one of those, then you don't have to use one drastically less than the other two. There's roles and chemistry and handedness and matchups to be considered.

It's about creating three really good pairings. They'll attempt to do that, and to utilize them in a way that wins more hockey games.

Thats not what I’m talking about when I say “top 4”.

I’m talking about the two pairs that will get used most, which is where Sanheim and Ghost need to be, since they’re our two best defensemen and won’t play on the same pair.

Again, it’s the same concept as Giroux and Couturiers usage. We need them used the most of our forwards because they’re our two best and the teams better when they’re on the ice. You could go on about how great the matchups would be with one of them in the bottom 6, but that’s not a bigger advantage than having them used as much as possible and with the best linemates possible.

Having one of our 2 best D on the third pair is a mistake. End of story.

 

[Ruck Over]

Filppula will be great for our middle 6. Expecting big things.

It's a shame we only play Detroit 3 times, or is it 4 this year?

 

[Rich Nixon]

Thats not what I’m talking about when I say “top 4”.

I’m talking about the two pairs that will get used most, which is where Sanheim and Ghost need to be, since they’re our two best defensemen and won’t play on the same pair.

Again, it’s the same concept as Giroux and Couturiers usage. We need them used the most of our forwards because they’re our two best and the team isn’t better when they’re on the ice. You could go on about how great the matchups would be with one of them in the bottom 6, but that’s not a bigger advantage than having them used as much as possible and with the best linemates possible.

Having one of our 2 best D on the third pair is a mistake. End of story.

Would you believe that the second-best player on the Penguins, a 1,000 point Conn Smythe-winning future Hall of Famer, isn't even on the first line?

Nothing to do with roles or redundancy, it's all incompetence!

 

[Striiker]

Would you believe that the second-best player on the Penguins, a 1,000 point Conn Smythe-winning future Hall of Famer, isn't even on the first line?

Right, because he can’t be on the same line as Crosby. Same as Sanheim and Ghost can’t be on the same pair.

What you’re arguing for is the equivalent of putting him on the 4th line.

See why that makes no sense?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

You do what's best for the whole. "Top 4" is only a concept so far as the idea that there's one really inferior D pairing that gets sheltered. If you construct a team without one of those, then you don't have to use one drastically less than the other two. There's roles and chemistry and handedness and matchups to be considered.

It's about creating three really good pairings. They'll attempt to do that, and to utilize them in a way that wins more hockey games.

What's best for the whole. Exactly.

Creating "three really good pairs" is not necessarily the most optimal way to construct a Defense. It might be, but to assume that is terrible process. Even if you throw out the ice time splits, which I absolutely would not do, situations have higher and lower leverage.

There are going to be many team constructions where playing a weaker 3rd pair and stacking a top one or two leads to more wins because it allows you to spoonfeed prime positions to entire 5 man units. If that gets you back more than you lose by weakening the 3rd pair, you've come out ahead.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Right, because he can’t be on the same line as Crosby. Same as Sanheim and Ghost can’t be on the same pair.

What you’re arguing for is the equivalent of putting him on the 4th line.

See why that makes no sense?

I don't, because like 8 inches ago (scrolling) I pointed out that the mythical Top Four is only a thing if you're trying to protect a third pairing. There is no legal mandate that you may not deploy multiple pairings for roughly the same amount of time. In fact, the coach the Flyers just hired has been known to split it fairly even. In 2015, all 6 Rangers' starting defensemen played between 16:24 and 18:49 ES minutes per game. It was the special teams deployment where you saw genuine variation.

So if Ghost ends up on the "third pairing" slurping up 16:20 ES and 3:40 PP, he's still playing 20 minutes per night.

But the situation you're setting up is one where you'll only accept a Ghost/Provorov pairing...and if the team wants that, you'll see it. But I'm not sure that's what they're after.

 

[FLYguy3911]

And almost every team goes with their “top 4” in crunch time and in the playoffs.

 

[TCTC]

Crosby and Malkin can play together. Bylsma used to do that a lot. But having two very good lines makes more sense than having one great line and trash. Just like having three good D pairs makes more sense.

 

[Striiker]

I don't, because like 8 inches ago (scrolling) I pointed out that the mythical Top Four is only a thing if you're trying to protect a third pairing. There is no legal mandate that you may not deploy multiple pairings for roughly the same amount of time. In fact, the coach the Flyers just hired has been known to split it fairly even. In 2015, all 6 Rangers' starting defensemen between 16:24 and 18:49 ES minutes per game. It was the special teams deployment where you saw genuine variation.

And as I just explained 6 inches ago, that concept of top 4 is not what was being referred to. Saying top 4 just means “not on the bottom pair”.

Even IF he plays the pairs fairly close, which remains to be seen, it’s still not acceptable for one of the teams two best defensemen to be playing less, total or at 5v5, than inferior players. They need to be the top 2, same as Giroux and Couturier, for the same reasons.

 

[flyersfan187]

I am not in the group that thinks Ghost and Sanheim are both better players then Provy. Ghost/Provy both had terrible seasons and Sanheim was playing mostly sheltered minutes until put on the top pair in an unfriendly defensive system. Ghost is an elite player when healthy and on top of his offensive game, Provy needs to get his game back to making the simple plays and getting off of the PP, and Sanheim needs to continue to improve. While Myers might have the most potential out of them all.

I am excited to see what AV will get out of our defense.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Crosby and Malkin can play together. Bylsma used to do that a lot. But having two very good lines makes more sense than having one great line and trash. Just like having three good D pairs makes more sense.

You realize this doesn’t line up right?

 

[TCTC]

You realize this doesn’t line up right?

There are 4 forward lines and 3 D pairs, so comparing their TOI doesn't make much sense anyway.
The idea of stacking your top 4 is interesting, but should only be used in specific situations, imo.

 

[dingbathero]

And as I just explained 6 inches ago, that concept of top 4 is not what was being referred to. Saying top 4 just means “not on the bottom pair”.

Okay. See the bolded and underlined. It's so hard to follow along with these new measures of time in place...

So if our top 4 plays like 20+ inches each TOI and our bottom 2 plays, what?

Please help @Striiker