GM Chuck Fletcher v4

[Rebels57]

Jesus, this place is Yikes City nowadays.

 

[Rich Nixon]

I don't care if you or anyone else thinks Gostisbehere is better than X or Y. That's not interesting to me.

What interests me is process. I object to yours because it makes no sense and explained why. How you take that is on you. Feel free to ignore it or me. It's all good.

Nah I ain't gonna ignore you, you're a good hockey fella. I like having back-and-forths about hockey because I like hockey and I like a good argument, that's why most of us are here. But if you're actually here to police logical fallacies or the presentation of opinion as fact or arguments that begin with an undecided conclusion, you're doing a very poor job of it, quite selective, and I found that kinda irksome right there. It's endemic, and my perception there was that it was only an issue because it was an instance you disagreed with.

 

[hatcher]

It is what is is boys so lets enjoy this year and it better be IMO 2 playoff series wins or more trades have to happen and maybe afew before the year.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Nah I ain't gonna ignore you, you're a good hockey fella. I like having back-and-forths about hockey because I like hockey and I like a good argument, that's why most of us are here. But if you're actually here to police logical fallacies or the presentation of opinion as fact or arguments that begin with an undecided conclusion, you're doing a very poor job of it, quite selective, and I found that kinda irksome right there. It's endemic, and my perception there was that it was only an issue because it was an instance you disagreed with.

Oh yeah, not at all. I know I come off harsher than I intend and that it's usually my fault alone.

I'm weird in that I laser focus on process. The whole journey is more fun than the destination thing is me in a sports nutshell. The reason I read about analytics so much and do so much draft prep is that I want to be more likely to be correct in my evaluations every single day. You've got to have drive to improve yourself, you know? To me, that's equal parts hard work and brutal introspection. I'm that harsh to myself, so it's definitely nothing about you or agreeing/disagreeing about a particular player.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Oh yeah, not at all. I know I come off harsher than I intend and that it's usually my fault alone.

I'm weird in that I laser focus on process. The whole journey is more fun than the destination thing is me in a sports nutshell. The reason I read about analytics so much and do so much draft prep is that I want to be more likely to be correct in my evaluations every single day. You've got to have drive to improve yourself, you know? To me, that's equal parts hard work and brutal introspection. I'm that harsh to myself, so it's definitely nothing about you or agreeing/disagreeing.

That's the same reason I do absolutely no draft prep and don't talk really at all about prospects until they've been in the system for like two years.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

That's the same reason I do absolutely no draft prep and don't talk really at all about prospects until they've been in the system for like two years.

Knowing what you don't know is a massive strength.

I did no NHL draf prep this year, so I said nothing and was thankful for the opinions of those that did.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Knowing what you don't know is a massive strength.

I did no NHL draf prep this year, so I said nothing.

The entirety of my draft analysis is based off of names. The Flyers drafted four alliterations this year, so it was a really good draft, but Caufield would've made it five, so I can't help but think they missed a real opportunity to turn a strong draft into an unforgettable bonanza.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The entirety of my draft analysis is based off of names. The Flyers drafted four alliterations this year, so it was a really good draft, but Caufield would've made it five, so I can't help but think they missed a real opportunity to turn a strong draft into an unforgettable bonanza.

I'm not trying to criticize, but I feel this was begging for an adjective describing bonanza that started with B. Baffling bonanza? Bankable? Bacchanalian? I trust you to find the right one. Words are not my strongsuit.

 

[Rich Nixon]

I'm not trying to criticize, but I feel this was begging for an adjective describing bonanza that started with B. Baffling bonanza? Bankable? Bacchanalian? I trust you to find the right one. Words are not my strongsuit.

Ballin'-ass is probably the direction I'd go with that.

 

[bobbythebrain]

Kinda wish Fletch saved the cap for some offersheets

 

[prototypical4thliner]

Honestly based on the players we have, all 3 pairs should get similar TOI at 5V5 next season. Shouldnt be more than 1 minute separating each pair if I had it my way. Then let special teams sort out the rest of the TOI.

It’s situationally based. But all six should be able to start out at similar minutes totaling twenty.

Ghost gets 1st pp

Sanheim and Myers 2nd pp

Provy and niskanen 1st pk

Sanheim and Braun/Myers 2nd pk

If someone shits the bed, alter the minutes or bring morin in.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

Which is why the argument on the other side is to utilize his strengths, still find a way to get him 20 minutes, but let sturdier defenders handle harder defensive assignments and use him where he'll shine. His career TOI average is right around 20 minutes, with about 15:30+ of that at ES and 3:30+ on the PP. Nearly 50% of his points come on the PP. If you have him specialized like that, you'll still get a ton of production out of him, probably more durability, and you'll be in good shape no matter what happens.

We have such a potentially diverse defensive group this year, even more so next year. We can actually benefit from seeking selective matchups. Ghost going against third and forth liners could cave them in, especially now that we have good forward depth. At the very least, our third line is now an offensive threat.

Niskanen and Braun, whomever they are paired with, will defer to their partner for offense. Sanheim and provorov can take some gambles joining the rush; at the very least Braun and niskanen have the situational awareness to know when to stay back and defend a potential 2 on 1. I didn’t see this from Macdonald.

 

[tucson83]

If Braun and Niskanen aren't expected to play key roles, why are we spending $11M in cap and putting them in the top 4?

We made our top 2 pairs worse. The contortions people are making to justify these moves are hilarious.

because you want an all ahl lineup, you dont want any upgrades, everything has to be internal because you want to be cheap, any player that comes here externally according to you is a downgrade.

 

[YEM]

chuck fletcher tucks his shirt into his underpants

 

[baudib1]

because you want an all ahl lineup, you dont want any upgrades, everything has to be internal because you want to be cheap, any player that comes here externally according to you is a downgrade.

I've been the most vocal advocate on this board for acquiring:
Spurgeon
Zucker
Panarin
Karlsson
Marner
Nylander
Kapanen

and, retroactively (knowing how cheap the price was)
P.K. Subban
Joe Pavelski

Those are upgrades. Niskanen and Braun aren't. Some of these guys may not have been available, but really we'll never know if Panarin would have said yes to 7X12 or what would happen if we forced Toronto to trade us Kapanen under the threat of having space to offer sheet Marner.

 

[Norze]

Those are upgrades. Niskanen and Braun aren't.

My unicorn argees with you.... 110%

 

[tucson83]

I've been the most vocal advocate on this board for acquiring:
Spurgeon
Zucker
Panarin
Karlsson
Marner
Nylander
Kapanen

and, retroactively (knowing how cheap the price was)
P.K. Subban
Joe Pavelski

Those are upgrades. Niskanen and Braun aren't. Some of these guys may not have been available, but really we'll never know if Panarin would have said yes to 7X12 or what would happen if we forced Toronto to trade us Kapanen under the threat of having space to offer sheet Marner.

seriously, what's your complaining about the moves on this board going to do? nothing, fletcher is doing the moves whatever you like it or not, now either you accept that or root for another team because he's not going to listen to you, he's not hextall.

 

[Striiker]

I don't want to use the word "fallacy" because it isn't that, so I'll just go with "position": the position at the heart of your argument here is that Ghost is the best or second-best defenseman on the team. That's not one that everyone shares.

Believe me, I'm extremely aware that many on this board don't pay attention and have alarmingly short memories.

There's really no argument to be made to the contrary. The only argument is Sanheim vs Ghost for the top spot, but there's a clear separation between those two and everyone else. Provorov's only claim to fame here was that he played at a high level when paired with Ghost and his TOI.

There's arguments to be made in each direction, and it comes down to priorities. Ghost is a really weird player. A homeless man's Karlsson or a billionaire's Del Zotto, let's say.

Ghost is really good at what he's really good at, and he's not downright bad at anything else. Very good at defending the rush, incredible on the breakout, obviously a beast in the offensive zone when he's on his game. His in-zone defense is a bit lacking: He tends to lose position and he's not phenomenal in the trenches.

So you're saying he's really bad at board battles but really good at everything else? Well that sounds perfectly fine to me. Be great at the important stuff and don't worry about the rest. Nobodies perfect and what matters is the good SEVERELY outweighing the bad, like it does here.

He's certainly no liability in the defensive zone and in fact he's easily better there than most of our D, just by being great at the things that actually matter.

If I had to give you a forward comparable, I'd say Kessel is a good one. Fantastic player, but there's areas where you're just not sure he's ever going to be complete.

That's a horrible comparison.

If you want to compare him to someone, the best option is Giroux.

When on his game, he's one of he best offensive players in the league and he more than holds his own defensively through quickness, smarts, and talent. Only down side is size, but it's clearly made up for by being great everywhere else.

This antiquated mentality that defense is board battles and fighting in front of the net is dinosaur talk. Quick retrieval, quick thinking, quick puck movement... that's how you prevent goals. Both of them are very good at that.

Another thing Giroux and Ghost share is that they can completely dominate a season but as soon as they have a relatively poor year, the memories of their ability just magically disappears from peoples heads. Fans are so quick to forget how valuable the player is and then want them traded.

Unlike for forwards, though, a defenseman has got to be really, really well-rounded to be one of the best defenders on your team. Ghost does things no other Flyers defenseman can do, and what only a handful of others in the league can do. He also is worse at things that literally dozens of lesser players can handle.

Well that's just plain not true.

Is Karlsson not one of the best defenders on his team? Because I don't see him grinding in the corners and hitting. He's too busy moving and possessing the puck.

Your best players are the ones who have the greatest net impact. Even if Ghosts defense was bad, which we know it's not, his offense would easily make up for it and solidify him as one of our best defensemen.

And again, that last sentence is just nonsense. You're falling prey to stereotypes, not actual events. Unless you're exclusively talking about grinding and hitting? If so, then again, it doesn't matter in 2019.

The disconnect is that many of us don't see him as an all-situations defenseman, and that's not to say we don't love the guy.

Which is why the argument on the other side is to utilize his strengths, still find a way to get him 20 minutes, but let sturdier defenders handle harder defensive assignments and use him where he'll shine. His career TOI average is right around 20 minutes, with about 15:30+ of that at ES and 3:30+ on the PP. Nearly 50% of his points come on the PP. If you have him specialized like that, you'll still get a ton of production out of him, probably more durability, and you'll be in good shape no matter what happens.

Well then that's an evaluation flaw on your part. Don't know what else I can say...

And again, stereotypes. "let sturdier defenders handle harder defensive assignments"... Ghost is one of our best defensemen at preventing goals, just through his offensive abilities alone. You know what the best way to prevent Crosby or McDavid from scoring is? Not letting them touch the puck.

We saw how effective Ghost was defensively in the 2nd half of 2017-2018... we have proof of this concept.

As for PP points, you say that as if it means he's bad at scoring 5v5, when the reality is the opposite. The 50% means he's insane on the PP. Before last years sabotage, the only defensemen above him in PP points was Burns.... and that was 4 more points in 28 more games. Meanwhile he was tied for 6th in total P/GP, of guys with over 200 games played. (And don't forget this includes his injured year)

He needs to be used as much as possible because the team is better with him out there, more so than any D on the team, except maybe Sanheim.

Not trying to change your mind about anything, because your mind is unchangeable--part of your youthful beauty. That's just kinda where the divide is. I'd be all for playing him like the top defenseman on the team if I saw him as that, but I don't really know where to rank him. His skillset is hard to pigeonhole.

Well the just trust me, because I do know.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Yeah, let’s just forgo improving our non-playoff team in order to leave the huge amount of cap space necessary to offer sheet a top player — a course of action with a near zero percent success rate.

 

[bauer]

Jesus, this place is Yikes City nowadays.

seriously. there are people here who think Myers (who has played 21 games) deserves more ice time than Niskanen, who was a #2 D on a cup winning team a year ago. people are too damn obsessed with our young players. if they were that good, we wouldn't have been suck in eternal mediocrity for the last decade.

 

[Striiker]

seriously. there are people here who think Myers (who has played 21 games) deserves more ice time than Niskanen, who was a #2 D on a cup winning team a year ago. people are too damn obsessed with our young players. if they were that good, we wouldn't have been suck in eternal mediocrity for the last decade.

Has Myers been on the team for the last decade?

Sanheim?

Provorov?

Ghost?

TK?

Patrick?

Any of the young guys?

How many of these guys are even 1% to blame for the last decade of mediocrity?

You can say you think it’s too early for Myers to be above Niskanen but that last sentence is nonsense.

 

[deadhead]

I have an idea, let's see how they look in training camp!

Somehow I doubt that Niskanen and Braun are washed up after playing 20+ minutes a night in the playoffs, and aren't as good as a 3rd pair D-man with 15 PO games under his belt or AMac or Hagg. Braun played ahead of Dillon, would you have accepted an AMac/Hagg for Dillon trade?

Now we know the truth, Striiker is Ghost's relative, or has a serious man crush, hyperbole city, Batman!
I didn't know Ghost was as good as EK. Just a matter of time until he racks up multiple Norris trophies.
Of course, he'll have to show he can play 25 minutes a night without breaking down.

If a forward prospect can't beat out Pitlick or Raffl or NAK in camp, they should be in LHV.
Since we're going to carry 13 forwards, there's a spot to be won by any kid ready to seize it.

 

[bauer]

Has Myers been on the team for the last decade?

Sanheim?

Provorov?

Ghost?

TK?

Patrick?

Any of the young guys?

How many of these guys are even 1% to blame for the last decade of mediocrity?

You can say you think it’s too early for Myers to be above Niskanen but that last sentence is nonsense.

the point is, common sense needs to be made here. Myers shouldn't be gifted anything until he has proven he can play at a high level for a lengthy period of time. there is nothing wrong with having him 3RHD next year. it annoys me seeing people put him in the top 4 over a proven vet like Niskanen. Myers is simply not good enough yet. someday? perhaps. next season? highly unlikely.

we all make the mistake of putting too much on these kids. i've been guilty of it too. we have a history of putting young players in roles that they are clearly unprepared for.

 

[deadhead]

When a young player is ready, it's pretty obvious.
Young players can flash for a period or a game, but it's being able to bring it consistently night in and night out over an extended period that makes you NHL ready.

 

[Striiker]

the point is, common sense needs to be made here. Myers shouldn't be gifted anything until he has proven he can play at a high level for a lengthy period of time. there is nothing wrong with having him 3RHD next year. it annoys me seeing people put him in the top 4 over a proven vet like Niskanen. Myers is simply not good enough yet. someday? perhaps. next season? highly unlikely.

we all make the mistake of putting too much on these kids. i've been guilty of it too. we have a history of putting young players in roles that they are clearly unprepared for.

Meanwhile people are fine with gifting spots to vets who just came off awful years. Having them in large roles could easily backfire too.

I’ve been penciling in Myers for the 3rd line, so I’m not one of the people you’re talking about, but I’m just saying, no matter what, someone is getting gifted a spot next year. So I can understand some people wanting to swing for the fences and go with youthful potential.