Post-Game Talk: GM 29: Canucks def. Senators 5-2 on Burrows Night

[David71]

anybody have the clip of what it appeared, boeser getting mad at miller all the way to the bench and on the bench after a play.

there was nothing reported on it, but several interviews with players afterwards that mentioned how theres been hostility while the team was losing

can't find it on twitter

where is this? thats surprisingg.

 

[DL44]

Star players have a big say in who they play with. So there's that. Unless the star is very much struggling, you won't see a change. He gets his best friend on the line

Sooo are you saying you don't perceive Boeser as struggling 5on5 thru 27 GM's relative to previous yrs?

 

[YouNeedToBeInformed]

where is this? thats surprisingg.

I don't believe i misinterpreted what was happening on the ice/bench between them but the stories that immediately followed mentioned locker room issues. im paraphrasing but something like "yeah it's nice to win , the guys stop blaming each other , when everybody is winning, things are good", this was said by more than one canucks player. not either of boeser or miller. and I heard a couple guys on the canucks radio assume the comments about locker room issues /blaming each other were were referring to past seasons when it seemed clear they were referring to the losing streak they had JUST ended.

I remember it rubbing me the wrong way because Boeser is one of those guys who can disappear and hardly battles and Miller is if not, our hardest working player. He even had pt/pts in that game as well I remember. And Millers reaction looked like Edlers when the coach was reaming him out

Occurred after a PP where Miller clearly did something Boeser didn't agree with. I didn't see the play that Boeser had an issue with. Definitely wasn't a terrible play, perhaps just not what Boeser wanted

 

[YouNeedToBeInformed]

Sooo are you saying you don't perceive Boeser as struggling 5on5 thru 27 GM's relative to previous yrs?

Are you asking for my opinion or the coach's? The coach doesn't see it as an issue. When the team has a respectable record, through the first portion of games, dominated 5 on 5 as far as possession goes. This is still only their 2nd season together and I believe the coach sees it as growing pains and if theyre not struggling as a whole, it's most likely not an issue (for now). A lot of things come down to struggling as a team. I think if the PP wasn't clicking with Pettersson/Boeser, you would see the change. But they are putting up the points, which buys them more time

Me personally, I disagree. I agree with Boeser with Horvat. Always have to be honest. Miller is better suited on the top line. I knew right away that Miller should be there and ferland lower in the lineup. Coaches and GMs operate in a different manner. Outdated IMO

It is especially tough to try when your bottom 6 is injured as they use horvat as a shutdown guy. Boeser on horvat's shut down line would be atrocious. So there's that

 

[lawrence]

anybody have the clip of what it appeared, boeser getting mad at miller all the way to the bench and on the bench after a play.

there was nothing reported on it, but several interviews with players afterwards that mentioned how theres been hostility while the team was losing

can't find it on twitter

I recall something from Reddit from a road fan who was at one of the road Canuck games mentioned boeser and miller arguing at the bench and it was hard to see them take their frustrations out on each other.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Big break in the schedule...after Saturdays game against the Sabres....Next game isn't until Tuesday against the Leafs.

 

[YouNeedToBeInformed]

I recall something from Reddit from a road fan who was at one of the road Canuck games mentioned boeser and miller arguing at the bench and it was hard to see them take their frustrations out on each other.

yeah it was a highlight on sportsnet or something as well. but not a single reporter followed up on it. i didn't see any posts about it here either. thought i saw a gif of miller while boeser was yelling in his ear but can't seem to find that on twitter either

i can definitely say it was not Miller, Miller was sitting there staring straight ahead the whole time, what looked like him taking it because Boeser is a core piece on the team and he has to.

but perhaps there was some argument at an earlier time as well. not sure

 

[tyhee]

whats with the hate on demko? I don't understand why going down early on the corner is bad. In fact it limits the chances of the puck hitting a part of the leg then goes in.

Criticizing a specific technique isn't personal and isn't "hate." Calling it hate is personalizing it.

 

[mossey3535]

Oh for sure. It's just so stark to me the way he stood out every single shift last year, whereas he's been largely invisible in many of the games I've watched lately. Still tonight was his 100th game and he notched his 98th point. Not bad.

Boeser is the one I'm somewhat concerned with. Guy just looks like Vanek at times, floating around while randomly popping in the odd goal.

Yes, and I think it compounds peteys problems since Boeser is so inconsistent. I'm convinced Brock was injured most of last year, but I'm equally convinced he's healthy this year. He can turn on the jets if he wants to this year, while last year he would take several strides but go nowhere. It really is lack of will with him IMO. If you think about it, had miller not done what he has so far the problem would be even worse.

 

[whoshouse]

I’m just convinced that Pettersson, Miller and Boeser just aren’t the right linemates at this moment. On the surface they look like they compliment each other but they actually play different games.

Since Millers broke in to the league he’s been a tunnel vision type player. Straight line although hard working and defensively responsible, he usually looks for his shot first or tries to do too much with the puck. A tad bit on the selfish side. He definitely hasn’t deferred to either Pettersson or Boeser much.

And people might say, so what? Well when you have someone with the skill set of Pettersson on your line, everything should run through him. Pettersson is distribution is the best part of his game.

Now I’ve got nothing against Boeser but he needs a centre that forechecks and gets him the puck while he sits in the slots and winds up for that slap shot. Pettersson is more cerebral and defensively responsible. Boeser is more a fit with Horvat whose able to fly around and create plays.

Although on the surface the Miller Pettersson Boeser line looks great, I don’t think they compliment each other as well as others do. And I’ve felt this way since the beginning of the season. On the power play, definitely play them together. But 5 on 5 id actually split all three up.

Miller wouldn’t look bad centring his own line.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

 

[Diversification]

I'm ok with EP not producing at ES right now. IMO this was always going to be a transitional year for him, the typical sophomore slump. He's not suprising everyone and people are clearly game planning for him. Not as much ice as last season. As the year goes on I think he'll figure it out 5v5, to me it's more about him bouncing back next season.

If you look at it that way, the fact that he is PPG is not only amazing but a huge bonus in terms of where I thought his development curve would be.

EP at 5v5 would benefit from playing a bit more selfishly. He undercuts himself when he dumps the puck into the corner and tries to win it back. He undercuts himself when he doesn't skate himself into a better position to receive the puck back, rather erring on being in sound defensive position. The worst way he undercuts himself is by going to the front of the net to battle for position for tip-ins and screening the goalie.

None of those things play to his strengths. And while it's admirable that he does them anyways, he's not effective at it with his current build. I daresay, that style of play will never be his forte.

He should let a guy like Miller assume more of those responsibilities, which will let EP cheat more often and get his shot off cleanly or make a pass for a tap-in.

 

[tantalum]

This doesn't make sense to me. They scored 4 goals in the first which naturally dictated how the rest of the game was played. They probably wouldn't have scored that many against those other teams. Scoring effects are a thing, especially when the other team keeps working, which the Sens clearly did. I'm not surprised at all it played out like that after the first, like pretty much every team in the league, the Senators out-attempt, out-shoot, out-chance and out-score the other team when they are trailing.

Score effects are real. However, I think it's important to understand what a typical score effect is. That's when a team in the lead goes into a defensive shell so that the opposition gains a natural edge in possession. That edge in possession, though, need not lead to an imbalance of scoring chances because the team in the lead is simply looking to keep things to the outside, clog up the neutral zone and looking to catch a pressing opposition out of position on a counter attack.

You may get outshot but you aren't actually getting outchanced. Getting simply outshot will lead to more goals against as the more shots the more chances for someone to make a mistake. A non-chance that can lead to the twine bulging...goalies get tired when they have to be in a ready stance for extended periods of zone pressure for example.

Getting significantly outchanced isn't really a score effect...it's poor defense. And that was especially the case in the second.

 

[Grumbler]

Lucky the opponent was the Senators, instead of the Caps, Pens or Oilers.....Canucks outshot 42-27 in their own building, and needed at least six or seven 10-bell saves from Demko to keep the gap at three goals.

I have not idea what it is, but this team just bleeds high-end scoring chances. I guess you take the two points and move on. But wow, this was a sloppy effort.

They need two or three practices where they focus on nothing more than zone exits and defensive zone coverage. Don't see how Green can put much of a positive spin on this game.

We been consistently doing that the past couple of years. This was one of the worst games, not as bad as the Pit game but still pretty bad. Getting dominated by one of the worst teams in the league.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

Sloppy take my guy. His passing and his instincts are constantly understated, by those who think he should somehow be doing better than what he brings? He made an important goal happen tonight with his IQ. Your worry is absolutely misplaced

It’s typical HFCancuks fashion to point the finger at the least problem while ignore real problems

 

[I am toxic]

Score effects are real. However, I think it's important to understand what a typical score effect is. That's when a team in the lead goes into a defensive shell so that the opposition gains a natural edge in possession. That edge in possession, though, need not lead to an imbalance of scoring chances because the team in the lead is simply looking to keep things to the outside, clog up the neutral zone and looking to catch a pressing opposition out on the counter attack. You may get outshot but you aren't actually getting outchanced (getting simply outshot will lead to more goals against as the more shots the more chances for someone to make a mistake that a non-chance that leads to the twine bulging...goalies get tired when they have to be in a ready stance for extended periods of zone pressure for example) . Getting significantly outchanced isn't really a score effect...it's poor defense. And that was especially the case in the second.

This. So much this.

Our goalies are way overworked on scoring chances. Outside shots while pressuring the shooter is one thing, shots in the slot with lots of time and space is brutal.

 

[DL44]

Score effects are real. However, I think it's important to understand what a typical score effect is. That's when a team in the lead goes into a defensive shell so that the opposition gains a natural edge in possession. That edge in possession, though, need not lead to an imbalance of scoring chances because the team in the lead is simply looking to keep things to the outside, clog up the neutral zone and looking to catch a pressing opposition out of position on a counter attack.

You may get outshot but you aren't actually getting outchanced. Getting simply outshot will lead to more goals against as the more shots the more chances for someone to make a mistake. A non-chance that can lead to the twine bulging...goalies get tired when they have to be in a ready stance for extended periods of zone pressure for example.

Getting significantly outchanced isn't really a score effect...it's poor defense. And that was especially the case in the second.

Getting outchanced isn't really a score effect? Really reaching to criticize the D here.
You spell out the ideal.. Outside of some of the elite, it's not common to consistently keep a team from getting some quality chances when in shell sporting a 2-3-4 goal lead...
Just glad we are managing to earn 2-3-4 goal leads to play with.

tangent:
The most useful information i glean from SAT% is in the following 2 areas at the end of a season..
the rest is noise to me..

6-7 teams with the highest SAT% while ahead - are pretty good at controlling play
6-7 teams with the lowest SAT% while behind - not very good

 

[tantalum]

Getting outchanced isn't really a score effect? Really reaching to criticize the D here.
You spell out the ideal.. Outside of some of the elite, it's not common to consistently keep a team from getting some quality chances when in shell sporting a 2-3-4 goal lead...
Just glad we are managing to earn 2-3-4 goal leads to play with.

tangent:
The most useful information i glean from SAT% is in the following 2 areas at the end of a season..
the rest is noise to me..

6-7 teams with the highest SAT% while ahead - are pretty good at controlling play
6-7 teams with the lowest SAT% while behind - not very good

The score effect is a general pattern of behaviour that teams sit back into a defensive shell when they have a lead. It happens across all coaches, players and teams as a matter of what is general human behaviour. But you can't just simply say "oh well that was a score effect" when a team is outplayed when they have the lead. It's a macro generality that doesn't give you insight to how well the team plays in such situations compared to their peers.

You are completely correct that some teams are better at managing a lead...that's the micro part of things. That's a measure of the teams general defensive ability (both player and system). Can they play defense at a level that stems the tide and gets them through a game when they sit back. The canucks are among the worst at controlling scoring chance share when leading. When leading by 1 they are bottom 5. When leading overall they are 20th (essentially bottom third). When within a goal they are 15th. Tied they are 14th. My guess is those numbers are getting worse as the season goes on.

What that tells me is this: When they push forward they are middling in controlling the chance share but it's through offensive push rather than limiting chances through defensive ability. When they sit back (the basic score effect) they often get owned. That getting owned says to me that they cannot rely on their defensive play because they simply aren't very good at it. Instead they rely on the goaltender. Admittedly they are better this year than the last couple but I'm not convinced they are heads and shoulders better.

No doubt a chunk of it is coaching. Either the system isn't good or they don't know how to play it. But there is a chunk that is also very much due to personnel. They have D-men that struggle against opposition zone entries no matter the situation. They have many forwards that struggle with defensive play.

 

[Bankerguy]

Miller Pettersson Gaudette
Virtanen Horvat Boeser
Pearson Sutter Ferland
Roussel Beagle Leivo

if Gaudette can score at a 50 point pace over the course of a whole season, then i could totally live with a lineup like that.
That bottom six looks good.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

So grateful to have such a tremendous owner, this video really highlights that. We’re so lucky when you look at the owners we used to have and then looking around the league at other owners, we have great owners now who clearly love the team as much as we do and they definitely deserve a cup.

 

[DL44]

The score effect is a general pattern of behaviour that teams sit back into a defensive shell when they have a lead. It happens across all coaches, players and teams as a matter of what is generla human behaviour. But you can't just simply say "oh well that was a score effect" when a team is outplayed. It's a macro phenomenon that doesn't give you insight to the micro.

You are completely correct that some teams are better at managing a lead...that's the micro part of things. That's a measure of the teams general defensive ability (both player and system). The canucks are among the worst at controlling scoring chances when leading. When leading by 1 they are bottom 5. When leading overall they are about bottom third. When within a goal they are 15th. Tied they are 14th.

And that's where goaltending and special teams comes into the equation to tip the balance back in our favor.

This was also a 3rd in 4 nights after a long arse roadie... after an emotional period in which they put up a 4 spot while being just fine defensively.... That locker room was obviously satisfied after 20.. and probably spent.

Coach giving the team 2 days off is a pretty good sign its probably been a grinding 18 day run.

There are better spots to pick to criticize the D than last night.

 

[DL44]

Miller Pettersson Gaudette
Virtanen Horvat Boeser
Pearson Sutter Ferland
Roussel Beagle Leivo

if Gaudette can score at a 50 point pace over the course of a whole season, then i could totally live with a lineup like that.
That bottom six looks good.

That lineup feels.. not right.

Using your bodies, I would reshuffle to:

Miller-Pettersson-Boeser
Roussel-Horvat-Virtanen
Pearson-Gaudette-Sutter
Ferland-Beagle-Leivo

 

[tantalum]

And that's where goaltending and special teams comes into the equation to tip the balance back in our favor.

This was also a 3rd in 4 nights after a long arse roadie... after an emotional period in which they put up a 4 spot while being just fine defensively.... That locker room was obviously satisfied after 20.. and probably spent.

Coach giving the team 2 days off is a pretty good sign its probably been a grinding 18 day run.

There are better spots to pick to criticize the D than last night.

And the Senators were playing their 5th game in 7 or 8 nights as well. It was a lengthy road trip but it was also one with plenty of rest. No back to backs. a three day break between games 5 and 6. Prior to the Oiler back to back the last one of those was before the 4 game home stand. Ottawa in that time frame had 3 (and complete a 4th tonight). People need to stop using scheduling etc as excuses. Every team has scheduling issues...they may be different ones but they have issues.

Of course there are better spots to criticize the D than last night. That doesn't mean the D is without criticism...

And I wouldn't go so far as to say they were just fine defensively in the first either.

 

[DL44]

Of course there are better spots to criticize the D than last night. That doesn't mean the D is without criticism...

And I wouldn't go so far as to say they were just fine defensively in the first either.

Score effects.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

I missed most of the 2nd period last night but for the most part the sustained zone time and offense that Ottawa generated was largely on the perimeter.

No problem with Green backing things off and allowing our guys to practice defending a lead when we’re up 4 goals.

Hilarious that people who were criticizing the team’s strong possession metrics dismissed it because of score effects and now that we’re being outshot while leading by 3-4 goals they magically forgot all about their score effects argument. So convenient. Very intellectually honest. Amazing good faith debaters we have.