Proposal: Gibson to the Avs

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I doubt that you will be able to find a team full of players that outplay their contracts. Schmaltz basically player upto a level close to his contract, gap is small if there at all. Again not sure where you are getting the impression that Schmaltz is a cap dump.

As for the goaltending, I don't think Grubauer would be able to duel against Vasi or the Vegas tandem, no matter what his short term number says. Grubauer is good enough, if healthy, for an average playoff team. He's not the same level of goalie that guys like Vasi or Rask are.

Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it shouldn't be the goal. Schmaltz may be playing up to his contract, but we have MacKinnon and Kadri both under contract through next season, and Newhook coming. $5.85m for a 3C is horrible cap usage, and Sakic is smarter than that. So, the only reason Schmaltz would logically be included in the trade is to save Arizona money... aka a cap dump.

As for goaltending, from 2018-19 until today, the difference in regular season SV% between Lehner (0.923) Vasilevsky (0.922) and Grubauer (0.918) is <5 goals per 1000 shots. In the playoffs during that time, Grubauer and Lehner are tied for the 5th best SV% at 0.924. Vasilevsky is 12th at 0.918. That's over 80+ games, and 10+ playoff games, so these aren't just short term numbers. And, 2018-19, we were a playoff bubble team, so let's not pretend it's all because of the team.

 

[sandybridge]

Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it shouldn't be the goal. Schmaltz may be playing up to his contract, but we have MacKinnon and Kadri both under contract through next season, and Newhook coming. $5.85m for a 3C is horrible cap usage, and Sakic is smarter than that. So, the only reason Schmaltz would logically be included in the trade is to save Arizona money... aka a cap dump.

As for goaltending, from 2018-19 until today, the difference in regular season SV% between Lehner (0.923) Vasilevsky (0.922) and Grubauer (o.918) is <5 goals per 1000 shots. In the playoffs during that time, Grubauer and Lehner are tied for the 5th best SV% at 0.924. Vasilevsky is 12th at 0.918. These aren't short term numbers. And, 2018-19, we were a playoff bubble team, so let's not pretend it's all because of the team.

Hey, it's really your own fault that your management never really gave Jost a chance to develop. Schmaltz may be expensive for 3C, he could easily also play 2nd line W if needed (and if Newhook is even ready next year).

Again, there are a lot of hot goalies during specific seasons or playoff runs. Very few can be relied on a high level every season and every run; some goalies like Raycroft, Binnington, Murray, Lehner, Andersen, etc. They can get hot for a while, but not realiable on a long term basis. Basically you have guys like Vasi, Price, and Rask that are basically money in the bank when comes to important runs.

 

[Richard88]

I doubt that you will be able to find a team full of players that outplay their contracts. Schmaltz basically player upto a level close to his contract, gap is small if there at all. Again not sure where you are getting the impression that Schmaltz is a cap dump.

As for the goaltending, I don't think Grubauer would be able to duel against Vasi or the Vegas tandem, no matter what his short term number says. Grubauer is good enough, if healthy, for an average playoff team. He's not the same level of goalie that guys like Vasi or Rask are.

I mean Grubauer just split a low-scoring 4 game series against Fleury which suggests that you're wrong. Grubauer's save % in the playoffs in 2 runs with Colorado is .924 and GAA of 2.15. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Obviously Vasilevsky is next level, but he's also paid $10m so Tampa are going to have shortfallings elsewhere on the roster. For example, Tampa's D group isn't as deep as Colorado's.

 

[Richard88]

Hey, it's really your own fault that your management never really gave Jost a chance to develop. Schmaltz may be expensive for 3C, he could easily also play 2nd line W if needed (and if Newhook is even ready next year).

Again, there are a lot of hot goalies during specific seasons or playoff runs. Very few can be relied on a high level every season and every run; some goalies like Raycroft, Binnington, Murray, Lehner, Andersen, etc. They can get hot for a while, but not realiable on a long term basis. Basically you have guys like Vasi, Price, and Rask that are basically money in the bank when comes to important runs.

That argument about Jost is so tired. Jost never had the skating to be a top 6 forward and no matter how many seasons of NCAA hockey was ever going to change that.

 

[Richard88]

Hey, it's really your own fault that your management never really gave Jost a chance to develop. Schmaltz may be expensive for 3C, he could easily also play 2nd line W if needed (and if Newhook is even ready next year).

Again, there are a lot of hot goalies during specific seasons or playoff runs. Very few can be relied on a high level every season and every run; some goalies like Raycroft, Binnington, Murray, Lehner, Andersen, etc. They can get hot for a while, but not realiable on a long term basis. Basically you have guys like Vasi, Price, and Rask that are basically money in the bank when comes to important runs.

Remind me, how did Vasilevsky do in the 2019 playoffs?

And how many times has Carey Price taken his team beyond the 2nd round?

Money in the bank!

 

[sandybridge]

Remind me, how did Vasilevsky do in the 2019 playoffs?

And how many times has Carey Price taken his team beyond the 2nd round?

Money in the bank!

Of course you need a decent rest of the team as well. I don't think you can pit Canadiens' rest of the roster against Aves', in any way shape or form. He did pretty well against a superior team like the Pens.

 

[sandybridge]

I mean Grubauer just split a low-scoring 4 game series against Fleury which suggests that you're wrong. Grubauer's save % in the playoffs in 2 runs with Colorado is .924 and GAA of 2.15. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Obviously Vasilevsky is next level, but he's also paid $10m so Tampa are going to have shortfallings elsewhere on the roster. For example, Tampa's D group isn't as deep as Colorado's.

Right, it's always a tradeoff, but it doesn't seem to be an issue in Colorado, since there isn't any cap constraints there for the next period of time. Before MacKinnon and Landeskog need to resign, there basically isn't the same level of cap pressure as on most teams.

 

[sandybridge]

That argument about Jost is so tired. Jost never had the skating to be a top 6 forward and no matter how many seasons of NCAA hockey was ever going to change that.

Not sure what you are referring to. He was basically never given a chance beyond sporadically on the higher lines. Otherwise, if I remember correctly, they basically played him with a bunch of 4th liners.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Hey, it's really your own fault that your management never really gave Jost a chance to develop. Schmaltz may be expensive for 3C, he could easily also play 2nd line W if needed (and if Newhook is even ready next year).

Again, there are a lot of hot goalies during specific seasons or playoff runs. Very few can be relied on a high level every season and every run; some goalies like Raycroft, Binnington, Murray, Lehner, Andersen, etc. They can get hot for a while, but not realiable on a long term basis. Basically you have guys like Vasi, Price, and Rask that are basically money in the bank when comes to important runs.

So, "we should have just developed Jost better" is your reason to destroy our cap structure? Like Jost isn't still only 22 years old, making $875k per year, and currently one of our top PKing forwards?

Vasilevsky got swept and posted a 0.856 SV% in the 2018-19 playoffs, after winning the Vezina and the President's trophy on the best team in the NHL. Price has been past the 1st round 3 times in 13 years. If they are both "money in the bank", I'd rather not use that bank.

 

[Richard88]

Of course you need a decent rest of the team as well. I don't think you can pit Canadiens' rest of the roster against Aves', in any way shape or form. He did pretty well against a superior team like the Pens.

I'd rather have Grubauer in net than Price.

Price used to be elite, but his numbers the last 3 years show a sharp decline.

 

[Richard88]

Not sure what you are referring to. He was basically never given a chance beyond sporadically on the higher lines. Otherwise, if I remember correctly, they basically played him with a bunch of 4th liners.

I used to trot out that argument too, but it's not really true.

Jost was the teams 2C in the 2019 playoffs on a line with Kerfoot and Compher.

He's been played at 3C several times this season too and didn't do too well.

He is what he is at this point, which is a 4th liner with excellent defense and PK ability. And that's absolutely fine. Relative to his draft position it's disappointing, but at least the Avs have managed to develop him into a useful NHL player.

 

[sandybridge]

I'd rather have Grubauer in net than Price.

Price used to be elite, but his numbers the last 3 years show a sharp decline.

Right I didn't mean that he still is the player at his prime. Although his performance during the bubble playoffs a few months ago was still pretty impressive, so he may still have some life left.

My point was that Grub isn't in the elite company that most recent cup winners' goaltenders were, like those of the ilk of Quick, Crawford, Vasi, etc. Or you could have two very good goalies in tandem like MAF/Murray. Very seldom do you see a team with questionable goaltending go on to win the cup.

 

[sandybridge]

So, "we should have just developed Jost better" is your reason to destroy our cap structure? Like Jost isn't still only 22 years old, making $875k per year, and currently one of our top PKing forwards?

Vasilevsky got swept and posted a 0.856 SV% in the 2018-19 playoffs, after winning the Vezina and the President's trophy on the best team in the NHL. Price has been past the 1st round 3 times in 13 years. If they are both "money in the bank", I'd rather not use that bank.

Vasi had about 2 bad games, and the rest of the team (especially Kucherov's antics) played a larger role in their demise that year by a good margin.

Jost is not a viable 3C on a cup team, that's the point. He should have been, and has had more than enough time to develop.

 

[sandybridge]

I used to trot out that argument too, but it's not really true.

Jost was the teams 2C in the 2019 playoffs on a line with Kerfoot and Compher.

He's been played at 3C several times this season too and didn't do too well.

He is what he is at this point, which is a 4th liner with excellent defense and PK ability. And that's absolutely fine. Relative to his draft position it's disappointing, but at least the Avs have managed to develop him into a useful NHL player.

Maybe.

But guys like Kerfoot and Compher are not exactly legit top 6 players. My point was that he never consistently played with productive players, and really would have been better off if he had some serious time in the minors or played on a legitimate top-2 line where he can hone his skills in the pro environment. It doesn't seem that he ever got that chance.

Having a useful player (even with a small role) is good, but those type of roles can be filled by random 1M FAs every year. What the Aves are missing is a bona fide 3C.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Vasi had about 2 bad games, and the rest of the team (especially Kucherov's antics) played a larger role in their demise that year by a good margin.

Jost is not a viable 3C on a cup team, that's the point. He should have been, and has had more than enough time to develop.

Vasi allowed 15 goals on 104 shots over the 4 games, and had a SV% under 0.850 in 3 of the games. Is he "money in the bank", or is he a product of his team's level of play? Seems like you're trying to have it both ways, while refusing to give Grubauer any credit for what he's done on a lesser team.

As for Jost, I'm still not sure how you think that's justification to destroy our cap structure by going after someone like Schmaltz to be our 3C.

And, do you really want to talk about who "should" have been better than they ended up being as a Buffalo fan? Seems like that would be a topic of conversation you wouldn't want to discuss.

 

[sandybridge]

Vasi allowed 15 goals on 104 shots over the 4 games, and had a SV% under 0.850 in 3 of the games. Is he "money in the bank", or is he a product of his team's level of play? Seems like you're trying to have it both ways, while refusing to give Grubauer any credit for what he's done on a lesser team.

As for Jost, I'm still not sure how you think that's justification to destroy our cap structure by going after someone like Schmaltz to be our 3C.

And, do you really want to talk about who "should" have been better than they ended up being as a Buffalo fan? Seems like that would be a topic of conversation you wouldn't want to discuss.

Like I said, Vasi basically had 3 bad periods. He more than made up for it this past post-season. I don't see any post-season success pedigree at all for Grub. Not saying that he isn't good, just not close to Vasi material.

Not sure why you think Schmaltz "destroys" your cap structure. The Aves basically have no cap constraints until Landeskog/MacKinnon need to resign. The Sabres has screwed up plenty of prospects, not something we would hide at all. Not sure why you want to hide the fact that you screwed up Jost's development; from what should have been a sure fire middle six C (at least) to someone that barely belongs in the NHL.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Like I said, Vasi basically had 3 bad periods. He more than made up for it this past post-season. I don't see any post-season success pedigree at all for Grub. Not saying that he isn't good, just not close to Vasi material.

Not sure why you think Schmaltz "destroys" your cap structure. The Aves basically have no cap constraints until Landeskog/MacKinnon need to resign. The Sabres has screwed up plenty of prospects, not something we would hide at all. Not sure why you want to hide the fact that you screwed up Jost's development; from what should have been a sure fire middle six C (at least) to someone that barely belongs in the NHL.

Prior to last season, Vasi was a very pedestrian 15-15 with a 0.912 SV% in the playoffs. One successful run on the best team in the NHL doesn't magically change that. Grubauer, on the other hand, is 12-6 with a 0.924 SV% in the playoffs since coming to Colorado. Why couldn't he improve on his numbers over the last 2 seasons ever so slightly and match Vasi's numbers from last season, leading his team to the Cup?

You seem to be ignoring that Makar is a RFA and will likely sign a big money, 8 year contract. Then, in 2 more years, it's Mack and Byram (assuming he earns it). Which of these contracts should we not sign because we decided to waste $5.85m on a 3C? Or, since you seem convinced it works, how do we keep them all and surround them with good talent?

And, Jost is currently one of the better 10OA picks over the last 20+ years (talent at 10OA drops off significantly after Rantanen), and top 10 in career PPG among forwards from his draft class. Anyone expecting him to be a "sure fire middle six C" before his 23rd birthday needs to adjust their expectations and bring them closer to reality.

 

[Halla]

Grubauer has a .937SV% and a 1.61 GAA this season. There's no reason to empty the farm for Gibson. Fun fact, Grubauer has had at least a .915SV% every season he's played in the NHL He's underrated.

.923sv%/2.01 gaa avg now.

another fun fact, grubaeuer has never had 40 starts in a season. is that the guy you wanna bet on?

if the avs can get gibson for picks+prospects they instantly become the favorite

 

[Richard88]

Right I didn't mean that he still is the player at his prime. Although his performance during the bubble playoffs a few months ago was still pretty impressive, so he may still have some life left.

My point was that Grub isn't in the elite company that most recent cup winners' goaltenders were, like those of the ilk of Quick, Crawford, Vasi, etc. Or you could have two very good goalies in tandem like MAF/Murray. Very seldom do you see a team with questionable goaltending go on to win the cup.

Price coming off 3 months rest was always going to turn back the clock. It happened with Erik Johnson as well who played his best hockey in years.

The way the Avs are built and the system they use I don't think they necessarily need an elite goaltender to win.