Genious: Sami V hype train. Sing along here!

[Sojourn]

DaDucks is of the opinion that I hate Vatanen because he's a threat to Fowler, so no matter what I say he's going to assume I'm crapping on Sami because of some vendetta he thinks I have against him.

Edit: And speaking of misreading what I said, did you not notice, DaDucks, that I specifically said that the sample size was small? It's difficult to give a thorough analysis over so small a sample size, and I readily admit that. Not only did I acknowledge that fact, but I actually said that I want to see more of him.

I never, and I mean never use emoticons. However.....



Sums up everything perfectly.

Thank you, BTW.

 

[AngelDuck]

Huge Vatanen fan. I think he'll be a poor man's Shattenkirk/Voynov in a few years. I do understand some people's concern with his size though

 

[Vipers31]

There are the vantanists at the top.
Then you have the optimists about Sami in the middle whom believe that he has a very good upside. Then about 50 feet down you have Sojourn's opinion of him.

I don't get why you're trying to push Sojourn's opinion into a certain corner. There's literally nothing in what he wrote that says that he doesn't as well believe "he has very good upside". He explicitly said "there is a lot of potential there". That's precisely the second category you're mentioning.

He's being entirely objective in that he doesn't just believe in some kind of intangible upside, but in looking at what is there. Everybody knows the sample size is small, but it's still more sensible to look at a small sample size than to just believe. There's certainly issues with his game that Sojourn outlined, and nothing in his characterism of Vatanen's play is remotely unfair. He knows full well that it's not a high-resolution picture we're getting from those few games, and that Vatanen is still young.

You won't find any objective Ducks fans that say that he doesn't have a lot of potential. He obviously does. Is it certain that he'll live up to his potential? It never is.

 

[dino200022]

It's tough to tell right now. Next season I'm expecting him to get some 3rd pairing minutes, and a generous amount of PP minutes. Offensively speaking, I don't think I'm quite as sold on him as others. Keep in mind the sample size was small, but he just didn't wow me at even strength. For all the hype that was surrounding his offensive game, I was a little underwhelmed. I didn't feel like his addition had a drastic impact on our breakout, or our zone entry when he was on the ice, and he didn't seem particularly dangerous most of the time. His shot was the part of his game that stood out the most, and it is a wicked shot.

Defensively, his size was an issue at times, but I thought he did alright, considering the circumstances. Boudreau kept his defensive responsibility to a minimum, but he had a good stick, made good decisions, and really, the biggest criticism I have is that he was trying to play the game like he was bigger than he was. I hardly expected him to be a defensive stud, but he wasn't a liability, either. I'd call that a win, at this point.

The bottom line is that I want to see more of him. For him to stick long-term I think he needs to be more effective offensively(and by this, I mean at even strength) than he was. The talent is clearly there for him to do that, but it's a different game in the NHL. There's less room, less time, and players are bigger, stronger, and faster. It's everything that could, potentially, hurt his effectiveness. What could be the equalizer is that he's confident, he wants to excel, and he has a very high compete level.

I'm not sure if that answers your question, but there you go. There is a lot of potential there, but I don't think he's a "safe" prospect to succeed at the NHL level.

Thank you very much, summed up perfectly for my liking!

 

[Sojourn]

Thank you very much, summed up perfectly for my liking!

If you're interested in following his progress, come back next season to check up. Even if he doesn't play the full season, he certainly looks like he could get a healthy number of games. Not only that, but having had a taste of the NHL game, I think he's in a better position to train accordingly and make some adjustments, so he'll hopefully be that much more prepared coming into the next season. I expect we'll have a much better idea of what what we can expect of him, and perhaps where his realistic ceiling is.

This last season, I think he got to dip his toe into the water. Next season, it's time for a cannon ball.

 

[DaDucks*]

I don't get why you're trying to push Sojourn's opinion into a certain corner. There's literally nothing in what he wrote that says that he doesn't as well believe "he has very good upside". He explicitly said "there is a lot of potential there". That's precisely the second category you're mentioning.

He's being entirely objective in that he doesn't just believe in some kind of intangible upside, but in looking at what is there. Everybody knows the sample size is small, but it's still more sensible to look at a small sample size than to just believe. There's certainly issues with his game that Sojourn outlined, and nothing in his characterism of Vatanen's play is remotely unfair. He knows full well that it's not a high-resolution picture we're getting from those few games, and that Vatanen is still young.

You won't find any objective Ducks fans that say that he doesn't have a lot of potential. He obviously does. Is it certain that he'll live up to his potential? It never is.

This is going back further to all the GDT's with Sami in the lineup. I read every single post in every single gdt regardless of who's posting, but I tend to bend a ear closer to when Soj is talking.(out of respect like I said prior)

Out of all the prospects over the years, why is Soj hypercritical of Sami? Soj was also extremely frustrated with Eenok's (and clones) hype for Sami that he started selling Sami short EVEN BEFORE he played one game.

I don't even think Soj posted any props after Sami's two last games where he bombed it from the point and scored. There's been more than one red flag to draw me to my conclusion that Soj doesn't want Sami to outshine fowler, especially on these boards.

Soj- search your self conscience, because the writing is literally on the wall.

 

[Sojourn]

This is going back further to all the GDT's with Sami in the lineup. I read every single post in every single gdt regardless of who's posting, but I tend to bend a ear closer to when Soj is talking.(out of respect like I said prior)

Out of all the prospects over the years, why is Soj hypercritical of Sami? Soj was also extremely frustrated with Eenok's (and clones) hype for Sami that he started selling Sami short EVEN BEFORE he played one game.

I don't even think Soj posted any props after Sami's two last games where he bombed it from the point and scored. There's been more than one red flag to draw me to my conclusion that Soj doesn't want Sami to outshine fowler, especially on these boards.

Soj- search your self conscience, because the writing is literally on the wall.

Do you understand the irony of accusing me of being "hypercritical" in regards to Vatanen, while in the very same breath basically trying to break down everything I've done or said, or things I haven't said at all, but you're convinced I've thought.

 

[DaDucks*]

Ohhh no you don't. This is about you, not me. Lol

 

[Sojourn]

No, DaDucks, it's about Sami Vatanen. You're the one who is trying to make it about me. Maybe you should go back and read what I wrote about him, and stop trying to put words into my mouth because you think I had some other agenda, or I was trying to put Sami down.

 

[DaDucks*]

I didn't slander you Soj- I've brought up multiple examples of you leaning against Sami in negative light. I don't need to go back and read your posts, that's only half of it anyways. It's also your underling attitude towards him and his close fans. His 8 games were a success and you had neutral duck fans calling to see him in the playoffs and you were right there in the way of telling them why it would be a bad idea. (Another example)

Seriously, out of all the prospects, your all over him. I know this is uncharted territory for you having a poster pin both of your shoulders to the mat,but all signs are pointing that way. your defense is now "I didn't say that?" C'mon man.

"It's about Sami" lol.. Your a real beauty

 

[snarktacular]

The boards are here to discuss hockey, not to call out or belittle any posters. Doing so falls under the site rules "Flaming." Consider this a warning.

 

[Hagged]

...you were right there in the way of telling them why it would be a bad idea.

I was one of the "eenok's" in that I like Vatanen's game to a point where I was bying the streams from AHL Live during the AHL season. We were talking endlessly with Sojourn about wether or not it would be good for the Ducks to bring Vatanen in. Well, I saw it with my own eyes that when Fowler was in the line-up, it was better to let Vatanen play in the AHL. Or even better, shine in the AHL. There could have been a chance that Vatanen would have gotten his game going, but there was a chance that had he not gotten his game going, he would have been a liability for the team and more importantly it wouldn't have been good for his self confidence, and his game just doesn't work without him feeling "it".

Now he has a chance of taking a normal summer routine, get the normal NHL off season with the Ducks, the training camps, the games, and having the opportunity to learn the system the Ducks play without the pressure of an NHL game. He will be in a much better position to succeed next season.

 

[Vipers31]

I know this is uncharted territory for you having a poster pin both of your shoulders to the mat,but all signs are pointing that way. your defense is now "I didn't say that?" C'mon man.

I don't think you're looking at things objectively. His constructive criticism of Vatanen's play is not just fair, it also stands entirely without material dissents. Nothing about what he's saying about Vatanen is wrong. His current play hasn't been outstanding enough to put him the incredibly empty "can't miss" category of prospects. He hasn't been entirely overwhelmed defensively (as Sojourn positively pointed out), but he hasn't had a remarkable influence on transition, either. It's just mere reality as of now, and that's why nobody - you included - doesn't say anything against it.

The only difference seems to be in the "where do we go from here"... With some firmly in the euphoric category, and Sojoun amongst many others in the "let's wait and see" camp, which is the far more reasonable at this point in time given the limited impressions at the level. I don't understand the whole issue, really. Saying Vatanen has plenty of upside but he's entirely unshockingly not without issues (we knew that long before this year...) and we'll need more time and more than 8 games to really tell where he's likely going to go seems just so completely hard to disagree with, and disagreeing with it to such a high degree is tough to follow.

 

[Sojourn]

This has gone on long enough. snarktacular has already posted a warning about this matter. The topic of conversation is Sami Vatanen, not an individual poster.

 

[Ducks DVM]

I'm on the fence about him. IF he's sheltered on the third pairing and can figure out that he just doesn't have the frame to be physical (I admire the effort to try though) I think he can put up offensive numbers without being the absolute joke on defense that Schultz was/is to put himself in the Calder discussion. I can also see him not figuring out the speed of the game and still being a defensive liability though. Time will tell. I think figuring out who the right partner is for him will be key. It should be fun to watch, if nothing else.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

I didn't slander you Soj- I've brought up multiple examples of you leaning against Sami in negative light.

Ummm... I'm lost with this statement. Negative criticism usually is supported with negative examples.

In the WJC's, Vatanen was wowzers! But some of us didn't know how he can handle the smaller ice and bigger opponents. He was simply abused in his own end in the NHL level, but showed flashes to having the eye to push the puck for a quick transition. Offensively, he seemed tenative. Eh...

After seeing Sami in the NHL, the glamour has worn, but he did have a successful AHL season. What I'm wondering about was why didn't Lindholm have a cup of joe in the NHL last season? We, us fans, must be way off in talent evaluating to think both Lindholm and Vatanen were that talented enough to be a mainstay at the NHL level. I got to temper my expectations because they're still young defensemen and defensemen do take time to develop.

 

[Sojourn]

I suspect the concussion ended any chance Lindholm was going to have last season.

 

[Vinegar Strokes]

Ummm... I'm lost with this statement. Negative criticism usually is supported with negative examples.

In the WJC's, Vatanen was wowzers! But some of us didn't know how he can handle the smaller ice and bigger opponents. He was simply abused in his own end in the NHL level, but showed flashes to having the eye to push the puck for a quick transition. Offensively, he seemed tenative. Eh...

After seeing Sami in the NHL, the glamour has worn, but he did have a successful AHL season. What I'm wondering about was why didn't Lindholm have a cup of joe in the NHL last season? We, us fans, must be way off in talent evaluating to think both Lindholm and Vatanen were that talented enough to be a mainstay at the NHL level. I got to temper my expectations because they're still young defensemen and defensemen do take time to develop.

The bolded is simply incorrect. Vatanen was not a defensive stalwart during his cup of coffee in the NHL (what rookie Dmen is), but he wasn't as bad as some people are making him out to be.

He got outmuscled (understatement) by Joe freaking Thornton, now people throw out hyperbole left and right to vilify his defensive game. I don't think any of us expect him to EVER be the go to guy to stop the Joe Thorntons of the league.

For the most part, he looked decent defensively in his first taste of the NHL. Especially his second stint. He definitely made mistakes, but he certainly wasn't atrocious defensively. He already had a high end transition game that allowed him to skate the puck out of danger, he just needs to be more confident in that ability.

All in all, Vatanen is never going to be that stud defensive defenseman you throw out against the top end players from the other team, especially if they have size. However, his defensive game is not as bad as you described. You are right that he needs to play to his strengths and not try to prove he can be physical against guys that have 50lbs and 7 inches on him, but that will come with experience. He also needs to be better at recognizing when and when not to pinch, but again, that will come with time.

 

[Finnpin]

 

[Ducks DVM]

The bolded is simply incorrect. Vatanen was not a defensive stalwart during his cup of coffee in the NHL (what rookie Dmen is), but he wasn't as bad as some people are making him out to be.

He got outmuscled (understatement) by Joe freaking Thornton, now people throw out hyperbole left and right to vilify his defensive game. I don't think any of us expect him to EVER be the go to guy to stop the Joe Thorntons of the league.

For the most part, he looked decent defensively in his first taste of the NHL. Especially his second stint. He definitely made mistakes, but he certainly wasn't atrocious defensively. He already had a high end transition game that allowed him to skate the puck out of danger, he just needs to be more confident in that ability.

All in all, Vatanen is never going to be that stud defensive defenseman you throw out against the top end players from the other team, especially if they have size. However, his defensive game is not as bad as you described. You are right that he needs to play to his strengths and not try to prove he can be physical against guys that have 50lbs and 7 inches on him, but that will come with experience. He also needs to be better at recognizing when and when not to pinch, but again, that will come with time.

He also was undressed (and literally fell on his ass) by a 3rd line journeyman in his first call up. Keep in mind he had sheltered minutes against some of the worst teams in the conference on that second call up as well. I'm cautiously optimistic but he hasn't proved anything as of yet.

 

[Vinegar Strokes]

He also was undressed (and literally fell on his ass) by a 3rd line journeyman in his first call up. Keep in mind he had sheltered minutes against some of the worst teams in the conference on that second call up as well. I'm cautiously optimistic but he hasn't proved anything as of yet.

Oh I'm not denying any of his bad plays, he certainly made mistakes and was beaten on plays, especially in his first stint. However, his defensive game is being overly torn apart based on a few plays where he got smoked 1 on 1. Hell, Pronger got beat badly 1 on 1 quite a few times a year.

If people expected him to come in and be lights out defensively, then I can understand some disappointment, but as someone who expected him to play sheltered minutes and show flashes of being an offensive dynamo, while showing some defensive skills and awareness, I saw exactly what I was hoping for.

 

[Sojourn]

Oh I'm not denying any of his bad plays, he certainly made mistakes and was beaten on plays, especially in his first stint. However, his defensive game is being overly torn apart based on a few plays where he got smoked 1 on 1. Hell, Pronger got beat badly 1 on 1 quite a few times a year.

If people expected him to come in and be lights out defensively, then I can understand some disappointment, but as someone who expected him to play sheltered minutes and show flashes of being an offensive dynamo, while showing some defensive skills and awareness, I saw exactly what I was hoping for.

I agree with you, that his defensive game isn't as bad as some are making it out to be. At the same time, I don't think his offensive game was as impressive as some are suggesting. Realistically, I think he fell somewhere in the middle. Offensively, he wasn't as good as some are suggesting, and defensively he wasn't as bad. There's a lot of exaggeration on both sides. The 8 game sample size doesn't help, either, because every good thing he did, or every bad thing he did, seems magnified.

As for the Pronger example, I'm not too keen on that comparison. I know you weren't comparing them directly, but Pronger more than made up for those mistakes over the course of a season. At this point, it's just too early to say where Vatanen's risk vs. reward ratio falls, especially considering the sheltered nature of his ice time. Like DVM said, he hasn't proven anything yet. How does he do with more minutes? How does he do with tougher minutes, against tougher teams? He had a fairly easy 8 games, all things considered. It really isn't going to get easier, and that's where Sami has to prove himself. I think Sami will be just fine, but a little context is important.

 

[Selanne138]

He also was undressed (and literally fell on his ass) by a 3rd line journeyman in his first call up. Keep in mind he had sheltered minutes against some of the worst teams in the conference on that second call up as well. I'm cautiously optimistic but he hasn't proved anything as of yet.

While I agree with what you said, can we ever really expect him to not have some sort of sheltered minutes? Hes never going to be a guy you throw out there against a top line, especially if its a big top line. Can you imagine him against the RPG cycle game (when it acually worked)?.

Thats why Ill never fully drink the Vatanen Kool Aid. I think he can be really successful for us in the right role, and we saw that in the second call up, at both ends. But hes always going to need to be sheltered somewhat.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

While I agree with what you said, can we ever really expect him to not have some sort of sheltered minutes? Hes never going to be a guy you throw out there against a top line, especially if its a big top line. Can you imagine him against the RPG cycle game (when it acually worked)?.

Thats why Ill never fully drink the Vatanen Kool Aid. I think he can be really successful for us in the right role, and we saw that in the second call up, at both ends. But hes always going to need to be sheltered somewhat.

I believe you have hit on the key to the puzzle that is Sami. He will likely have enough offense to be a PP QB. But it's his D that will determine whether he is a bottom pairing PP specialist who's ice team only increases in the 3rd period when his team is losing or if he can keep from being a potential liability each shift and be a solid 2nd pairing guy. His stature is what concerns me most about his ability to be a solid 2 way D in the NHL.

 

[mattihp]

His stature is what concerns me most about his ability to be a solid 2 way D in the NHL.

Because we all know that Kimmo Timonen who shot down tiny, physically weak fringe forward Alex Ovechkin some years ago in the playoffs (where things rarely get physical) is a huge physical monster. Isn't he like 6-5 or something?



If anything will keep this student of the game from being effective defensively it is his centre of gravity. He should work on getting it to be much lower so that he can actually get in some good hits other than hip checks.