Genious: Sami V hype train. Sing along here!

[Ducks DVM]

I think Holland is a poor comparison, because the issue with him isn't that he can't play in the defensive zone, it was that he wasn't trying to play in the defensive zone. I think a player who is trying, and progressing, will get a lot more chances. Vatanen needs to learn what he can actually get away with in the NHL, that means he needs NHL minutes. He seems smart enough to find a way around his limitations, and effort doesn't appear to be his issue in any way.

I think player development was probably hurt by the team doing as well as they did last year. Past a certain point, you don't want to mess up team chemistry trying new parts, then you want to reward the guys that got you there in the playoffs. Maroon and Vatanen both looked pretty good in their call-ups at the end of the year, I think that any players thinking they are entitled to a spot based on last season will be in for a rude awakening this season.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

I find it interesting that everyone here is such an expert on defense. His defense wasn't nearly as bad as people here want to make it out to be.

So what if we have 4 guys that also need sheltered minutes who are better at D? What if they aren't better at offense? Having a team full of #4-5's that cant move the puck to save their life isnt getting us anywhere.

His position is called defense. He plays a position that is the last line of defense in front of the goaltender. As Sojourn has pointed out, a defenseman has to produce some minimum level of defense to stick in the NHL unless he is a huge offensive machine.

We can debate how good his defense is when the season starts and there is something to see. But if you think his defense from last year is adequate because you expect him to score enough for his defense not to matter then we can just agree to disagree.

 

[2faded]

You're not looking at the big picture here(and yes, offense was a very poor choice of words):

If Vatanen can't carry his weight defensively(and, let me be clear, this is hypothetical right now), how many opportunities do you think he's going to get to move the puck out of the D zone? If you were Boudreau, would you give him defensive starts, if you were worried about his defensive game? On the PP? Absolutely. In the offensive zone? You bet. Neutral zone? Probably. But in the defensive zone? For a player who, in this discussion, isn't good enough defensively? No, that's exactly the situation you want to keep him out of, because moving the puck out of the D zone requires that you have the puck to begin with.

Edit: Furthermore, and again this is hypothetical, we know that Lindholm can move the puck. If he just does a better job defensively, why wouldn't Anaheim use him instead? I mean, if we're going with an unproven player, he has as much upside as anyone.

Absolutely if that were the case i would go with Lindholm instead. I agreed that I shouldnt have said offense, I am just really stressing puck movement from the back end.

Re: Vatanen. If he isn't going to get hardly any defensive starts, then why the argument for not making the team because he isn't solid defensively? He would only have to play defense on a turnover. In that case...

Here's two situations:

Other team dumps the puck in.

Current D, can't beat anyone to the puck, but is solid enough defensively to pin the guy to the boards. Not gain possesion, but the D keeps their offense to the outside for 30-45 seconds until finally they chip the puck off the boards back to the other team and they change. Yet, they dont give up any scoring chances.

Situation two: Say Vatanen is not able to carry his weight defensively when it comes to the type of physical play mentioned above. But, he is able to use his skating to beat people to their dump ins, turn around and get the puck to the forwards in a matter of seconds.

Which scenario is better defensively for the team? I realize I painted two scenarios that are favoring an answer to say Vatanens scenario is better.

But, scenario one is very very likely to happen many times next season. Scenario two, is kind of a best case scenario for Vatanen.

All I'm trying to point out, is that he doesn't need to pin people to the boards all the time and strip pucks to make enough a positive impact defensively, combined with an impact offensively, to stay with the team. I AM looking at the big picture. I'm weighing everything to come to my conclusion. Imo, his offense will prob make up for a lack of defense to make the team better.

Like I said, if his offense isnt there, he wont stick.

 

[Ducks Nation*]

Sami wasn't even that bad defensively last year when i saw him play and I am not anywhere close to a fanboy of his. He was solid.

 

[AngelDuck]

Lol...soj and Eddie shack arguing against Vatanen?

Easy prediction before I even opened the thread...

 

[Sojourn]

Lol...soj and Eddie shack arguing against Vatanen?

Easy prediction before I even opened the thread...

Irony, coming from someone who was so anti-Bobby, and would love to see Hiller and Sbisa moved. At least I'm willing to defend my opinion.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Just having an adult conversation with those qualified to participate.

 

[AngelDuck]

Irony, coming from someone who was so anti-Bobby, and would love to see Hiller and Sbisa moved. At least I'm willing to defend my opinion.

Except for the fact that as usual, you don't really have an opinion. You're on the fence about it just like you are with everything, yet you still get in to ridiculously long debates without picking a side.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

Except for the fact that as usual, you don't really have an opinion. You're on the fence about it just like you are with everything, yet you still get in to ridiculously long debates without picking a side.

But there doesn't have to be a side here. It's pretty trivial to be able to look at Sami and know that if he isn't good enough to be an NHL player, it'll be because of his defense.

People are assessing that and assigning different levels of probability as to whether or not his defense will hold up in light of what he brings. Some think it's a cinch that he'll make it either because his offense will cover (the Ozo theory), or that he'll adapt to his size (the Enstrom theory). Others are concerned because he hasn't shown enough in all situations to make that assessment. His size is a serious risk: no one should deny that.

I don't know how the **** it got to be this one team/ other team dynamic with this prospect in particular but it's really annoying. Damn eenok to hell forever, and everyone who bought in.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

And once again AD proves he cannot hold an adult conversation. I do have an opinion, you just don't like it because it has reasoning behind it, something lacking in most of your rants. The fact you still don't know my POV on this proves just how ignorant you are when it comes to paying attention. The fact you accused me of "arguing against Vatanen" shows your lack of attention to what is actually said.

I want Sami to succeed as much as anybody. But he needs to prove he can (like any other prospect) before I declare him an anchor on our blueline let alone the future superstar as AD has previously proclaimed.

It isn't about being on one side or the other. At this point in his career it is a legitimate concern whether or not he can play NHL level defense. His coach in the A thinks it needs work. His play here last year shows it needs work, but some people don't want to hear that or even have a discussion about it. No, according to some, the rest of us are just supposed to bow down and kiss Sami's ass because we are told to do so. Don't question him like a normal prospect, he gets a free pass because AD has assured us he will be a superstar. Proving exactly why this thread is appropriately titled.

I have detailed why I have concerns about Sami's defense in previous posts so I won't repeat them here. Agree or not, they are valid and worthy of discussion if one chooses. This forum is for people to discuss sometimes different POVs. I offer reasoning behind most of my opinions. Anybody who doesn't like them is free to challenge them. But going on wild rants each game day because in hindsight, somebody thinks they know better than the owner, coach or GM is nothing more than childish behavior and a waste of bandwidth.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Vatanen belongs on the team, first of all our pointmen on the PP relative to the entire league are below average. secondly, in his second stint he did look alot better. If you want to win in the NHL today you better have skill on your blueline, he needs to be in the lineup and he should have been playing against detroit instead of Souray, we all could see that

 

[Hagged]

we all could see that

How can we see that someone should have been on the line up? Unless a crystall ball is included? Maybe Vatanen already was rushed and had too much icetime in the NHL, it definitely would have helped him in NHL to get a full off season with training camps and pre-season games.

And to the discussion above, where exactly lies the problem in checking at the training camps whether Vatanen is ready and to which role before trying him in the NHL in that role he deserved? If he shows he isn't yet ready, what does it show? That he is a bust or that he isn't yet ready? Does every undersized defenseman have to crack the NHL roster at 21-22 year old? Where is the patience for a promising project?

 

[KHLJokers*]

Is KHL option? There he could be star and return Ducks after 1-2 years and get more confident with his game

 

[Ducks DVM]

The risk of him going to the KHL after his ELC is up is almost certainly why they want to see him play in the NHL this year, especially with a Finnish team in the KHL now. If he goes, the Ducks retain his rights, but there's no guarantee he ever comes back.

 

[Finnpin]

Actually KHL style would suit better for Vatanen. He would make good numbers there, points and salary wise.

 

[Hagged]

The risk of him going to the KHL after his ELC is up is almost certainly why they want to see him play in the NHL this year, especially with a Finnish team in the KHL now. If he goes, the Ducks retain his rights, but there's no guarantee he ever comes back.

I hadn't really thought of that. He was the 2nd OA pick in KHL draft 2010. He was drafted by Metallurg Novokuznesk, luckily for Anaheim Novokuznesk is one of the poorer KHL teams, the estimates are around 3 million per year on salaries (source KHL player salaries 2012/13 ), so Vatanen would definitely get lower than 200k if he was to play for Novokuznesk. But it's true that his AHL salary is propably even less than that amount and he would be getting that in FEL also, so him playing for more than two seasons in AHL is not that propable even that NHL has been his dream and he grew as an Anaheim fan.

 

[Ducks DVM]

I hadn't really thought of that. He was the 2nd OA pick in KHL draft 2010. He was drafted by Metallurg Novokuznesk, luckily for Anaheim Novokuznesk is one of the poorer KHL teams, the estimates are around 30 million per year on salaries, so Vatanen would definitely get lower than 2 million if he was to play for Novokuznesk. But it's true that his AHL salary is propably more like one tenth of that amount, so him playing for more than two seasons in AHL is not that propable even that NHL has been his dream and he grew as an Anaheim fan.

All he has to do is tell Metallurg that he will only play for Jokerit (or any other better off team), they trade his rights, and there's his money.

I'm certainly not saying he's threatened or intends any such thing, but it's a legitimate concern.

 

[Finnpin]

I hadn't really thought of that. He was the 2nd OA pick in KHL draft 2010. He was drafted by Metallurg Novokuznesk, luckily for Anaheim Novokuznesk is one of the poorer KHL teams, the estimates are around 30 million per year on salaries, so Vatanen would definitely get lower than 2 million if he was to play for Novokuznesk. But it's true that his AHL salary is propably more like one tenth of that amount, so him playing for more than two seasons in AHL is not that propable even that NHL has been his dream and he grew as an Anaheim fan.

This line doesn't make any sense. With 30 million player budget they would be one of the richest. So those numbers can't be true and if some top team wants Vatanen, they'll get him. Sorry OT.

 

[Hagged]

This line doesn't make any sense. With 30 million player budget they would be one of the richest.

Lol, now, I made a bit of a mistake there. Their budget for 2012-13 was actually 3 million according to vorky in "khl player salaries 2012/13" thread. Between one third and quarter of it is paid to one player only. So Vatanen would most propably get paid less than that my estimate being 200k-350k. Now, that compared to his AHL salary isn't even high, so there is zero reason for Vatanen to move to KHL. He would be getting the same money in FEL and his AHL salary is propably around the same.

 

[KHLJokers*]

He would be getting the same money in FEL and his AHL salary is propably around the same.

No way he is coming back FEL. Its NHL and if that is not working then its KHL,,,, His hometeam (JYP) cant pay him money,,, maybe he would get new tractor.

 

[agent082]

It seems, he has been pretty good this season. +5 last game. Maybe little more production next games. Perhaps 45 points season because he plays 1st PP.

 

[Ducksforcup]

Bryan Allen and Sami Vatanen seem to complement each-other perfectly. May be the Duck's most consistently solid D pairing this season (so far).

 

[Boxscore]

You should bump Genious: Sami V hype train. Sing along here! -thread instead. Vatanen now keerole.

Ok. Bump.

 

[alcolol]

Bryan Allen and Sami Vatanen seem to complement each-other perfectly. May be the Duck's most consistently solid D pairing this season (so far).

Isn't it interesting looking back on a statement like this? Stoner is a more serviceable Allen, hence why it is not surprising how Stoner and Vatanen complement one another.

 

[Paul4587]

We probably don't need two Vatanen threads so I'm gonna lock this one.