GDT: GDT #33 New York Islanders @ Carolina Hurricanes | December 23rd | 7:30 PM | F/5-4 W

[Rehabguy]

Wut? Pretty sure I addressed every "factual" point you made.

Win the cup? Huh? I don't even know what you're babbling about now.

He's not babbling he's demonstrating knowledge of the game. Other's here are talking like cavemen.

 

[Nizami Ganjavi]

Uh huh . . .

"Until he won the Cup in his NINETEENTH year of coaching, he NEVER made it past the 2nd round (and that took him TWELVE years to MAKE the 2nd round) and missed the playoffs 8 times."

Which one of those facts did you address?

In a previous thread: GDT: - GDT #31 New York Islanders vs Edmonton Oilers | December 19th | 7:30 PM | F/3-1 W

He's not babbling he's demonstrating knowledge of the game. Other's here are talking like cavemen.

There are plenty of posters here that have demonstrated knowledge of the game. Unfortunately, what I read from you and your friend does not qualify.

 

[Rehabguy]

Saying that Trotz and his system had run it's course (and the team needed a new voice) is one thing. But to suggest that the team underachieved under Trotz is the height of stupidity.

Honest question - during the two playoff runs and semifinal appearances, did ANYONE think "Man, I wish we had a different coach?" I mean that is crazy.

As far as Lambert's system goes, don't you think it's too early to tell? I'm optimistic and happy with the way things are going but find it very bizarre to come to a "thank go Trotz is gone" conclusion based on his 1 1/2 seasons as HC...

Jesus man. No one said the team underachieved under Trotz. In fact they did everything he asked them to do but it took them only so far. But the facts speak for themselves. No finals appearances under Trotz and a one dimensional "play not to lose" mentality. So we had a good PK. So what? The team only played defense. We were consistently the lowest scoring team in the league with the one of the worse power plays. Hanging on to dear life to win games and never able to produce a goal when it mattered the most. You can't win the Cup with that lopsided approach.

I watched this franchise win 19 consecutive playoff series in a row and 4 Cups. You think I would be satisfied with this shit?

 

[Nizami Ganjavi]

Jesus man. No one said the team underachieved under Trotz. In fact they did everything he asked them to do but it took them only so far. But the facts speak for themselves. No finals appearances under Trotz and a one dimensional "play not to lose" mentality. So we had a good PK. So what? The team only played defense. We were consistently the lowest scoring team in the league with the one of the worse power plays. Hanging on to dear life to win games and never able to produce a goal when it mattered the most. You can't win the Cup with that lopsided approach.

Sounds to me that is exactly what you are saying.

Do you think we would've won the cup in those two semi-finals years with a different coach?

 

[Rehabguy]

Sounds to me that is exactly what you are saying.

Do you think we would've won the cup in those two semi-finals years with a different coach?

No what I am saying is the team tried and achieved the best they can under his system and they were reasonably successful.

However, making it to two semi-finals in row is a punk accomplishment. The Islanders need to at least make it past the semi-finals and then we will talk. Your standards are too low if you think losing twice to the same team in the semi-finals is an accomplishment. You do understand that the idea is to win the Cup don't you?

He lost both times to the same team and with no answers for the following seasons so he got fired.

 

[BelovedIsles]

Trotz had to play conservatively. Facing a far superior team (talent wise), that is also well coached w/ a strong work ethic, it’s the only way they kept it competitive. If they opened things up, trading chances with the talent Tampa had, they would’ve lost in 5.

 

[Rehabguy]

Trotz had to play conservatively. Facing a far superior team (talent wise), that is also well coached w/ a strong work ethic, it’s the only way they kept it competitive. If they opened things up, trading chances with the talent Tampa had, they would’ve lost in 5.

He played the same conservative boring game whichever team we faced throughout the regular season so unless you thought the Isles were the worst team in the league talent wise this logic doesn't really hold up. Lets face it, it was the only game he knew regardless of opponent and if that game plan was flawed against certain opponents the Isles would lose- and they did.

 

[BelovedIsles]

He was maximizing the talent he had. He also tends to be a D-first coach. Offense can win games, D wins championships. I want my team to first play strong D, scoring is secondary, and will follow.

If he opened things up, this team would not have had the regular and postseason success it did.

 

[leeroggy]

He was maximizing the talent he had. He also tends to be a D-first coach. Offense can win games, D wins championships. I want my team to first play strong D, scoring is secondary, and will follow.

If he opened things up, this team would not have had the regular and postseason success it did.

Again, go back to the facts and not the perception
2019-20 and 2020-21 are the two ECF seasons
In the first regular season, we had a -1 goal differential. That's what posters here call out about now, but that year was fortunate to be 35-23-10
The next year was the Bubble and who can really judge that? But to use the norm it was +27 differential and 32-17-7.
That's not consistent with our perceptions.
We're 3rd in the conference and that's very similar to the BT years.
Did Trotz ever have an injury list like this year?

 

[BelovedIsles]

The fact is, given the personnel, this team wasn’t built to open things up and get into track meets on a nightly basis.

 

[mm11]

Yep.

By the way, until the Goring trade, there was a similar complaint about how we tried to be too conservative under Arbour. Losses to more skilled Canadian teams and the two horror shows against the Leafs and the Rangers gave the team a reputation for choking.

The team's OT record from that point on was stellar, and the team finally started to play to win, instead of playing not to lose. It's part of the team lore that when Goring showed up, he was instrumental in communicating to the team how good they were and how respected they were around the league, even if they had self-doubts from the previous 2 upsets to Toronto and NY.

Playing to win is far more important than playing not to lose, and there's a whole industry of sports psychology to infuse that into a professional athlete.

Man I'm ready to compete for the cup now! All jokes aside, very true indeed. Remember Phil at winged foot? He swung not to win on 18 and blew the drive and choked his first major. Learned a bunch after that

 

[Osakahaus]

We gave Trotz's system 4 years to work and while it did get this team farther in the playoffs than systems past it ultimately doomed to fail against the better opponents and this happens to the way you beat pushers- with skill. Cooper and Brind'Amour understood this. I'm not diminishing Trotz accomplishments but I am propping up Lambert's system over his simply because as you have seen it works. I am more confident in the way the Islanders are playing the game now then when they were playing the game under Trotz. Too predictable with everything telegraphed. The team is in transition right now but in the right direction. The D needs a little work. Personally I think they need to get more physical. Leeroggy's 100% correct. Trotz system lost more important games than won them. Pushers always get to the big dance but they are always beaten.

Trotz can never find a way to beat a team like Tampa or Carolina, because they're simply put too quick against the trotz system. If I had a dollar every time Kucherov, Aho, Point, Noesen, and Cirelli burned the islanders, i'd be rich. Those guys FEASTED against the islanders turtle, not only for goalscoring, but when they came to forcing penalties and mistakes. They loved it. Its why I always hated Carolina. Lambert, to much of his chagrin, has actually improved against Carolina in a year, going from a dreadful 2-7-0 record, to being 2-0-1 in three meetings. He has found their flaws, and its getting easier against those teams. I do think his real test does come against Tampa still. Can he outcoach Cooper? We've seen him be able to beat a lot of tougher teams last season (Swept the season series vs Vegas btw), so I don't think Lane is a completely clueless idiot. Problem is that we underperform way too many times to weaker competition (ffs one of our regulation losses is to the Canadiens)

What also pains me is how Trotz never used speed. He HATED speed, especially with guys like Beau. The isles adding in guys like Fasching, Engvall, Gauthier and even Horvat give them speed. Hell, even Mike Reilly got some nice wheels. Its why the isles "look" so much better on offense. It isn't just the Barzal and a bunch of lunchpail guys: its Barzal, Horvat, Nelson, and a rag tag team of defensemen ready to pinch in. That's what makes Lambert's game different from trotz.

 

[Osakahaus]

1000% agree. I think under Lambert, the mentality of this team is slowly changing.

I just wonder if its a "next man up" mentality, because this season feels like that. My previous response is a good example of where I see this team: they look better than they did under Trotz on offense, but back to the Weight style where you kinda need to outscore your problems. Will it balance itself out? Yeah. But will it mean the offense stays? Lets hope.

 

[Osakahaus]

Trotz had to play conservatively. Facing a far superior team (talent wise), that is also well coached w/ a strong work ethic, it’s the only way they kept it competitive. If they opened things up, trading chances with the talent Tampa had, they would’ve lost in 5.

If the isles EVER tried to play like tampa did, then bye. They would've been ripped a new asshole fifteen times over. And pardon my language but its the truth

 

[Rehabguy]

He was maximizing the talent he had. He also tends to be a D-first coach. Offense can win games, D wins championships. I want my team to first play strong D, scoring is secondary, and will follow.

If he opened things up, this team would not have had the regular and postseason success it did.

This is one of the biggest lies Islander fans have simply accepted but never questioned. You have to understand, before the uber talented Caps, Trotz had a long history of producing via his system of play low scoring teams and because they were low scoring fans just assumed the team was not talented.

It's all just big mirage and Trotz developed that "pusher mentality" with the Nashville Predators of "playing not to lose" and this was considered "the Predator Way". The Predators were frequent playoff participants but were notorious for being chokers and never getting past the second round. The games were often low scoring affairs with the team relying on Rinne a world class goaltender to bail them out. Those teams had the same issues in roster development that the Islanders had under Trotz. Older players were preferred over younger players and he chose to keep offensively minded forwards off the roster while containing (like Barzal) the talented offensemen on the team. The way the Predators played was a mirror image of the Islanders under Trotz. Though they often made it into the playoffs as "pushers" tend to do, they ultimately failed against teams with a more balanced system that had more offensive plans in place.

Here is an article that explains the reasons behind why the Predators chose not to extend Trotz contract. The article ironically used the words "new voice" as well back in 2014 to describe the need to move on. You could have transposed the word "Predators" with "Islanders" in this article and it would appear like we were talking about the same teams under Trotz. Let me make it very clear- teams under Barry Trotz had a hard time scoring because of Trotz, not because of a lack of talent and while I agree a "defense first" mentality tends to win Championships, Trotz tended to preach a more appropriately described, "defense only" mentality that hurt those teams in the end success with Caps notwithstanding.

Notice how the Predators wanted a coach who emphasized developing a more offensively minded system and more offensively minded forwards. As the article reads, "How much of this inability to develop scorers has to do with the GM who drafted them, and how much does it have to do with the coach who developed them? Perhaps both sides should shoulder part of the blame." Sound familiar?

Also the article reads, "What this “new direction” means for the Predators, though, is that they want a coach who will develop his players and his systems differently. They want a guy who will develop scorers and try and find greater success through new avenues. Predators fans were happy with the scrappy nature of their team under Trotz, but he wasn't able to take them to the next level up and the city seems ready for change." Again- sound familiar?- and this article goes all the way back to 2014.
Barry Trotz is out (Preds)


Here an article describes the pusher mentality Trotz emphasized in 2011 with the Predators and scoring just enough goals just to win. Again the way the players described their game it sounded eerily like they played for the Islanders under Trotz. As the article reads: "In Nashville, it's dubbed the Predator Way: Work hard, scrap, defend at all costs and score just enough timely goals to win." Sound familiar?
Playing not to lose


Here is a pundit talking about Trotz hesitancy while coaching the Preds to utilize players with a score first mentality or who came with the attitude to outshoot their opponents. As he wrote: "It’s worth noting that head coach Barry Trotz is not without blame here. It’s maddening to see him scratch talented players with potential like Craig Smith in favor of an “emotional” Rich Clune, whose contributions have been limited to getting in fights and taking penalties, and I’ve derided Trotz’s hesitance to give more ice time to guys who are able to help the team out-shoot their opponents, even if they carry a bit of defensive risk."
The Predator Way


This was why I kept saying over every playoff round exit that Trotz system was too conservative and risk adverse and cost the team in the end. Like the Preds we needed to move on from him in a bad way.

If the isles EVER tried to play like tampa did, then bye. They would've been ripped a new asshole fifteen times over. And pardon my language but its the truth

Read the above. You fell for the Trotz trap.

 

[BelovedIsles]

This is one of the biggest lies Islander fans have simply accepted but never questioned. You have to understand, before the uber talented Caps, Trotz had a long history of producing via his system of play low scoring teams and because they were low scoring fans just assumed the team was not talented.

It's all just big mirage and Trotz developed that "pusher mentality" with the Nashville Predators of "playing not to lose" and this was considered "the Predator Way". The Predators were frequent playoff participants but were notorious for being chokers and never getting past the second round. The games were often low scoring affairs with the team relying on Rinne a world class goaltender to bail them out. Those teams had the same issues in roster development that the Islanders had under Trotz. Older players were preferred over younger players and he chose to keep offensively minded forwards off the roster while containing (like Barzal) the talented offensemen on the team. The way the Predators played was a mirror image of the Islanders under Trotz. Though they often made it into the playoffs as "pushers" tend to do, they ultimately failed against teams with a more balanced system that had more offensive plans in place.

Here is an article that explains the reasons behind why the Predators chose not to extend Trotz contract. The article ironically used the words "new voice" as well back in 2014 to describe the need to move on. You could have transposed the word "Predators" with "Islanders" in this article and it would appear like we were talking about the same teams under Trotz. Let me make it very clear- teams under Barry Trotz had a hard time scoring because of Trotz, not because of a lack of talent and while I agree a "defense first" mentality tends to win Championships, Trotz tended to preach a more appropriately described, "defense only" mentality that hurt those teams in the end success with Caps notwithstanding.

Notice how the Predators wanted a coach who emphasized developing a more offensively minded system and more offensively minded forwards. As the article reads, "How much of this inability to develop scorers has to do with the GM who drafted them, and how much does it have to do with the coach who developed them? Perhaps both sides should shoulder part of the blame." Sound familiar?

Also the article reads, "What this “new direction” means for the Predators, though, is that they want a coach who will develop his players and his systems differently. They want a guy who will develop scorers and try and find greater success through new avenues. Predators fans were happy with the scrappy nature of their team under Trotz, but he wasn't able to take them to the next level up and the city seems ready for change." Again- sound familiar?

Barry Trotz is out (Preds)

Here an article describes the pusher mentality Trotz emphasized in 2011 with the Predators and scoring just enough goals just to win. Again the way the players described their game it sounded eerily like they played for the Islanders under Trotz.

Playing not to lose

Here is a pundit talking about Trotz hesitancy while coaching the Preds to utilize players with a score first mentality or who came with the attitude to outshoot their opponents. As he wrote: "It’s worth noting that head coach Barry Trotz is not without blame here. It’s maddening to see him scratch talented players with potential like Craig Smith in favor of an “emotional” Rich Clune, whose contributions have been limited to getting in fights and taking penalties, and I’ve derided Trotz’s hesitance to give more ice time to guys who are able to help the team out-shoot their opponents, even if they carry a bit of defensive risk."

The Predator Way

This was why I kept saying over every playoff round exit that Trotz system was too conservative and risk adverse and cost the team in the end. Like the Preds we needed to move on from him in a bad way.


Read the above. You fell for the Trotz trap.

His Predator teams had mediocre talent, much like his NYI rosters.

He had his Caps attacking and playing with relentless pressure and forecheck en route to the cup. You know why? He had the tools to do so. I watched every single game, that team pressured you every inch of the ice. They could, they had skill and speed contained within systemic structure.

 

[Rehabguy]

His Predator teams had mediocre talent, much like his NYI rosters.

He had his Caps attacking and playing with relentless pressure and forecheck en route to the cup. You know why? He had the tools to do so. I watched every single game, that team pressured you every inch of the ice. They could, they had skill and speed contained within systemic structure.

Again, that's what you think, but as I've been saying under our offensive number suffered under Trotz and the offensive output of our young star players were stymied. Just look at Barzal's numbers alone and that tells you how poorly he was utilized and look at him now. Look at the team as a whole and how well they are performing offensively.

When Laviolette took the reins over from Trotz he led them through the most successful stretch in franchise history. During his tenure and before he was ultimately let go, the team had not missed the playoffs, won its first two division titles (2017-18 and 2018-19) and made its first Stanley Cup Final appearance in 2017.

The problem was not the roster but the coach if the team wanted to get to the next level just like with the Isles now.

 

[BelovedIsles]

Again, that's what you think, but as I've been saying under our offensive number suffered under Trotz and the offensive output of our young star players were stymied. Just look at Barzal's numbers alone and that tells you how poorly he was utilized and look at him now. Look at the team as a whole and how well they are performing offensively.

When Laviolette took the reins over from Trotz he led them through the most successful stretch in franchise history. During his tenure, the team has not missed the playoffs, won its first two division titles (2017-18 and 2018-19) and made its first Stanley Cup Final appearance in 2017.

The problem was not the roster but the coach if the team wanted to get to the next level just like with the Isles now.

Lambert is working with more speed and skill up front than Trotz. Barzal has Horvat riding shotgun. The system favors offense, at the expense of D. That’s pretty much what we are seeing. Injuries have played a role, but this D was porous healthy.

A balance needs to be struck.

 

[Rehabguy]

Lambert is working with more speed and skill up front than Trotz. Barzal has Horvat riding shotgun. The system favors offense, at the expense of D. That’s pretty much what we are seeing. Injuries have played a role, but this D was porous healthy.

A balance needs to be struck.

Come now! He had speed in Toews, Eberle, Leddy, Beauvillier. Players before and after Trotz’s who demonstrated offensive prowess but all suffered under Trotz’s system “keep it close” and “play not to lose” system. The system he developed with the Preds was nearly identical to the one he deployed on the Island. Create scoring chances through the forecheck not through the rush or skill, avoid odd man breaks the other way by playing a very conservative game. Focus on defense. We can’t keep making excuses why the Isles were a low scoring team under Trotz when the other team he developed had the same problems.

 

[Strummergas]

This place is becoming unbearable, but I suppose that is indeed the intent here.

 

[beach]

He played the same conservative boring game whichever team we faced throughout the regular season so unless you thought the Isles were the worst team in the league talent wise this logic doesn't really hold up. Lets face it, it was the only game he knew regardless of opponent and if that game plan was flawed against certain opponents the Isles would lose- and they did.

Of course the logic holds up. Without Trotz, that team would not even have made the playoffs in the years it did.

 

[leeroggy]

Of course the logic holds up. Without Trotz, that team would not even have made the playoffs in the years it did.

Completely unprovable. Lou could have hired other coaches too, the availability of Trotz was a gift by Leonsis. There are plenty of competent coaches that could have gotten them into the playoffs in that span.

We were a -1 in goal differential in the regular season in 2019-20. 7th place. Everyone in front of us was at least a +25 that year. 12 teams made the playoffs that year in each conference. We almost blew a 3-1 lead over Philadelphia, losing 2 OT games in Games 5/6. Game 6 was 2 OTs. That's nearly a full game of OT's in 5/6 where we couldn't score a goal.

In 2020-21, we had our best year, with a +28, but we somehow managed to lose Game 7 on a SHORT HAND GOAL. Yeesh.

In 2021-22 we finished UNDER .500 according to the snarks here who count the OT losses that way (37-35-10), or 37-45 according to the Zeekers of the world. Hardly a ringing endorsement of sainthood. We were a -6 in goal differential and finished 16 points out of the playoffs.

All this shows is what I've said many times here, you make the playoffs and take your chances on getting hot at the right time. That isn't coaching at that point, its players making plays at the right time.

My prime issue with the Trotz approach is that it was very taxing physically and mentally and it wears teams/players down. If you want to ask about getting to the ECF, here's an inconvenient fact to ponder; do we make it that far if those two years weren't shortened by Covid? 68 regular season games and 54 games in the 2 years. In the 2 full 82 game seasons, we won one playoff round and didn't make the playoffs. I don't think that is solely a coincidence.

 

[leeroggy]

This is one of the biggest lies Islander fans have simply accepted but never questioned. You have to understand, before the uber talented Caps, Trotz had a long history of producing via his system of play low scoring teams and because they were low scoring fans just assumed the team was not talented.

It's all just big mirage and Trotz developed that "pusher mentality" with the Nashville Predators of "playing not to lose" and this was considered "the Predator Way". The Predators were frequent playoff participants but were notorious for being chokers and never getting past the second round. The games were often low scoring affairs with the team relying on Rinne a world class goaltender to bail them out. Those teams had the same issues in roster development that the Islanders had under Trotz. Older players were preferred over younger players and he chose to keep offensively minded forwards off the roster while containing (like Barzal) the talented offensemen on the team. The way the Predators played was a mirror image of the Islanders under Trotz. Though they often made it into the playoffs as "pushers" tend to do, they ultimately failed against teams with a more balanced system that had more offensive plans in place.

Here is an article that explains the reasons behind why the Predators chose not to extend Trotz contract. The article ironically used the words "new voice" as well back in 2014 to describe the need to move on. You could have transposed the word "Predators" with "Islanders" in this article and it would appear like we were talking about the same teams under Trotz. Let me make it very clear- teams under Barry Trotz had a hard time scoring because of Trotz, not because of a lack of talent and while I agree a "defense first" mentality tends to win Championships, Trotz tended to preach a more appropriately described, "defense only" mentality that hurt those teams in the end success with Caps notwithstanding.

Notice how the Predators wanted a coach who emphasized developing a more offensively minded system and more offensively minded forwards. As the article reads, "How much of this inability to develop scorers has to do with the GM who drafted them, and how much does it have to do with the coach who developed them? Perhaps both sides should shoulder part of the blame." Sound familiar?

Also the article reads, "What this “new direction” means for the Predators, though, is that they want a coach who will develop his players and his systems differently. They want a guy who will develop scorers and try and find greater success through new avenues. Predators fans were happy with the scrappy nature of their team under Trotz, but he wasn't able to take them to the next level up and the city seems ready for change." Again- sound familiar?- and this article goes all the way back to 2014.

Barry Trotz is out (Preds)

Here an article describes the pusher mentality Trotz emphasized in 2011 with the Predators and scoring just enough goals just to win. Again the way the players described their game it sounded eerily like they played for the Islanders under Trotz. As the article reads: "In Nashville, it's dubbed the Predator Way: Work hard, scrap, defend at all costs and score just enough timely goals to win." Sound familiar?

Playing not to lose

Here is a pundit talking about Trotz hesitancy while coaching the Preds to utilize players with a score first mentality or who came with the attitude to outshoot their opponents. As he wrote: "It’s worth noting that head coach Barry Trotz is not without blame here. It’s maddening to see him scratch talented players with potential like Craig Smith in favor of an “emotional” Rich Clune, whose contributions have been limited to getting in fights and taking penalties, and I’ve derided Trotz’s hesitance to give more ice time to guys who are able to help the team out-shoot their opponents, even if they carry a bit of defensive risk."

The Predator Way

This was why I kept saying over every playoff round exit that Trotz system was too conservative and risk adverse and cost the team in the end. Like the Preds we needed to move on from him in a bad way.


Read the above. You fell for the Trotz trap.

Some people just can't put perception over fact. Well done!

 

[MJF]

Again, go back to the facts and not the perception
2019-20 and 2020-21 are the two ECF seasons
In the first regular season, we had a -1 goal differential. That's what posters here call out about now, but that year was fortunate to be 35-23-10
The next year was the Bubble and who can really judge that? But to use the norm it was +27 differential and 32-17-7.
That's not consistent with our perceptions.
We're 3rd in the conference and that's very similar to the BT years.
Did Trotz ever have an injury list like this year?

Yes he did. The Covid season of 2021-22 when we missed the playoffs. Lou didn't get anyone that year like a Reilly or a Bortuzzo to help steady things. The league kept forcing us to play with a decimated roster.

You and your friend have short memories, or selective ones.

 

[leeroggy]

Yes he did. The Covid season of 2021-22 when we missed the playoffs. Lou didn't get anyone that year like a Reilly or a Bortuzzo to help steady things. The league kept forcing us to play with a decimated roster.

You and your friend have short memories, or selective ones.

You honestly think Reilly and Bortuzzo types would have saved that season? Seriously?

My memory is that we were healthy in the 2nd half of the season, when we went 20-17-4, which is also a losing record according to the OT loss scorekeepers. That losing streak was games 10-20.

That's pretty selective to me to only count on the 1st quarter of the season as you did.