Player Discussion Gaudreau's Next Contract

[Darth Vladar]

Johnny for Sharangovich and Zacha. Sign a discounted Evander Kane with the remaining cap. Win Stanley Cup.

 

[Ainsy01]

So has every player, ever. This shouldn't surprise anyone or start a million and a half Johnny hockey trade proposal threads. He put up 1.02 ppg since he signed at 6.75.

I cant see a guy with his stats, coming off a team-friendly deal signing for less than 9 mill per.

8.5 would be fair, 7.5 would be a steal. Anything over 9 could look bad if the team doesn't perform.

PS: does this make anyone else feel like, super old? Feels like he signed for 6 years like, yesterday.

 

[Darth Vladar]

So has every player, ever. This shouldn't surprise anyone or start a million and a half Johnny hockey trade proposal threads. He put up 1.02 ppg since he signed at 6.75.

I cant see a guy with his stats, coming off a team-friendly deal signing for less than 9 mill per.

8.5 would be fair, 7.5 would be a steal. Anything over 9 could look bad if the team doesn't perform.

PS: does this make anyone else feel like, super old? Feels like he signed for 6 years like, yesterday.

PPG Johnny at $6.75M

2-cup Blake Coleman at $4.9M

 

[FlamerForLife]

PPG Johnny at $6.75M

2-cup Blake Coleman at $4.9M

What is the argument you're tryna make here?

 

[Darth Vladar]

What is the argument you're tryna make here?

I thought it was obvious. The point of the game is to win. It makes no sense to keep spending more money on players who don't.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Johnny for Sharangovich and Zacha. Sign a discounted Evander Kane with the remaining cap. Win Stanley Cup.

Devils say no immediately. Only way Calgary is getting assets like that is with a sign and trade.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

So has every player, ever. This shouldn't surprise anyone or start a million and a half Johnny hockey trade proposal threads. He put up 1.02 ppg since he signed at 6.75.

I cant see a guy with his stats, coming off a team-friendly deal signing for less than 9 mill per.

8.5 would be fair, 7.5 would be a steal. Anything over 9 could look bad if the team doesn't perform.

PS: does this make anyone else feel like, super old? Feels like he signed for 6 years like, yesterday.

Yeah, Calgary has gotten an 85 point player for the price of a 65 point player for the last 6 years. And that's 85 points with pretty poor offensive support vs other stars in the league.

Last go around, the Flames had all the leverage, and they took advantage of it. This is his last chance to get a payday, and this time he has all the leverage. I would expect him to repay the favor and use it

 

[Darth Vladar]

Devils say no immediately. Only way Calgary is getting assets like that is with a sign and trade.

Assets like what? Two wingers with 370 NHL games between them?

 

[HighLifeMan]

I don't buy that Johhny took a discount last time. He got paid what the market indicated his worth was at the time.

Panarin signed for 6M that summer after 77 in 80 as a rookie.
Pastrnak signed for 6 x 6.66M the summer after in which he had 70 in 75.
Forsberg signed for 6x6 that summer and was averaging 7 less points a year.

This time around Johhny's certainly not worth anywhere near 9M based on his play the past two seasons - especially on a retirement contract.

8 x 7M
7 x 7.5M
6 x 8M

Those are all fair numbers in my opinion based on the contracts recently given out. If he's playing hardball on those numbers and is looking for more that indicates to me he truly doesn't want to stick around. If that's the case Treliving really whiffed on his opportunity to move him (which really wouldn't surprise any of us).

 

[Darth Vladar]

Yeah, Calgary has gotten an 85 point player for the price of a 65 point player for the last 6 years. And that's 85 points with pretty poor offensive support vs other stars in the league.

Last go around, the Flames had all the leverage, and they took advantage of it. This is his last chance to get a payday, and this time he has all the leverage. I would expect him to repay the favor and use it

Johnny hasn't been an 85-point player since 2018-19, and has only been an 85-point player twice in his seven year career. Last year he was on pace for 71 points, and the year before he only played 70 games and had 58 points, which is a 67-point pace over an 82-game season. That one year Johnny had 99 points, the Flames had 18 players in double digits for points, their 289 goals for was second only to Tampa Bay's 325, and it's not like that team was exactly littered with stars. Even Janko had 32 points. Christ, even Mike Smith had 3 assists lmao How much more offensive support does the guy need? Sometimes I wonder what people around here base their opinions on...

 

[Darth Vladar]

I don't buy that Johhny took a discount last time. He got paid what the market indicated his worth was at the time.

Panarin signed for 6M that summer after 77 in 80 as a rookie.
Pastrnak signed for 6 x 6.66M the summer after in which he had 70 in 75.
Forsberg signed for 6x6 that summer and was averaging 7 less points a year.

This time around Johhny's certainly not worth anywhere near 9M based on his play the past two seasons - especially on a retirement contract.

8 x 7M
7 x 7.5M
6 x 8M

Those are all fair numbers in my opinion based on the contracts recently given out. If he's playing hardball on those numbers and is looking for more that indicates to me he truly doesn't want to stick around. If that's the case Treliving really whiffed on his opportunity to move him (which really wouldn't surprise any of us).

Hey, you're making too much sense, cut it out!

 

[Ainsy01]

I don't buy that Johhny took a discount last time. He got paid what the market indicated his worth was at the time.

Panarin signed for 6M that summer after 77 in 80 as a rookie.
Pastrnak signed for 6 x 6.66M the summer after in which he had 70 in 75.
Forsberg signed for 6x6 that summer and was averaging 7 less points a year.

This time around Johhny's certainly not worth anywhere near 9M based on his play the past two seasons - especially on a retirement contract.

8 x 7M
7 x 7.5M
6 x 8M

Those are all fair numbers in my opinion based on the contracts recently given out. If he's playing hardball on those numbers and is looking for more that indicates to me he truly doesn't want to stick around. If that's the case Treliving really whiffed on his opportunity to move him (which really wouldn't surprise any of us).

True, he didnt take a discount persay, but outplayed the contract, as did all the guys mentioned. Hell, look what Mackinnon is doing for 6 mill. They were also all RFA's, and are now looking to cash in. Pasta is due for 10m, Panarin just got 11.6. Johnny will get at least 8.5, here or elsewhere.

 

[Darth Vladar]

True, he didnt take a discount persay, but outplayed the contract, as did all the guys mentioned. Hell, look what Mackinnon is doing for 6 mill. They were also all RFA's, and are now looking to cash in. Pasta is due for 10m, Panarin just got 11.6. Johnny will get at least 8.5, here or elsewhere.

Look what any of them do for any mill. Put a piece of rubber in a net, and they get paid whether or not they even do it. People need to put it back into perspective before it isn't even about hockey anymore.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Assets like what? Two wingers with 370 NHL games between them?

Strange way to value assets. Zacha scored 3 more points than Mangiapane in 6 less games and Sharangovich had 2 less points in 2 less games as a rookie.

Would you trade 2 Andrew Mangiapanes for a pending UFA winger when you could just wait to sign them a few months later in free agency?

Johnny hasn't been an 85-point player since 2018-19, and has only been an 85-point player twice in his seven year career. Last year he was on pace for 71 points, and the year before he only played 70 games and had 58 points, which is a 67-point pace over an 82-game season. That one year Johnny had 99 points, the Flames had 18 players in double digits for points, their 289 goals for was only second to Tampa Bay's 325, and it's not like that team was exactly littered with stars. Even Janko had 32 points. Christ, even Mike Smith had 3 assists lmao How much more offensive support does the guy need? Sometimes I wonder what people around here base their opinions on...

Over the term of his contract, he's averaged ~85 points per 82 games. And it would have been a lot higher if he wasn't dragging around an injured Sean Monahan for half that time (especially in the last 2 years).

 

[Darth Vladar]

Strange way to value assets. Zacha scored 3 more points than Mangiapane in 6 less games and Sharangovich had 2 less points in 2 less games as a rookie.

Would you trade 2 Andrew Mangiapanes for a pending UFA winger when you could just wait to sign them a few months later in free agency?


Over the term of his contract, he's averaged ~85 points per 82 games. And it would have been a lot higher if he wasn't dragging around an injured Sean Monahan for half that time (especially in the last 2 years).

Mangi is entering his 3rd full season for us, has improved every season, has actually seen (and been a factor in) a few rounds of playoff hockey and his stock is sure to climb this year in a legit top-six role. There is no way to know what we have in Sharangovich other than the one anomalous covid-shortened season. Zacha is probably a better coparable to Mangi, but the guy is still pointless in his 5 playoff games, when the hockey actually matters. I wouldn't trade Mangi for either of them straight up. They're both soon to be RFA as well.

It's not only about how many points a player averages; you have to take into consideration the direction in which he is trending. Johnny could have sat out the entire 2019-20 season and still averaged more points than Zacha did playing both 2018-19 and 2019-20. You're entitled to your opinion as to whether Johnny carried Mony the past two years, but it's laughable to imagine raising that as a point in negotiations. Players are paid for their own performance, not anyone else's.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I don't buy that Johhny took a discount last time. He got paid what the market indicated his worth was at the time.

Panarin signed for 6M that summer after 77 in 80 as a rookie.
Pastrnak signed for 6 x 6.66M the summer after in which he had 70 in 75.
Forsberg signed for 6x6 that summer and was averaging 7 less points a year.

This time around Johhny's certainly not worth anywhere near 9M based on his play the past two seasons - especially on a retirement contract.

8 x 7M
7 x 7.5M
6 x 8M

Those are all fair numbers in my opinion based on the contracts recently given out. If he's playing hardball on those numbers and is looking for more that indicates to me he truly doesn't want to stick around. If that's the case Treliving really whiffed on his opportunity to move him (which really wouldn't surprise any of us).

Gaudreau was coming off a season where he finished 6th in league scoring with 78 points in 79 games and got 6.75M (on top of leading Team North America in scoring and being arguably their best forward at the tournament). I'm sorry but if you're a top 10 scorer in your contract year, your new contract shouldn't put you 39th on the league's highest paid list, especially when you adjust for inflation (and that was back in 2015-16, now he's 75th on that list).


Mackinnon was coming off 52p 72gp (6.3M)
Monahan 63p in 81gp (6.4M)
Forsberg 64p in 82gp (6M)
The prior year, Tarasenko signed for 7.5M after 73p in 77gp

For these deals, you're looking at ~1M per point/82 games of their contract year. Fair value for Gaudreau would have been ~7.3 - 8.0M. For context Phil Kessel was making $8M at the time, and Benn had just signed a deal for $9.5M

Panarin signed a 2 year bridge contract, and his linemate had 106 points to his 77, and he still got $6M. He also signed after Gaudreau. Pastrnak didn't sign until the following year.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Mangi is entering his 3rd full season for us, has improved every season, has actually seen a few rounds of playoff hockey and his stock is sure to climb this year in a legit top-six role. There is no way to know what we have in Sharangovich other than the one anomalous covid-shortened season. Zacha is probably a better coparable to Mangi, but the guy is still pointless in his 5 playoff games, when the hockey actually matters. I wouldn't trade Mangi for either of them straight up.

It's not only about how many points a player averages; you have to take into consideration the direction in which he is trending. Johnny could have sat out the entire 2019-20 season and still averaged more points than Zacha did playing both 2018-19 and 2019-20. You're entitled to your opinion as to whether Johnny carried Mony the past two years, but it's laughable to imagine raising that as a point in negotiations. Players are paid for their own performance, not anyone else's.

Zacha has gotten better every year as well, and was the better player last year.

Not like it matters who is better. By your logic, Mangiapane is hardly even an asset, he's only played 178 games vs Zacha's 316.

And don't even get started on Sharangovich. Dude scored 16g 30 points as a 22 year old. Mangiapane had 8g 13p at same age.

You just flat out don't know what you're talking about when it comes to these players. The devils would never trade these two for a winger on an expiring contract, just like the Flames would never trade 2 Mangi's for the same. It's frankly a ludicrous proposal.

 

[Dack]

I don't buy that Johhny took a discount last time. He got paid what the market indicated his worth was at the time.

Panarin signed for 6M that summer after 77 in 80 as a rookie.
Pastrnak signed for 6 x 6.66M the summer after in which he had 70 in 75.
Forsberg signed for 6x6 that summer and was averaging 7 less points a year.

This time around Johhny's certainly not worth anywhere near 9M based on his play the past two seasons - especially on a retirement contract.

8 x 7M
7 x 7.5M
6 x 8M

Those are all fair numbers in my opinion based on the contracts recently given out. If he's playing hardball on those numbers and is looking for more that indicates to me he truly doesn't want to stick around. If that's the case Treliving really whiffed on his opportunity to move him (which really wouldn't surprise any of us).

Panarin and Pastrnak's contracts both came the summer after Gaudreau's. Panarin in particular got a 2 year bridge that walked him to UFA which was the only way Chicago could keep him under the cap.


When Gaudreau signed his contract he was 6th in the NHL in scoring ( he had less games played than the 2 guys he was tied with). The other big name RFA's who signed that season were Mackinnon, Forsberg, Scheifele and Monahan. All but Forsberg were Centers. At the time Mackinnon's career high was 63 points which came in his rookie year, Mark Schiefele broke 60 points for the first time, and both Monahan and Forsberg had broken 60 in back to back years. None of them had ever broken 65 points if I'm not mistaken. Johnny put up 64 in his rookie season and then 78 points in his sophomore year (in 79 games).

I don't think it was a big underpayment at the time. I think he was probably worth around 7.5 on a 6 year deal at the time but it was well known he was asking for 8 and got squeezed hard because he had no leverage (no arbitration and couldn't sign an offer sheet). Hell we know this because negotiations dragged out into camp that year and Johnny finally signed because he didn't want to miss any of the season. But just a few short years later the RFA market ended completely and now players are just paid their worth (or usually more lol) Gaudreau spent his time here making 400k more a year than Monahan. While he may not have been overpaid at the time he massively outperformed his caphit over the duration of his contract and I fully expect him to try and cash in once more with a big retirement contract.


As for him sticking around I don't see why he would barring overpayment? He'd absolutely get a better offer on the open market and needs only to wait. If not the best offer he could try and sign with a contender if he wants to compete for the cup. Or maybe he wants to move back closer to his parents in which case there's quite a few east coast teams who I'm sure would find a way to clear cap if he signed with them.

 

[Iggys Dome]

I do not envy Treliving right now.

Then again, he's the one that built this team.

 

[HighLifeMan]

Panarin and Pastrnak's contracts both came the summer after Gaudreau's. Panarin in particular got a 2 year bridge that walked him to UFA which was the only way Chicago could keep him under the cap.


When Gaudreau signed his contract he was 6th in the NHL in scoring ( he had less games played than the 2 guys he was tied with). The other big name RFA's who signed that season were Mackinnon, Forsberg, Scheifele and Monahan. All but Forsberg were Centers. At the time Mackinnon's career high was 63 points which came in his rookie year, Mark Schiefele broke 60 points for the first time, and both Monahan and Forsberg had broken 60 in back to back years. None of them had ever broken 65 points if I'm not mistaken. Johnny put up 64 in his rookie season and then 78 points in his sophomore year (in 79 games).

I don't think it was a big underpayment at the time. I think he was probably worth around 7.5 on a 6 year deal at the time but it was well known he was asking for 8 and got squeezed hard because he had no leverage (no arbitration and couldn't sign an offer sheet). Hell we know this because negotiations dragged out into camp that year and Johnny finally signed because he didn't want to miss any of the season. But just a few short years later the RFA market ended completely and now players are just paid their worth (or usually more lol) Gaudreau spent his time here making 400k more a year than Monahan. While he may not have been overpaid at the time he massively outperformed his caphit over the duration of his contract and I fully expect him to try and cash in once more with a big retirement contract.


As for him sticking around I don't see why he would barring overpayment? He'd absolutely get a better offer on the open market and needs only to wait. If not the best offer he could try and sign with a contender if he wants to compete for the cup. Or maybe he wants to move back closer to his parents in which case there's quite a few east coast teams who I'm sure would find a way to clear cap if he signed with them.

As both you and Whiskey pointed out - Johhny Gaudreau was the highest paid age-comparable RFA forward signed that summer. That was the nature of the RFA landscape in the NHL at the time, and he got paid accordingly. Calgary bought just one UFA season. Each and every one of those contracts got outperformed.

 

[Sparky93]

To be completely honest, I have no desire to watch a 34 year old, $8 million Johnny.....let alone a 35 or 36 year old. Once he loses a step or things start to hurt a little more, I could see him becoming completely ineffective.

 

[Kranix]

They're better be a new contract yesterday, or trade him right now Tre, quit f'ing around. No matter how much Johnny says 'ya i'd like to sign here,' come July he's going to pull a Philly pajamas. Seriously.

Trade him for a good package Tre, before Darryl usurps you and trades him for Sean Donovan,

 

[Darth Vladar]

Zacha has gotten better every year as well, and was the better player last year.

Not like it matters who is better. By your logic, Mangiapane is hardly even an asset, he's only played 178 games vs Zacha's 316.

And don't even get started on Sharangovich. Dude scored 16g 30 points as a 22 year old. Mangiapane had 8g 13p at same age.

You just flat out don't know what you're talking about when it comes to these players. The devils would never trade these two for a winger on an expiring contract, just like the Flames would never trade 2 Mangi's for the same. It's frankly a ludicrous proposal.

The fact that Zacha's 35 pts led all Devils forwards in scoring last season would indicate to me that he played a different role in their lineup than Mangi in ours. Zacha's ATOI was only slightly more than Mangi's, but he spent more time on the PP than any other Devil besides Hughes, and was 5G-6A-11P compared to Mangi's 2G-3A-5P, despite Zacha playing six less games. That doesn't make Zacha better, simply more fortunate. The Devils have completely sucked the entire time he's been there, unless you count the one year they snuck in as 8th seed in 2017-18, and he went pointless in 5 playoff games. For what it's worth, Mangi had 7G-11P in seven games this past world's championship, helping lead Canada to gold.

As far as Sharangovich is concerned, he was still only on pace for 24 goals over the course of an 82-game season, which he has yet to play. How about we let the kid play an actual full season before we go comparing him to anybody.

The Flames took some time developing Mangi, and while this approach has seldom worked in their favour (Backlund being the rare example), Mangi is the better player for it. It just seems like your argument hinges more on opportunity rather than actual talent or value. The fact that these two wingers would be difficult to part with is less an indication of their talent or value as it is an indication of how terrible the Devils are. Just because those players might have value to them, doesn't make it intrinsic value.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

The fact that Zacha's 35 pts led all Devils forwards in scoring last season would indicate to me that he played a different role in their lineup than Mangi in ours. Zacha's ATOI was only slightly more than Mangi's, but he spent more time on the PP than any other Devil besides Hughes, and was 5G-6A-11P compared to Mangi's 2G-3A-5P, despite Zacha playing six less games. That doesn't make Zacha better, simply more fortunate. The Devils have completely sucked the entire time he's been there, unless you count the one year they snuck in as 8th seed in 2017-18, and he went pointless in 5 playoff games. For what it's worth, Mangi had 7G-11P in seven games this past world's championship, helping lead Canada to gold.

As far as Sharangovich is concerned, he was still only on pace for 24 goals over the course of an 82-game season, which he has yet to play. How about we let the kid play an actual full season before we go comparing him to anybody.

The Flames took some time developing Mangi, and while this approach has seldom worked in their favour (Backlund being the rare example), Mangi is the better player for it. It just seems like your argument hinges more on opportunity rather than actual talent or value. The fact that these two wingers would be difficult to part with is less an indication of their talent as it is an indication of how terrible the Devils are. Just because those players might have value to them, doesn't make it intrinsic value.

I like how you spend the whole first paragraph comparing Mangiapane to Zacha, but then say we can't compare Sharangovich to anybody because he hasn't played a "full season". It's almost unbelievable how blind you are to your own bias.

None of these guys have played a full season (though Zacha has played the most). Sharangovich, the youngest of the 3, has the best career points per game and is off to the best start. Full stop.

I'm done engaging you on this nonsense.

 

[Bounces R Way]

9.25 x 6 plz

Make a commitment to Johnny or blow it up. Really the only two options left.