Gardiner Thoughts

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I like Dermott but his time will come next season, Jake and Hainsey should be gone. Keep this a development year for Travis and he should be top 4 next season... just saying

sure, but you do have to balance development with trying to win. If Gardiner/Zaitsev were holding their own but I thought Dermott might have a chance to be slightly better, I'd agree with you that it would make sense to wait. But they aren't good enough to continue playing in that role, barring a massive improvement that I don't really think is likely

 

[Gary Nylund]

sure, but you do have to balance development with trying to win. If Gardiner/Zaitsev were holding their own but I thought Dermott might have a chance to be slightly better, I'd agree with you that it would make sense to wait. But they aren't good enough to continue playing in that role, barring a massive improvement that I don't really think is likely

You realize we're 6-1 right?

 

[Commander Clueless]

JVR argument all over again - "a 100pt team doesn't trade at the deadline"- how did that work out for us???
Building a cup winner isn't that black and white and nobody gives a fuzzy duck about the Presidents trophy so when it comes to Gardiner id say the same thing i said about JVR-

But can you imagine the backlash if we made it deep and lost, and had traded JVR at the deadline?


Wooo boy.

 

[Commander Clueless]

You realize we're 6-1 right?

Yeah, and I don't think we'll be making any big moves any time soon, unless the Nylander situation escalates.


That said, if I'm Dubas, I'm looking for a mid-season move involving Gardiner for a defensive defenseman, if it becomes available. I don't think we'll get someone with Jake's talent back, but I don't see a way we can afford him after this season and we need a solid, relatively cheap defenseman to replace him.

 

[Mr Hockey]

3 years into Nylanders/Matthews/Marners new deals, Rielly becomes a UFA in his prime.

 

[Gary Nylund]

But can you imagine the backlash if we made it deep and lost, and had traded JVR at the deadline?

Wooo boy.

I know right, we'd be going you should have traded JVR a year ago, we knew we had Marlies who could do a decent job in his place.

 

[Notsince67]

He is what he is - never really been a fan.
If they can re-sign for under 5.5, great. But I'd rather they move on from him and get some value back.

You can't move a veteran D on this team without signing another veteran D. The other guys need some sheltering. Hainsey is gone next year. If Gardiner is too, that leaves Rielly and Zaitsev with 3 or more years of NHL experience.

 

[Commander Clueless]

I know right, we'd be going you should have traded JVR a year ago, we knew we had Marlies who could do a decent job in his place.

I'm just saying, we were, what, 6th place in the league?

We gambled on JVR helping us in a playoff run as our "rental", and lost in the first round. In my mind, it was a good gamble to take.

More assets is always nice, but a top team trading a 30 goal scorer right before the playoffs would be...odd.

Mind you, if JVR landed us a right-handed defenseman, I would totally have understood it....somehow I don't think that was on the table, though.

 

[Commander Clueless]

You can't move a veteran D on this team without signing another veteran D. The other guys need some sheltering. Hainsey is gone next year. If Gardiner is too, that leaves Rielly and Zaitsev with 3 or more years of NHL experience.

I'd be surprised if they don't sign at least one veteran defenseman this offseason for the 6/7 position. Heck, it might be Ron Hainsey (hopefully on a cheaper deal).

 

[Notsince67]

I'd be surprised if they don't sign at least one veteran defenseman this offseason for the 6/7 position. Heck, it might be Ron Hainsey (hopefully on a cheaper deal).

I love Dermott. He will suffer on the second pair without a decent partner in the short run

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm just saying, we were, what, 6th place in the league?

We gambled on JVR helping us in a playoff run as our "rental", and lost in the first round. In my mind, it was a good gamble to take.

More assets is always nice, but a top team trading a 30 goal scorer right before the playoffs would be...odd.

Mind you, if JVR landed us a right-handed defenseman, I would totally have understood it....somehow I don't think that was on the table, though.

And I'm just saying we were first round dogs, we would have been dogs in every round after that and for that reason, I had our cup chances at about 3% or so. Without JVR, that goes down to maybe 2.9%, not even close to being a good gamble IMHO.

 

[drewjenks]

Ill start this with the disclaimer that Im not a fan of Jake Gardiner! I think he is very skilled but his bonehead plays stress me the f out.

I am really happy with the emergence of Travis Dermott and think he'll be able to make Jake expendable. But Im wondering if we will still lose Jake for nothing.

With cap concerns Id like to not have his salary on the books next year especially since he'll get a raise from current. But is it realistic to thing that a playoff bound team will trade Jake prior to the deadline? Does anyone have any decent examples of teams trading such a player in such a position? I guess Im just trying to prepare for losing him for nothing (but cap space) like a few of last years UFAs.....which really pissed me off haha. But I don't see how Dubas could play it differently?

Thoughts?

I would try & trade Gards for a guy like Nutivaara.

That'll give us a replacement this year....and we don't lose Gards for nothing.

Nutivaara isn't as skilled as Gardiner....but:

- He's 24.
- He's a solid defender.
- He's signed for $2,700,000 x 4 years.

He could be a solid 2nd or 3rd LD....depending on how Dermott progresses.

TBH though we'd probably have to give up Gardiner+ to get it done.

I'd actually prefer Gardiner + two assets to get some retained salary.

Example: Gardiner + Brown + 4th .... FOR .... Nutivaara ($1,200,000 retained).

 

[Polaris1010]

At this point, they probably keep Gardiner and get rid of other people.

It is the stretch pass. Gardiner can do it. Babcock is a stretch pass kind of coach. Unless they can find a defence man in the system that can make a stretch pass and get around 50 points a season, then Gardiner is the man.

Notice lately that others teams are defending against the stretch pass?

They are defending against the Leafs stretch pass because it works. As long as you have defense men who can do it, it can work.

If they defend the stretch pass, guess what else you can do?

They can skate it straigth up f***** Broadway.

 

[nsleaf]

How does a player suck but still be highly valued on the open market exist? Weird.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

How does a player suck but still be highly valued on the open market exist? Weird.

Fans arent NHL general managers

 

[nsleaf]

Fans arent NHL general managers

True, but try telling them that.

 

[Mr Hockey]

How does a player suck but still be highly valued on the open market exist? Weird.

His skill set could be a very good fit on a defensively strong team, but not so much on on a defensively weak team.

 

[Kurtz]

And I'm just saying we were first round dogs, we would have been dogs in every round after that and for that reason, I had our cup chances at about 3% or so. Without JVR, that goes down to maybe 2.9%, not even close to being a good gamble IMHO.

Can you think of an example where an NHL team was a lock for a playoff spot but decided to trade a 30 goal scorer for draft picks at the deadline? I'm not sure that it's ever been done - it just sends a terrible message to your players.

 

[Duke Silver]

Some fans are enamored (and for good reason) with what Jake brings to the table from an offensive production and positive possession standpoint, but are they convinced he'll continue to be effective in these areas between the ages of 29-35/36/37? I'm not. And I don't want to be locked into a $6.5m+ contract for a guy whose defensive game is still a work in progress at 500 GP and age 28.

I think Dermott represents a better, more solid defensive option at the LD2 position, and is capable of replicating at least 75% of Gardiner's yearly point totals. I'd use the money we save by not re-signing Gardiner to re-balance our defense and become more dependable in our own zone.

I haven't seen a mock-up of the Leafs 19-20 roster that keeps Gardiner and doesn't hilariously underpay Matthews/Marner/Nylander. Trading Marleau seems to be the sexy get-out-of-jail-free card but I'm not convinced Dubas wants to do that. Marleau's been a great veteran addition to our team and someone our players will play harder for, to try to get him a cup.

 

[hector morrison]

How does a player suck but still be highly valued on the open market exist? Weird.

Welll,the answer is ,he doesn't suck! The magnifying glass in Toronto is so strong at times it can literally burn a player through scrutiny! (i myself have held that magnifier!) . I think Dubas keeps him,he is a form of insurance should Reilly go down and like JVR, you get the money you would of had to pay him.

 

[nsleaf]

His skill set could be a very good fit on a defensively strong team, but not so much on on a defensively weak team.

OK, but a bone head stretch pass is still a bone head stretch pass no matter what team.
The guy thinks like Jack Handey.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Can you think of an example where an NHL team was a lock for a playoff spot but decided to trade a 30 goal scorer for draft picks at the deadline? I'm not sure that it's ever been done - it just sends a terrible message to your players.

Can you think of an example of a 30 goal scorer that was so poor defensively that his net worth to team is so questionable?

Even if your point about the "message" is valid (debatable), the Leafs were on the bubble in January and should have traded him then. Or they should have done it in the off-season. They should have known it wasn't quite their time just yet and had the patience to wait just one more year.

JMHO.

 

[Kurtz]

Can you think of an example of a 30 goal scorer that was so poor defensively that his net worth to team is so questionable?

Even if your point about the "message" is valid (debatable), the Leafs were on the bubble in January and should have traded him then. Or they should have done it in the off-season. They should have known it wasn't quite their time just yet and had the patience to wait just one more year.

JMHO.

There's a looong list of 30 goal scorers who are/were weak defensively. Just looking at recent former Leafs: Berezin, Lupul, Jeff O'Neill, arguably Mogilny, arguably Kessel.

I agree with you on paper - I don't think trading JVR would have made us much worse, and if we were running a simulation, I'd have dealt JVR (and Bozak) for picks in a minute. But in the NHL, such a move just doesn't happen.

 

[Mr Hockey]

OK, but a bone head stretch pass is still a bone head stretch pass no matter what team.
The guy thinks like Jack Handey.

I liked Gardiner when he first came here, i thought he would develop into star but soon realized he has a ton of skill but lacks the smarts/heart to turn himself into a #1 d'man.

 

[Mr Hockey]

Does anyone know why Gardiner was converted to a d'man, i think it happened in college? i have always been curious about this.