TV: Game of Thrones | Season 8 (Final) | Part IX -TV talk ONLY -NO Books, Spoilers, NO LEAKS

[Blender]

How so? They live and die with their horses. Their entire culture is based on that animal.

Yes they have a horse culture, but it isn't presented in the typical way other horse cultures are known to have been. Based on what we see, a large number of people would have spent all of their time herding extra horses, since we rarely ever see any individual Dothraki with more than one. In real life steppe nomads had in some cases over 10 horses that would follow them around like dogs, so no need to herd them at all. Part of the reason they could travel huge distances at speed was that they always had remounts following them. Especially in the case of Khal Drogo, but for any of the Khalasars we've seen, the amount of wealth they have in no way reflects the reputation we are told they have. In a typical steppe conqueror way, it's fine for Khal Drogo to look poor but everyone following him should be very wealthy based on what we're told of him, but we see little in the way of wealth. They could have a cultural taboo against accumulating stuff, but than it doesn't make sense for them constantly raiding their neighbors for stuff.

For their military capabilities, they would be awful in real life. Steppe nomads were so successful and feared for thousands of years because they were mostly horse archers and until the widespread use of firearms, the only way to deal with horse archers was to hire other horse archers to fight them. Archers seem to be a secondary thing for the Dothraki, which is a big problem for their chances against settled societies. Instead of a bow, they use that curved sword (looks like a khopesh in the show and a scimitar in the books) which is utterly stupid for cavalry while the book one is more realistic at least, but still fairly useless against armored opponents. The Dothraki wear no armor of any kind, which I could forgive a bit more if they were all horse archers, but since they are charging in with a fairly short sword, any kind of formed and armed infantry would destroy them. Horse archers are so effective because they an hit you from distance while moving the entire time until you either break and chase after them, or break and run. Either way they can then swarm your force and pick everyone off one by one over miles. They rarely ever charged head on into a formed line unless they used a small group of cataphracts (essentially an armored knight) to do so, which the Dothraki also don't have any of. I have no reason to believe from what we have seen that the Dothraki in any way deserve their reputation for great military prowess on a large scale. They are obviously great individual warriors, which is pretty much the opposite of the steppe nomad archetype who are incredible in groups but weaker individually compared to European knights who are incredible individual fighters but bad in groups.

 

[glovesave_35]

Yes they have a horse culture, but it isn't presented in the typical way other horse cultures are known to have been. Based on what we see, a large number of people would have spent all of their time herding extra horses, since we rarely ever see any individual Dothraki with more than one. In real life steppe nomads had in some cases over 10 horses that would follow them around like dogs, so no need to herd them at all. Part of the reason they could travel huge distances at speed was that they always had remounts following them. Especially in the case of Khal Drogo, but for any of the Khalasars we've seen, the amount of wealth they have in no way reflects the reputation we are told they have. In a typical steppe conqueror way, it's fine for Khal Drogo to look poor but everyone following him should be very wealthy based on what we're told of him, but we see little in the way of wealth. They could have a cultural taboo against accumulating stuff, but than it doesn't make sense for them constantly raiding their neighbors for stuff.

For their military capabilities, they would be awful in real life. Steppe nomads were so successful and feared for thousands of years because they were mostly horse archers and until the widespread use of firearms, the only way to deal with horse archers was to hire other horse archers to fight them. Archers seem to be a secondary thing for the Dothraki, which is a big problem for their chances against settled societies. Instead of a bow, they use that curved sword (looks like a khopesh in the show and a scimitar in the books) which is utterly stupid for cavalry while the book one is more realistic at least, but still fairly useless against armored opponents. The Dothraki wear no armor of any kind, which I could forgive a bit more if they were all horse archers, but since they are charging in with a fairly short sword, any kind of formed and armed infantry would destroy them. Horse archers are so effective because they an hit you from distance while moving the entire time until you either break and chase after them, or break and run. Either way they can then swarm your force and pick everyone off one by one over miles. They rarely ever charged head on into a formed line unless they used a small group of cataphracts (essentially an armored knight) to do so, which the Dothraki also don't have any of. I have no reason to believe from what we have seen that the Dothraki in any way deserve their reputation for great military prowess on a large scale. They are obviously great individual warriors, which is pretty much the opposite of the steppe nomad archetype who are incredible in groups but weaker individually compared to European knights who are incredible individual fighters but bad in groups.

The whole point was speed on horseback. All the information you listed is interesting but doesn't dissuade me from believing that a Dothraki warrior would be faster on horseback than any of those mounted soldiers.

 

[Blender]

The whole point was speed on horseback. All the information you listed is interesting but doesn't dissuade me from believing that a Dothraki warrior would be faster on horseback than any of those mounted soldiers.

I agreed they would be faster in the post you quoted...

You asked why I didn't think they were realistic steppe nomads.

 

[Lshap]

The last two pages of this thread are giving me a good idea for a show.

Interview ex/retired Generals and higher ranked Armed Forces from various countries and ask them how they would've handled various TV and movie battles. Ask them from both sides. Could be cool to see their actual expertise be used to go further in depth with our favorite pop culture battle scenes

Very clever idea and very marketable. You could sell this based on a solid treatment. Securing the rights to the TV and film scenes is possible, but I'm wondering if there'd be resistance because the show will focus on pointing out flaws in the writing, acting and production.

 

[glovesave_35]

I agreed they would be faster in the post you quoted...

You asked why I didn't think they were realistic steppe nomads.

My bad. I wasn't sure why you brought it up because I didn't say they are a steppe nomad culture, even though I compared Mongols and European knights.

Edit: But since you brought it up, Dothraki do wear leather armor in battle.

 

[Siamese Dream]

We don't really see Dothraki horse archers much but it's implied they're good at it because Maester Luwin tells Bran they learn to do it when they are 3

 

[Blender]

We don't really see Dothraki horse archers much but it's implied they're good at it because Maester Luwin tells Bran they learn to do it when they are 3

I'm sure they are, my problem is the vast majority of their people should be horse archers. The battles we have seen the Dothraki involved in pretty much just have them charging straight on into the enemy as well, which is definitely not something any competent steppe army would do.

 

[peate]

Well I'm done with Season 5. Is Jon Snow dead? I remember the reaction here from back then.
I'm tempted to start 6 already but it's too damn hot. Winter is coming, hopefully.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Very clever idea and very marketable. You could sell this based on a solid treatment. Securing the rights to the TV and film scenes is possible, but I'm wondering if there'd be resistance because the show will focus on pointing out flaws in the writing, acting and production.

A very interesting idea, the discovery channel recently did something similar with their own produced fake doc on meglodon sharks from a few years back. They brought in real experts this year who pointed out all the inaccuracies of the original production. I enjoyed it!

 

[Whiplash27]

Honestly, the Dothraki being ridiculous horse archers could have been more interesting in a way. Arrows raining down on enemies and no one able to hit them back because they're not trained to hit such fast moving targets at long distances.

 

[Whiplash27]

Season 7 was a very messy season when it came to trying to fit all the right pieces together and provide great moments. Even that battle (which seems to be the favorite of everyone) was flawed and had major issues getting to that point in the first place.

I feel like the whole show has been messy since Season 5. Some people will blame D&D, but honestly I'll blame George RR Martin for crafting a story where the two main characters weren't ready to jump into the major plot until so late in the game. From the beginning the whole story was Jon plot, Dany Plot, Everyone else's Plot. Everyone else's plot was the war of the five kings along with its fallout for 4 seasons. Everyone who wasn't involved in Jon or Dany plot were involved in that plot in one way or another. Once you kill off Robb, Joffrey, and Tywin and send Tyrion and Varys to Essos, the "Everyone else's" plot becomes completely scattered. Cersei's fighting against the Tyrells and the Sparrows, Sansa and Theon are surviving against Ramsey, Arya is going through boring training at the house of black and white, Littlefinger is kind of going back and forth doing random crap, Brienne is floating around near Sansa, Bran goes missing for a season and then is doing his training, Sam is off running to the Citadel very loosely involved in Jon's plot, Jamie and Bronn are off in Dorne in the worst story line of the series. Meanwhile, Stannis is joining Jon Plot for a while, Tyrion is joining Dany plot. Sansa eventually joins Jon Plot.

This is how stuff is for about two seasons until Jon wins back Winterfell and a bunch of people join his plot, Dany comes to Westeros and a bunch of people join her and then everything else converges on them and the plot becomes more or less enjoined. So two seasons of scattered plots and then finally everything comes back together when Jon and Dany join the fold and guess what? Time to cram the last two seasons into 13 episodes instead of fleshing out the climax of the series.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

I find myself not really caring as much for the war for Westeros as I should. With all the known characters dead except Cersei and Jamie it doesnt have the same weight as it would if Dany invaded in any single season before. It really kills it and there have been a bunch of fights where I wanted both sides to not die: Hound vs Brienne, Hound vs Beric Dondarrion, Oberyn vs the Mountain, Ned vs Jamie, hell even Tormund vs Thorne as brief as it was

 

[tarheelhockey]

Something I just learned that I can’t find anywhere on the internet:

In Westeros, family relationships are described using literally-translated French nomenclature. For example, Margery is not Cersei’s daughter-in-law but her “good-daughter”, from the French belle-fille. Likewise Cersei is Margery’s “good-mother”, from belle-mère.

Only one word escapes this convention: the son-in-law, which in French is the gendre... which is surely GRRM’s inspiration for the name “Gendry”.

The interesting extra layer is that capital-G Gendre is also a real-life example of an heraldic surname, like Sand or Snow in GOT. For the medieval French it carried a very specific meaning: a man who has inherited his estate through his father-in-law rather than direct lineage. Of course this is nearly the opposite of Gendry, who could be the most legitimate living claimant to the throne but lacks the practical means (swords) to enforce it. And in turn, the name is a reminder that this guy is somehow still alive and only a wealthy father-in-law away.

 

[Siamese Dream]

Something I just learned that I can’t find anywhere on the internet:

In Westeros, family relationships are described using literally-translated French nomenclature. For example, Margery is not Cersei’s daughter-in-law but her “good-daughter”, from the French belle-fille. Likewise Cersei is Margery’s “good-mother”, from belle-mère.

Only one word escapes this convention: the son-in-law, which in French is the gendre... which is surely GRRM’s inspiration for the name “Gendry”.

The interesting extra layer is that capital-G Gendre is also a real-life example of an heraldic surname, like Sand or Snow in GOT. For the medieval French it carried a very specific meaning: a man who has inherited his estate through his father-in-law rather than direct lineage. Of course this is nearly the opposite of Gendry, who could be the most legitimate living claimant to the throne but lacks the practical means (swords) to enforce it. And in turn, the name is a reminder that this guy is somehow still alive and only a wealthy father-in-law away.

With the Gendry thing it's worth noting that GRRM has said if he can't think of a name for a character then he doesn't know who that character is and can't proceed to write that character.

So the names have some significance

 

[Daisy Jane]

Do we have any idea when season eight is coming?
I am craving GoT something fierce (i'm actually gonna do a re-watch)

 

[Daisy Jane]

Thats whats great about the show though. Olly had every reason to be angry at anyone harboring wildlings. Hell I wouldnt have hung the kid. He watched his family get butchered.

It also emphasized the issue that Stark Men have. they all believe the whole world works on how they see the world, and it pretty much (minus Bran), got them all killed.

Ned out of 'honour' tells Cersei his plans to basically remove her from power, and risk her life and children. Cersei said she'd rather die than do this, you should really change your way of thinking and Ned goes, "you should really do what I say - because I'm gonna be honourable" to which, Cersei does what she says she's gonna, saves her neck and chops off Ned's via proxy

Robb never catered to what his Bannermen wanted/needed (justice when Jaime tried to escape) never properly articulated his plans, and then ignored all council and married Not A Frey, and then trusted them after Cat said not to, resulting the death of everyone loyal to him. Where all he had to do was tell the Carstarks and the other pppl they will totally get their justice after they secured their plans (etc).

Jon was worse as he never really told anyone anything (and like Ned, tried to have the whole world try to see how he saw things, and just spouted off "Winter is Coming. Death is Coming. Night King is Coming." That doesn't matter to the other desires of people. Olly lost his whole family, and basically the guy he is trusting is trusting the people who murdered them.

with that being said. Olly was being trained as a steward (i'd imagine) and i assume took the black and as we saw Jon doesn't cotton to traitors or people who disobey his orders. he deserved to die, even though you could be sympathetic to his reasons of betrayal.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Do we have any idea when season eight is coming?
I am craving GoT something fierce (i'm actually gonna do a re-watch)

2019. I would guess second half of the year.

 

[JJ68]

Its been stated to start in the first half.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Whatever or whoever decided that Littlefinger should change his accent was a wrong one. he doesn't seem as slimy as he did in season 1 compared to season 4-7.

Also. oi, Ned was dumb.

 

[Siamese Dream]

All the stuff between Littlefinger and Varys especially in season 1 was so good, and none of that came from George

What happened to that quality of writing? We went from chaos is a ladder to the bad p***y in a couple of seasons

What does Varys even do now anyways? It seems like he's literally pointless

 

[glovesave_35]

What does Varys even do now anyways? It seems like he's literally pointless

Seems fair to me for certain characters of any film, TV, or book to have greater importance at certain points during the story.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I think for the most part, Varys has always been consistent. made moves that he felt that would be ideal for the realm he wanted to protect and be a part of. (this kind of makes me feel believe that the whole thing will end with a formation of some form of republic/democracy NOT a monarchy. all the talk about breaking wheels etc and how Varys is "for the people." makes me think that).

 

[RandV]

Whatever or whoever decided that Littlefinger should change his accent was a wrong one. he doesn't seem as slimy as he did in season 1 compared to season 4-7.

Also. oi, Ned was dumb.

Eh I've always defended my boy Ned here, he wasn't dumb he was principled and for good reason. Laws of succession existed in a feudal society for good reason, because while they may be imperfect in the long run having clean non-violent successions is in the best interest of everyone, from kings to minor nobility. If everyone just followed their own selfish best interest it would just be endless bloodshed... which is more or less what happened.

Case in point, now that we're at the end game where are all those people who were 'smarter' than Ned now? They're either dead or lost everything... in Cersei's case Queen of ashes with all her precious children dead and her lover/brother abandoned her. She should have taken her children and fled when Ned gave her the chance.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Eh I've always defended my boy Ned here, he wasn't dumb he was principled and for good reason. Laws of succession existed in a feudal society for good reason, because while they may be imperfect in the long run having clean non-violent successions is in the best interest of everyone, from kings to minor nobility. If everyone just followed their own selfish best interest it would just be endless bloodshed... which is more or less what happened.

Case in point, now that we're at the end game where are all those people who were 'smarter' than Ned now? They're either dead or lost everything... in Cersei's case Queen of ashes with all her precious children dead and her lover/brother abandoned her. She should have taken her children and fled when Ned gave her the chance.

Oh true.
I just mean dumb in the sense that in the eight episodes. (seven as he was captured if I recall correctly in episode seven), basically everyone told him what was going to happen. Starks don't do well in south (citing Rikard and Brandon's deaths). Almost everyone told him the truth about what was gonna happen.

Littlefinger told him exactly what to do (to ensure his safety), then told him not to trust him (not in the same scene). Varys and Pycelle also laid hints on him being so principled was going to land him where Arryn did. Dead.

He warns Cersei and Cersei flat out said she'd rather die than lose the "Game of Thrones", so (not said) - reconsider your position. He doesn't. Resulting him being branded a traitor, and trusting someone he flat out knows is a liar (Joffrey). Even Arya (even though it made no sense) warned him how wolves die. He can not be that naive not to know that he is THE Wolf.

even Stannis said it in chapter two. Ned (doing the right thing) Tells Stannis the truth and no one else. Stannis, wisely tells everyone. They could choose to ignore it, they could believe it, but they can not say they didn't know. Even Renley told him that the more time he gave Cersei the less chance he'd have at getting out of this alive, and I honestly felt that he felt that Robert's dying words would have given him some sort of protection (even with the cloaks/city watch he felt he had at his back)

it was sort of like the conversation Selmy, Jorah and Dany were having about purchasing the Unsullied. Selmy was like, no, no slaves, you need people who you can trust etc, and Jorah was like yah. Rhaegar was loved, Rhaegar was trusted and Rhaegar died (or however it goes). same with Ned. i get the principle (and what he intended to do) but he didn't really take much to protect himself OR his daughters in trying to protect the throne, despite multiple warnings from multiple people.

same thing about Robb too. they operate as if everyone views the world like they do Jon as well, and all 3 times, it ended up in them being killed.

 

[darko]

All the stuff between Littlefinger and Varys especially in season 1 was so good, and none of that came from George

What happened to that quality of writing? We went from chaos is a ladder to the bad ***** in a couple of seasons

What does Varys even do now anyways? It seems like he's literally pointless

Are you still bummed out about Baby Sam?