GDT: Game 8: Avs @ Panthers | Tuesday, October 27th, 5:30pm MT | Pitchforks

Status
Not open for further replies.

AllAboutAvs

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Aug 25, 2006
9,449
7,601
But we play a one and done style offense. Its most likely going to be like that.

The goal, is to have a quick-strike, counter attack and use speed to generate good chances.

Basically, we chase while the cycle is happening in our zone for a while, and then, either we get a turnover and try to counter attack, or, the shift is too long in our zone, and we dump and change.

The avs just do not cycle in the offensive zone. And, that has to be by choice (coaching) in other words.
That's why I was saying both system/players are to blame. If the system is designed this way then it means that the players are not good enough to implement it due to not being able to either make or receive those kind of passes properly. If the system is not designed this way and the players are doing this on their own then they must be held accountable for not following the coaches' system.

Either way it has to stop because we giving up possession or icing the puck way too much and therefore handing up back in our zone.
 

Pokecheque

I’ve been told it’s spelled “Pokecheck”
Sponsor
Aug 5, 2003
46,221
29,353
The Flatlands
www.armoredheadspace.com
While they may be working hard (and I agree, it ain't a lack of effort) they do seem a tad reluctant to go into the hard areas and take/give punishment. They're playing a lot of perimeter hockey and sure seem like they're too easily shaken/intimidated. Even Zadorov went kinda soft after getting banged around by Columbus's big, mean forwards. Perhaps part of that is just a delicate mindset right now, I don't know. It's not laziness, but working hard is also a willingness to do the ugly things. Right now, they as a whole just aren't doing that except for maybe the 4th line, which is why they've been the most successful line for the Avs thus far.

On the other hand, they're also not the most disciplined team on the ice. That needs to change as well. Too many stupid penalties being taken by this club at present. I assume that too speaks to frustration, but it's no less acceptable.
 

AvalancheFan19

Registered User
May 3, 2009
2,398
397
I feel like we've gotten bigger but aren't playing like a bigger team. We have to learn how to generate opportunities down low and work on the cycle. Even on the PP we're constantly working the puck up high, specifically in the top right hand corner waiting for the perfect shot. I'd personally like to see more chances come from a cycle down low. We also always need traffic in front, that's been a constant problem or us too. And no, the solution isn't sticking McLeod there (zing). We've been passing better, which is a huge positive and we're slowly but surely taking steps in the right direction. The sky isn't falling but if we're not going to make the playoffs we need our core pieces to have a solids year at the very least. Plenty of talent on this team, can't lose site of that.
 

tigervixxxen

Optimism=Delusional
Jul 7, 2013
53,061
6,158
Denver
burgundy-review.com
While they may be working hard (and I agree, it ain't a lack of effort) they do seem a tad reluctant to go into the hard areas and take/give punishment. They're playing a lot of perimeter hockey and sure seem like they're too easily shaken/intimidated. Even Zadorov went kinda soft after getting banged around by Columbus's big, mean forwards. Perhaps part of that is just a delicate mindset right now, I don't know. It's not laziness, but working hard is also a willingness to do the ugly things. Right now, they as a whole just aren't doing that except for maybe the 4th line, which is why they've been the most successful line for the Avs thus far.

On the other hand, they're also not the most disciplined team on the ice. That needs to change as well. Too many stupid penalties being taken by this club at present. I assume that too speaks to frustration, but it's no less acceptable.

I'll agree with that. I can also live with penalties for being aggressive.
 

dahrougem2

Registered User
Dec 9, 2011
37,365
39,166
Edmonton, Alberta
This team needs a killer. A Downie-type of player. Not every team needs one of those, but this team does. They get rattled so easily and a majority of our team shy away from any physical play at all. They need someone who is going to lead the way and go through hell and high water to get this team going but isn't depended on to score every night.
 

Bender

Registered User
Sep 25, 2002
17,333
8,610
Seriously one sentence we are inferring all this from? From the guy who twice couldn't even get D pairs right even after talking to Roy. It's just looking for what you want to hear.

EJ is the part of the group that needs to do less talking and more doing.

Also the no effort no heart is the laziest criticism ever that's exactly not what they are doing. I don't know how anyone could see that second and third and say they had no urgency what does urgency look like? Scoring goals? I don't get it, it doesn't match reality at all. If anything they play scared and tentative, that's not no effort. Not to say there aren't games where that's the case. But come on, it's game 8 of the season and they've already said it's embarrassing but yet nobody cares? When they go out there and put 10 shots in goal ok yeah maybe they mailed that one in. That's not what's happening here. This team is **** I'm not defending them but it's the laziest thing to rationalize poor play. Is it to keep the delusion up that all it takes is an increased compete level and they'll start winning games? I don't get it at all. This team sucks period. There doesn't have to be a fault or a reason. Top to bottom it sucks. It has sucked for the last decade.

Urgency is moving your feet to defend against an opponent in your D-zone instead of gliding and hooking him with your stick and taking a penalty that lead to a PP goal against.

Urgency is attacking an opponent at the blue line when killing a penalty instead of letting him skate into your D-zone 1v3 and walk in on net and score a goal.

Urgency is attacking the net on the powerplay with bodies in front, screens, and shots on goal instead of passing the puck around the perimeter for over a minute; twice in the same game.

These are but three instances in the last game alone where the lack of compete has cost the Avs a game. There have been many, many instances similar to this that are costing the Avs games.

Yes, the team is making bad decisions but they are also lacking in compete level. The head coach said publicly after one ugly defeat that the team got outworked and didn't compete. The captain has said multiple times in interviews that the team got outworked and that's why they lost. The #1 Dman has said in post game interviews the team got outworked by the opponent and that's why they lost.

Unfortunately the coach and players are saying the right things but they're not doing the right things and that includes playing with urgency and a high compete level.

I believe you are BOTH right. It's not like the team isn't working, they are. Even Tanguay is skating pretty hard...he's taking stupid penalties because he thinks that putting his stick in the mid-section of the opposing player is doing something when it usually results in a penalty. Instead of skating harder and taking the guy out, he's making a bad play. But at the same time, it's not like he's disinterested and not trying.

I do agree with TV that it's annoying to always read complaints from others that 'so and so is lazy' or that the team is playing 'lazy' when it's not always accurate. They could be playing better or smarter but there haven't been many games this year where I was unhappy with their overall effort.


In my opinion, Av-merican has the correct answer below:

While they may be working hard (and I agree, it ain't a lack of effort) they do seem a tad reluctant to go into the hard areas and take/give punishment. They're playing a lot of perimeter hockey and sure seem like they're too easily shaken/intimidated. Even Zadorov went kinda soft after getting banged around by Columbus's big, mean forwards. Perhaps part of that is just a delicate mindset right now, I don't know. It's not laziness, but working hard is also a willingness to do the ugly things. Right now, they as a whole just aren't doing that except for maybe the 4th line, which is why they've been the most successful line for the Avs thus far.

On the other hand, they're also not the most disciplined team on the ice. That needs to change as well. Too many stupid penalties being taken by this club at present. I assume that too speaks to frustration, but it's no less acceptable.

I believe this is accurate. There was a shift very late in the game last night where ,I believe it was Grigorenko who forechecked really hard against a panther in his own zone, took the man out and got the puck...and I was like....YEAH! Where the hell has THAT been all year?? The Avs as a team are WAY too content to just give the puck to the other team and let them come at us. It's insanely EASY for other teams to break the puck out against us...we're essentially waiting for it to happen. THIS is a huge part of what is wrong with this club.

If Roy wants to put Everberg on the Duchene line, Skille on the Mack line and Comeau with Soderberg, those guys will need to forecheck like Grigorenko did to put some frikkin' pressure on the other team for a change. Otherwise, they're just going north-south the whole game and not doing a hell of a lot.
 

ABasin

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Dec 4, 2002
10,671
1,609
This team needs a killer. A Downie-type of player. Not every team needs one of those, but this team does. They get rattled so easily and a majority of our team shy away from any physical play at all. They need someone who is going to lead the way and go through hell and high water to get this team going but isn't depended on to score every night.

I think when they handed out the 'C' to a certain 19 year old, they had that in mind.

I did anyway.
 

dahrougem2

Registered User
Dec 9, 2011
37,365
39,166
Edmonton, Alberta
Yay, lets get the "Is Landeskog a good enough leader?" debate going again...

Not that he isn't a good enough leader, and personally I wasn't trying to pinpoint him when I said what I said. Just saying this team needs someone who can bring the team together with his fearless play.
 

CB Joe

Registered User
Oct 12, 2008
7,739
1,115
The game was good until the third. I really liked the way the Avs played in the first two periods. The Avs were skating well and they were physical. The team got lazy and sloppy in the third and it cost them. Berra back to being Berra.

I don't like the set up of the powerplay. The wingers are way to high in the zone forcing them to shoot from low percentage areas. Too much passing. Not enough traffic on front when there is a shot.

The PK is too passive. There isn't enough pressure on the puck carrier. The opposition as all day to look for options.
 

CobraAcesS

De Opresso Liber
Sponsor
Jul 20, 2011
25,898
9,876
Michigan
Yay, lets get the "Is Landeskog a good enough leader?" debate going again...

Not that he isn't a good enough leader, and personally I wasn't trying to pinpoint him when I said what I said. Just saying this team needs someone who can bring the team together with his fearless play.

Yeah Landeskog has gone from smart intensity, to frustrated costly intensity some games. Hes still young, so I'd imagine it will even out at some point.

Can't be easy leading these cats right now
 

hoserthehorrible

Registered User
Jul 15, 2003
1,633
453
Colorado
I believe you are BOTH right. It's not like the team isn't working, they are. Even Tanguay is skating pretty hard...he's taking stupid penalties because he thinks that putting his stick in the mid-section of the opposing player is doing something when it usually results in a penalty. Instead of skating harder and taking the guy out, he's making a bad play. But at the same time, it's not like he's disinterested and not trying.

I do agree with TV that it's annoying to always read complaints from others that 'so and so is lazy' or that the team is playing 'lazy' when it's not always accurate. They could be playing better or smarter but there haven't been many games this year where I was unhappy with their overall effort.


In my opinion, Av-merican has the correct answer below:



I believe this is accurate. There was a shift very late in the game last night where ,I believe it was Grigorenko who forechecked really hard against a panther in his own zone, took the man out and got the puck...and I was like....YEAH! Where the hell has THAT been all year?? The Avs as a team are WAY too content to just give the puck to the other team and let them come at us. It's insanely EASY for other teams to break the puck out against us...we're essentially waiting for it to happen. THIS is a huge part of what is wrong with this club.

If Roy wants to put Everberg on the Duchene line, Skille on the Mack line and Comeau with Soderberg, those guys will need to forecheck like Grigorenko did to put some frikkin' pressure on the other team for a change. Otherwise, they're just going north-south the whole game and not doing a hell of a lot.
I'm not saying the Avs players are lazy and they're not skating hard. I'm saying their compete level is not good enough. Other teams are out-competing them.

On the first penalty Tanguay tried to defend using his stick and he got a penalty because of it which lead to a PP goal for Florida instead of moving his feet and using his body to defend. That's not competing hard enough in your own D-zone.

The first goal Florida scored was also because Mitchell didn't confront the Florida player at the blue line and prevent him from entering the D-zone. Instead he backed off and let him enter the D-zone without putting up a fight. The guy skated in and got a good shot off and scored and nobody even touched him. That's not competing hard enough.

The Avs had a couple power plays early and rather than fight for position in front of the net in order to screen the goalie and get shots on net and battle for a rebound they decided to pass the puck around the perimeter for over a minute without a shot on net. They did this twice. Rycroft showed the video during intermission and highlighted this in slow motion. In interviews before the game Roy said this is exactly what he DIDN'T want to see so it's not like it was strategy handed down by the coaching staff.

There are many, many, many situations like this over the first 8 games that are becoming a significant barrier to success. Hell, even one of the Florida players said in an interview after the game that the Avs are more or less easy to play against right now (I'm paraphrasing).

I think the Avs players want to win, I think they believe they are working hard, however there are lots of moments so far this season where the other teams are simply out-competing them. Yeah, part of it might be lack of confidence and part of it may be indecisiveness because of new players on the team but at some point they have to show up and out-compete their opponents for a full 60 minutes to get back on track. Once they do this a few times their confidence will come back and good things will start to happen.

This isn't some new concept I've come up with. This is a very old belief, specially in hockey, where the best way to get out of a slump is to simply work harder than your opponent and give them no opportunity to beat you.
 

InjuredChoker

Registered User
Dec 25, 2011
31,402
345
LTIR or golf course
But we play a one and done style offense. Its most likely going to be like that.

The goal, is to have a quick-strike, counter attack and use speed to generate good chances.

Basically, we chase while the cycle is happening in our zone for a while, and then, either we get a turnover and try to counter attack, or, the shift is too long in our zone, and we dump and change.

The avs just do not cycle in the offensive zone. And, that has to be by choice (coaching) in other words.

what i don't get is why they focus so heavily on size when their offense is based on speed and skill. why they ice guenin and co over guys who can actually move the puck. why they sign guys like soderberg who is basically only great at cycling the puck.
 

JoemAvs

Registered User
Jul 2, 2011
13,671
4,116
what i don't get is why they focus so heavily on size when their offense is based on speed and skill. why they ice guenin and co over guys who can actually move the puck. why they sign guys like soderberg who is basically only great at cycling the puck.

They overcorrected a flaw that might not even have been there.

I really think that losing to the Wild of all teams in that game 7 really stung some people in our organisation pretty badly.

That is why they brought in all that size and all the vets. They thought that the team was ready to contend and that is what is lacking. Clearly a misevaluation shared by many fans.

They broke it. Now they can't play the game that got them to the playoffs in the first place anymore because of a lack of skill and speed (and puckluck and inhumane goaltending) and they can't change the outlook of the team either because the other half of the team is still not suited for it. We are sitting between the chairs.

Also from all accounts Roy is simply a size queen :sarcasm:
 

Pokecheque

I’ve been told it’s spelled “Pokecheck”
Sponsor
Aug 5, 2003
46,221
29,353
The Flatlands
www.armoredheadspace.com
I don't think Roy abruptly changed course because the Wylde banged the Avs around in the postseason. Despite the slimy cheap shot from Matt Cooke, it's pretty clear in hindsight that the Avs lost that series because Minnesota was better.

Yes, Roy has made/is making mistakes concerning size and grit over skill. Getting Stuart was a mistake. Continuing to rely on Nate Guenin is a huge mistake. But apart from that, Roy hasn't made this team into a big, slow, lumbering blob on skates. It was like that before he showed up and the new brain trust hasn't really made the team slower. As I said in another thread they seem to be relying on a slower system, but they're not overly enamored with slower skaters. If that was the case Stuart would still be seeing regular time.

Much as I would love an abrupt end to the Guenin Era, it's gonna be gradual. Sucks, but Roy is bound and determined to bring Gormley along slowly. That's fine though, losing Nate Guenin won't make the Avs that much better overnight, but it's a step in the right direction.
 

tigervixxxen

Optimism=Delusional
Jul 7, 2013
53,061
6,158
Denver
burgundy-review.com
They needed size because they were constantly getting thrown around like little kids against the big teams. I don't think they have brought in or drafted anyone that is big just to be big. We have our skill players, now it is how are you going to compliment them. Zadorov is big and skilled, Rantanen is big and skilled. The major pieces for the future are not lacking in the skill department.
 

Foppa2118

Registered User
Oct 3, 2003
52,347
31,519
To TV's point, the quote isn't clear and that's probably on purpose knowing Chambers. But if the insinuation is indeed true, it wouldn't come as a shock to see some of the players starting to question the system. Speaking against a coach to the media is a potential step toward a team-wide implosion.

Chambers probably set him up asking the question like the idea was coming from him not Roy. He probably never even mentioned Roy's name.

I seriously doubt Soderberg is publicly "questioning the system" eight games into his tenure with a new team.
 

Duchene2MacKinnon

In the hands of Genius
Aug 8, 2006
45,300
9,465
They needed size because they were constantly getting thrown around like little kids against the big teams. I don't think they have brought in or drafted anyone that is big just to be big. We have our skill players, now it is how are you going to compliment them. Zadorov is big and skilled, Rantanen is big and skilled. The major pieces for the future are not lacking in the skill department.

Everberg,Rendulic, Guenin and Stuart?
 

LieutenantDangle

Barry McKockner
Oct 28, 2014
4,244
1,445
'Merica
you know what one of the sadder parts about being at this game was?
well aside from the fact that 2/3rds of the seats were empty at least...
its the fact that all the panther fans surrounding me were making comments about how good the avalanche were/looked in the first period. they could identify the high level of skill our players possess and they were envious. Their jaws were gaping so to say. But that skill and intensity the avs possessed at the beginning of the game didn't lead to anything at all. Luo made some solid saves and then their play just fizzled off. Initially they played with swagger and confidence, but the longer the contest wore on, the worse they looked :(
 

LieutenantDangle

Barry McKockner
Oct 28, 2014
4,244
1,445
'Merica
Everberg,Rendulic, Guenin and Stuart?

everberg and rendulic were brought in as young depth players for their ahl affiliate that cost the avs zero assets to acquire. they had no intentions of playing them in the nhl, but then our entire bottom 6 went on IR and their hands were tied. those were literally just meant to be depth signings, not big bodies to bring into the nhl
 

The Merchant

1787
Sponsor
Aug 2, 2011
19,427
29,742
El Pueblo
Chambers probably set him up asking the question like the idea was coming from him not Roy. He probably never even mentioned Roy's name.

I seriously doubt Soderberg is publicly "questioning the system" eight games into his tenure with a new team.

Exactly. It probably would've been blown up into its own big clickbait article had that been the case.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad