GDT: Game 7: Blue Jackets @ Avs | October 24th, 7PM MT/4AM Finnish | Saviours?

[RockLobster]

And I have to defend Freudian on this one.

I seriously question your judgement if you believe that Sacco had anywhere close to as much talent to work with as Roy does. Just look at the rosters. Roy SHOULD do much better.

So WHO did Sacco not have, that we have to have this DUMBASS argument again? Sacco had Landeskog, Duchene, Stastny, EJ, Varlamov, O'Reilly, Barrie as players who are either apart of our core now, or were apart of our core before leaving (Stastny/O'Reilly).

I look at that, and aside from not having MacKinnon, which Sacco's terrible coaching gifted us, there's not many core players on the roster right now, that weren't there when Sacco was a coach.

The argument that Sacco "didn't have the talent" is a fallacy, he had nearly the same core players that we have now. In fact, his coaching seemed to bring down Stastny's offensive abilities.

I mean people, can you really think about this. People are actually bringing up Sacco here. ****ing SACCO, and indicating that Roy and Sacco are "pretty much on the same level"?

Sacco's BEST SEASON was 95 points, Roy's worst season was 90 (albeit he's only had two seasons)...

This is an absolutely ludicrous discussion that's even being had.

 

[JoemAvs]

So it's Roy's fault for not getting the most out of his talented players but not Sacco? That's ridiculous.

Where did I say that?

I am simply saying that you are way off with your assessment of our talent level under Sacco vs under Roy.

Sacco had nowhere close to as much talent to work with.


@RL:

You gotta be kidding me.

If I would make the same argument than Foppa (and you to some extent are making) then:

Roy had:
Stastny,ROR, Duchene, Rantanen, Landeskog, Iginla (HHOF lock), Tanguay (HOF candidate), PAP, Barrie, Beauchemin,MacKinnon, Hejda, EJ,Zadorov, McGinn, Stuart,etc.

How couldn't he make that work and win a cup?
Nevermind that most of those guys were not on the team simultaneously and that guys like Tanguay and Iggy are over the hill.


Its just dishonest.

Also Barrie, Duchene, Landeskog, etc were rookies back then. Yeah it totally makes sense to say that rookie Barrie should be as good as 3rd or 4th year Barrie...



I don't even want to make this argument. It is just ridiculous revisionist history that is applied in here to make Roy look good.


I am nowhere making the case that Sacco was a good coach or close to as good as Roy. I was probably the worst offender when it came to *****ing about him.

But measuring Roy up against Sacco is just wrong. He has way more to work with.

And the preliminary assessment about him after those first games is simply not good.

 

[Foppa2118]

Where did I say that?

I am simply saying that you are way off with your assessment of our talent level under Sacco vs under Roy.

Sacco had nowhere close to as much talent to work with.

That is a pretty awesome top 9 actually and top 3.

too bad those players weren't all on the roster at the same time

Sacco had Duchene, Stastny, Stewart, Wolski, Hejduk, Liles, ROR, Mueller, and Svatos all in the same year. Plenty of talent to work with.

Who are the skilled players on the team now under Roy? Duchene, MacKinnon, and Landy? They're not really producing more than Stastny, Wolski, Stewart, and Hejduk were. After that it's an aging Tangs and Iggy, and underperforming Soda and Grigo? The difference isn't as much as you think.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

my post should have said "if Roy is entering a gunfight" because I agree. I made sure to word all my questions with "his players" because as was pointed out earlier (by Tweeky I think), much of this roster has been brought in or had their contracts extended since Roy came on board.

disclaimer: yes RL, I get, and have stated as much, that Sakic is the GM and should be accountable for the roster, but none of us really know how much influence Roy has. I can't imagine Roy isn't quite involved though and I thought got an added title to reflect that.

I knew what you meant I just the need to say it again.

Sacco had plenty of talent. He had Duchene, Hejduk, Mueller, Stewart (when he was playing well), Stastny, Svatos, ROR, Liles, Shattenkirk for half a season, EJ (who he almost ruined), Fleschman, Landy, PAP, etc.

We had no defence on that team, you can't really put Shatty/Stewart and EJ considering they weren't on the team together it makes it look better than it actually was.

I feel we got sidetracked here, I don't think Sacco is a better coach than Roy who had more talent is irrelevant. Roy has the players to win and he's not. who the better coach really doesn't matter the question should be asked if Roy is a good coach and that remains to be seen. until then he should get as much blame as anyone.


Another thing is Sakic is not the GM by his word other gm's call Roy to make trades. In any case they both deserve credit for the on ice performance.

 

[the_fan]

The Avs still need help on D, upgrade over Holden, Guenin, and they gonna need top 6 wingers.

 

[CB Joe]

Sacco had Duchene, Stastny, Stewart, Wolski, Hejduk, Liles, ROR, Mueller, and Svatos all in the same year. Plenty of talent to work with.

That wasn't all that long ago and 5 of those players aren't even in the league anymore.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

The Avs still need help on D, upgrade over Holden, Guenin, and they gonna need top 6 wingers.

Teams with lesser talent have been playing better.

 

[AslanRH]

Sacco had Duchene, Stastny, Stewart, Wolski, Hejduk, Liles, ROR, Mueller, and Svatos all in the same year. Plenty of talent to work with.

I get your point and think the argument is silly overall, but the disparaging of anyone questioning Roy has irked me a bit

So in comparison:
Sacco - Roy

Duchene - a more mature and experienced Duchene
Stastny - MacK
Stewart - Iginla
Hejduk - Landeskog
Wolski - Tanguay
Liles - EJ
ROR - Yeti
Mueller - Barrie
Svatos - Zadorov

I'd say the bold are clearly better talent than their comparison and much of the others are a relative wash

do we even need to mention the Goalies?

 

[RockLobster]

@RL:

You gotta be kidding me.

If I would make the same argument than Foppa (and you to some extent are making) then:

Roy had:
Stastny,ROR, Duchene, Rantanen, Landeskog, Iginla (HHOF lock), Tanguay (HOF candidate), PAP, Barrie, Beauchemin,MacKinnon, Hejda, EJ,Zadorov, McGinn, Stuart,etc.

How couldn't he make that work and win a cup?
Nevermind that most of those guys were not on the team simultaneously and that guys like Tanguay and Iggy are over the hill.


Its just dishonest.

Also Barrie, Duchene, Landeskog, etc were rookies back then. Yeah it totally makes sense to say that rookie Barrie should be as good as 3rd or 4th year Barrie...

Good god your double standard is ridiculous.

So, Sacco gets a pass on players like Barrie, Duchene, Landeskog because they were "rookies" (never mind that Sacco coached the first 4 years of Duchene/O'Reilly's career), but Rantanen is proof that Roy is somehow a "bad coach"? Come the **** on dude.

And then you point to Iginla and Tanguay as reasons why Roy should be better, but then slam them as "over the hill"?

I want you to say that you believe that Sacco is a better coach than Roy, because that is sure as hell what you're implying, double-standards and all. If you say that, then I'll know that there is never any reason to talk with you in the future.

Foppa pointed out the players and talent that Sacco had, but failed to get the most out of, but that's somehow "okay"? Once again, ridiculous.

 

[JoemAvs]

Sacco had Duchene, Stastny, Stewart, Wolski, Hejduk, Liles, ROR, Mueller, and Svatos all in the same year. Plenty of talent to work with.

Who are the skilled players on the team now under Roy? Duchene, MacKinnon, and Landy? They're not really producing more than Stastny, Wolski, Stewart, and Hejduk were. After that it's an aging Tangs and Iggy, and underperforming Soda and Grigo? The difference isn't as much as you think.

Sorry that is and was a terrible team.
Nowhere close to as talented as our current one.


Svatos was already broken down. Hejduk on his last (produtive legs), Mueller only good for 30 games or so until Blake broke him, Liles was valued by our own organization with a 2nd rounder, Wolski was traded for Mueller so never on the same team and Stewart already had issued.

And aside from EJ, we had absolutely no one on defense. No one. At all.


So I really don't get how you can compare that mess with a straight face to our current team. That first Sacco year was a miracle. In hindsight probably way more impressive than Roys first season.

And both were mostly because of inhumane goaltending.


Sacco is a terrible coach. The jury is out on Roy. But performing the Avs performance under Sacco with the one under Roy is just wrong.


@ RL:

I shouldn't even have listed Rantanen. I just wanted to show that it is completely pointless to list some players that played over a 4 year timespan for a coach and evaluate them later. That is why I wrote Iginla (HHOF). It is sarcasm. Of course Iggy is not great. But looking back like you two did, he certainly should be valued as great.

That is ********. If Rantanen will look great in 3 years according to your logic, we have to look back and value the talent higher because of hindsight. That is not how that works.

And our core should be way better under Roy than under Sacco just because of age. If you can not admit that than I can't help you.

Double standard...

 

[RockLobster]

I get your point and think the argument is silly overall, but the disparaging of anyone questioning Roy has irked me a bit

So in comparison:
Sacco - Roy

Duchene - a more mature and experienced Duchene
Stastny - MacK
Stewart - Iginla
Hejduk - Landeskog
Wolski - Tanguay
Liles - EJ
ROR - Yeti
Mueller - Barrie
Svatos - Zadorov

I'd say the bold are clearly better talent than their comparison and much of the others are a relative wash

do we even need to mention the Goalies?

Sacco coached Varlamov, so yeah, let's mention the goalies.

 

[AvsRobin]

I absolutely don't want Sacco back. But that was a cap floor team that was going through a re-build. Look where some of those players are today. Most of them don't even have a job in this league. That was a much worse roster than the one we have today.

My opinion is that the performance is worse in general, and at times, much worse now. Despite having what should be a much better roster.

If you disagree that's fine.

 

[AslanRH]

Sacco coached Varlamov, so yeah, let's mention the goalies.

The year they had Liles, Svatos and Mueller? because that is what my post was responding to.

I'm over this entire argument though because it doesn't matter when Sacco and most of those players aren't skating on Denver Ice.

and since you and I seem to cross more often than not anymore, I will defer and bow out now.

 

[Freudian]

I'm more worried about the similarities in how Avs play under Roy compared to how they played under Sacco.

The same inability to break out the puck. The same tracking problems in the neutral zone. The same passive defensive coverage. The same inability to manage a game with a lead, always giving away too much initiative in the third period.

Hopefully we'll see a shift towards more skill and mobility in player choices and the big names stepping up their play together with more structure in transition and defense. I wouldn't say they are free falling at the moment. More awkwardly tumbling down a hill.

Every Cup winner has players with limited skill and a few that aren't the greatest skater. They have coaches that help them cover up their weaknesses and a system the players can lean on when they need to. I don't think Sutter would ever play a Guenin, but he had a Regehr with nothing left in the tank, Greene and Jeff Schultz playing.

 

[5280]

I absolutely don't want Sacco back. But that was a cap floor team that was going through a re-build. Look where some of those players are today. Most of them don't even have a job in this league. That was a much worse roster than the one we have today.

My opinion is that the performance is worse in general, and at times, much worse now. Despite having what should be a much better roster.

If you disagree that's fine.

Nah, those Sacco days were pretty bad. I can't say we are that much better, but I don't believe we are "worse in general and much worse" at times.

 

[RockLobster]

The year they had Liles, Svatos and Mueller? because that is what my post was responding to.

I'm over this entire argument though because it doesn't matter when Sacco and most of those players aren't skating on Denver Ice.

and since you and I seem to cross more often than not anymore, I will defer and bow out now.

No, I misread.

[EDIT]

But going back and re-reading it, I'm curious as to why you matched up the players side-by-side in the manner you did. For instance, how on earth are Svatos and Zadorov comparable?

 

[the_fan]

Teams with lesser talent have been playing better.

Who?

The only one I can think of is Arizona but they won't be able to keep it up.

 

[Ivan13]

I'm more worried about the similarities in how Avs play under Roy compared to how they played under Sacco.

The same inability to break out the puck. The same tracking problems in the neutral zone. The same passive defensive coverage. The same inability to manage a game with a lead, always giving away too much initiative in the third period.

Hopefully we'll see a shift towards more skill and mobility in player choices and the big names stepping up their play together with more structure in transition and defense. I wouldn't say they are free falling at the moment. More awkwardly tumbling down a hill.

Every Cup winner has players with limited skill and a few that aren't the greatest skater. They have coaches that help them cover up their weaknesses and a system the players can lean on when they need to. I don't think Sutter would ever play a Guenin, but he had a Regehr with nothing left in the tank, Greene and Jeff Schultz playing.

Both the coach and the players are to be blamed here, I'd like to ask those who defend Roy by saying that the players aren't executing his game plan, isn't that a knock against the coach as well? What does it say about his authority if his message isn't getting through? What does it say about the players if they're ignoring their coach? If that's the case the core is rotten, but when you dare to mention any of the boards darlings getting traded or something similar you get roasted.

This roster is flawed up front, they lack two way players who can put up offense, but still the product on ice isn't up to par with what is on the roster.

 

[AslanRH]

No, I misread.

[EDIT]

But going back and re-reading it, I'm curious as to why you matched up the players side-by-side in the manner you did. For instance, how on earth are Svatos and Zadorov comparable?

Purely as a talent comparison level (then vs currently) using the players provided in the post I was referencing.

I could have left Svatos with Comeau and Mueller with Mitchell or whoever, but then we would have to account for Zads and Barrie to have comparisons from that year to be fair IMO.

I could go back and build the roster vs roster I suppose, but seems that once we get down to the 3rd and 4th liners and #5-7 defensemen it becomes a wash or even favorable to the 2015 team.

No matter as I don't think either side of the Roy argument is going to convince the other at this point, and many like myself are just in the middle and only questioning IF Roy is the coach this team needs and not ready to declare either way.

 

[BK Avs]

I'm certainly not in the Fire Roy camp (at least not yet), but a coach with a good system still needs to get his players to buy into it. Motivating your guys is a huge part of coaching. If a coach has a good system, but doesn't have the players to properly execute it, the coach needs to adjust his system to fit his players. When the coach has a hand in constructing the roster, as Roy does, that flaw is especially telling.

Right now, it's either A) the players are not being motivated/taught well enough to execute the system, or B) the system isn't right for the roster. There could also be C) this system is just an ineffective system, but I am still giving Roy the benefit of the doubt that he has a sharp hockey mind.

 

[Foppa2118]

Where did I say that?

I am simply saying that you are way off with your assessment of our talent level under Sacco vs under Roy.

Sacco had nowhere close to as much talent to work with.

I just don't see how you can think the talent discrepancy is anywhere near that much.

Look at the top offensive skill players and their production in the first two years under Sacco.

Stastny 136 points in 155 games.
Duchene - 122 points in 161 games
Hejduk - 100 points in 127 games
Stewart - 94 points in 113 games
Wolski - 47 points in 62 games
Jones - 61 points in 100 games

Roy has the better players, mainly because MacKinnon will be better and more skilled than all of them, but he doesn't have a vast amount more skilled offensive players producing for him. Talent was never an issue for Sacco's team, he had plenty of offensive players that produced for him.

We had no defence on that team, you can't really put Shatty/Stewart and EJ considering they weren't on the team together it makes it look better than it actually was.

I feel we got sidetracked here, I don't think Sacco is a better coach than Roy who had more talent is irrelevant. Roy has the players to win and he's not. who the better coach really doesn't matter the question should be asked if Roy is a good coach and that remains to be seen. until then he should get as much blame as anyone.


Another thing is Sakic is not the GM by his word other gm's call Roy to make trades. In any case they both deserve credit for the on ice performance.

That I agree with. The defense was much worse under Sacco. Roy still has similar issues personnel wise, but the guys at the top are better, and they're slowly fixing it the rest of the group.

It's just that the new guys that will help like Zadorov, Gormley, Bigras, are still young so they're going to make their own share of mistakes on occasion, so they're relying too much on guys like Holden, Guenin, and Stuart, who are comparable to the Quincy's, ROB's and SOB's of Sacco's era.

We did get off track with the Roy vs Sacco thing. I just don't see the discrepancy as being worth noting, but I'll digress.

 

[the_fan]

The coaches have faults no doubt, but at the end you need good players to be a winning team. If coaches could do it by themselves, Avs would win under Quenneville wouldn't they?

This team still doesn't have good defense, after the 1st pair there is no reliable pairing. Zadorov isn't impressive yet, hopefully in time he'll become a solid d-man.

Duchene has been horrible and the top 6 is thin as it is.

And Varlamov struggles further prove that the previous years when this team had success it was mainly due to goaltending.

The main reason I blame Roy is that he talks about having a good team to win but he really doesn't, and he makes questionable decisions as a coach.

 

[Foppa2118]

The coaches have faults no doubt, but at the end you need good players to be a winning team. If coaches could do it by themselves, Avs would win under Quenneville wouldn't they?

This team still doesn't have good defense, after the 1st pair there is no reliable pairing. Zadorov isn't impressive yet, hopefully in time he'll become a solid d-man.

Duchene has been horrible and the top 6 is thin as it is.

And Varlamov struggles further prove that the previous years when this team had success it was mainly due to goaltending.

The main reason I blame Roy is that he talks about having a good team to win but he really doesn't, and he makes questionable decisions as a coach.

Perfect example. Q could not get that team to play well, no matter how hard he tried. It had holes in the roster, and they didn't execute to the level needed. Roy has holes in his roster, but they're slowly trying to fix them. Mainly with young talent that is making their share of mistakes, so it's not the quick fix some hoped for.

 

[avsfan89]

I truly believe if they had continued to pound on Minny opening night and won that game, their record would be totally diff right now.

Confidence is an issue.

They'd be 4-1-1 maybe if they had won that game.

with wins against:

minny,
car,
clb
Ana

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Who?

The only one I can think of is Arizona but they won't be able to keep it up.

Yotes,Devils, Oilers and Bruins and if you asked me before the year began I'd add Florida,Dallas and Vancity. There are others I don't want to mention because like the 2nd group it's 50/50 and I don't want to start another useless debate.