GDT: Game 56: Canucks @ Avs | Tuesday, February 9th, 7pm MT | Ready to Riot

[henchman21]

I think we have to include the pick that turned into MacK as part of the previous regime...they were why the team was that bad. Not sure the pick would have been different...but the consensus at the time was Jones, which would not have been that wrong, given the centers we already had.

No certainty that the previous regime would have picked MacK or Jones. This group may not get credit for where the pick was... but they should get credit for the pick.

 

[Foppa2118]

97 if you go off when they were terrible. They started gathering their core in 02/03, Tallon wasn't GM until 05... didn't make the playoffs until 08-09.

I think you have to start their rebuild timer in 2003. That's when they started the season with their go to guys being Arnason and recently drafted Tuomo Ruutu.

Before that they were kinda like the Avs during the Sakic and Brunette tenure with Q. Still holding out hope but stuck in mediocrity. From 97-03 they still had guys like Amonte, Chelios, Suter, Zhamnov, Sullivan, Gilmour, Nylander, Housley, etc.

Maybe you could say 02 because they let Amonte walk, but they seemed like they were still going for it, finishing on the bubble in 9th place in the west that year.

The Hawks are a weird case though. They finished 15th in the west in 03-04. Then 14th, then 13th, then 10th. Then made the Western Finals their first year making the playoffs. Then won the Cup. Those last two seasons are crazy jumps in success. Hard to really compare them to other team's rebuilds.

 

[the_fan]

I don't think this curent Avs core is good enough to ever win them the cup or anything, they'll be lucky just to make the playoffs if even that. They have to make some big changes, trade or something.

 

[AslanRH]

Avs can't rebuild like the big markets though. Avs cant draw FAs without overpaying in term or salary as it is, much less do what Toronto is doing currently by signing guys short term, absorbing salary if needed all for the clear purpose of flipping them and adding picks. The Budget just doesn't seem to be there for that.

Avs haven't rebuilt like Tampa did because their scouts don't seem to have the same drafting success, especially in the later rounds. They did turn Downie into a likely franchise Goalie. Drafting/scouting has been key to why Detroit has yet to need to rebuild after the Yzerman generation, Lidstom generation, and now it looks like they are on a similar path as the Dats/Zett generation exits.

Florida, Edmonton, Buffalo, and even in a way Dallas will be the comparable teams to the Avs regarding rebuilding. I think the Avs are ahead of at least 2 of those teams in how things are shaping up, but what they do over the next 18 months will be a major factor in the results.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

A team isn't 3 players.

Hence, started and not finished. By 2013 they had major pieces of the rebuild. Their captain, 1st line centre, #1 dman and star goalie among others.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Hence, started and not finished. By 2013 they had major pieces of the rebuild. Their captain, 1st line centre, #1 dman and star goalie among others.

That's still 4 players.

 

[StLAvsFan]

What is his potential? Point per game or more?

That's the $36 million dollar question. For the Avs sake you hope he grows in the direction of becoming a consistently smart, two-way player, as opposed to a streaky kid who looks great for 3 or 4 games in a row, followed by 4 or 5 games looking like he has vapor-lock of the brain.

 

[PAZ]

Avs can't rebuild like the big markets though. Avs cant draw FAs without overpaying in term or salary as it is, much less do what Toronto is doing currently by signing guys short term, absorbing salary if needed all for the clear purpose of flipping them and adding picks. The Budget just doesn't seem to be there for that.

Avs haven't rebuilt like Tampa did because their scouts don't seem to have the same drafting success, especially in the later rounds. They did turn Downie into a likely franchise Goalie. Drafting/scouting has been key to why Detroit has yet to need to rebuild after the Yzerman generation, Lidstom generation, and now it looks like they are on a similar path as the Dats/Zett generation exits.

Florida, Edmonton, Buffalo, and even in a way Dallas will be the comparable teams to the Avs regarding rebuilding. I think the Avs are ahead of at least 2 of those teams in how things are shaping up, but what they do over the next 18 months will be a major factor in the results.

Honestly, the only one we can say we're clearly ahead of is Edmonton. We should be where Dallas and Florida are, but it's pretty clear we're a step behind. Buffalo has been rebuilding for way less time, and while we're better than them at the moment, they have a lot of great pieces and I wouldn't be surprised if they surpassed us in the next few years.

I think the issue is that we're seeing the growing pains of having a front office. Yes, it seems like it's getting better, but some of the moves they've made didn't pan out, and it's set us back in the rebuild. It's in the past so not going to bring up specifics, but in retrospect there are moves that would've made our team better.

I think a lot of us would be less worried if we didn't see glimpse of a bottom 5 team, but we see it more often than to our liking. I don't think advance stats tell the whole story, but they help shape the story and those really don't look favourable to us. The first year that Sakic + Roy took over things finally started looking up again. I'm not pinning the blame on them yet, but they better either hope that Bigras, Zadarov, and Rantanen all hit their ceilings or get close to them in the next few years or else we'll be in another retooling/rebuilding phase.

 

[the_fan]

The Avs really missed out on elite talent over the years. Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, McDavid. They picked the wrong years to finish bottom.

Now they stuck with middle of the pack talent which will keep them a bubble team. That means they won't finish dead last or bottom 3 to draft a top 3 pick, but they won't go far and even questionable if they'll make the playoffs. This team is in worse position than many people think. The core is just too streaky not enough consistency from Varlamov and up

 

[Foppa2118]

That's still 4 players.

6 with ROR/Zadorov and Barrie. 7 potentially with Pickard.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The Avs really missed out on elite talent over the years. Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, McDavid. They picked the wrong years to finish bottom.

Now they stuck with middle of the pack talent which will keep them a bubble team. That means they won't finish dead last or bottom 3 to draft a top 3 pick, but they won't go far and even questionable if they'll make the playoffs. This team is in worse position than many people think. The core is just too streaky not enough consistency from Varlamov and up

That's a bit over dramatic. The core is fine, they have good enough pieces there, it's how they fill out the rest of the team. Christ, Crosby isn't even consistent.

 

[dahrougem2]

That's a bit over dramatic. The core is fine, they have good enough pieces there, it's how they fill out the rest of the team. Christ, Crosby isn't even consistent.

I'm sorry, what?

 

[the_fan]

That's a bit over dramatic. The core is fine, they have good enough pieces there, it's how they fill out the rest of the team. Christ, Crosby isn't even consistent.

Crosby has always been a PPG+ player and even with a horrible slow start to this season he's at PPG+ now. How is that not consistent?

 

[tigervixxxen]

Calm down, for his standards. Not like he wasn't having issues under the last coaching staff. I'm saying everyone has ups and downs not saying he isn't elite. Sure would be nice if we got an elite player but there's only so many of them, that's no reason to just give up.

 

[the_fan]

I want to be the 1st one to be proven wrong, I hope this team will become a winner, but I just have that bad feeling that the core just isn't a top end talent and it is just too streaky for this team to take big steps forward. Duchene, MacKinnon have talent no doubt but they aren't a top end talent, I thought MacKinnon maybe would be that top guy, like Benn, Seguin level, but I'm starting to have my doubts, he's still pretty young so you'll never know, but so far I can't help but to have my doubts about the whole Avs core. There is nothing that suggests that the current core is enough for this team to ever be a contender

 

[FreshFitted67]

I know we're going through a rough stretch right now. However, this team has actually exceeded my expectations this season. I thought we were looking at a bottom 5 finish. But they found some success in December and January and now we're here. I don't think we'll make the playoffs but something tells me the pendulum could swing back to the successful side near the end of the season. A strong final push. That's one the thing the Avs know how to do.

The core is actually pretty good. Duchene, Mackinnon, Soderberg, Landeskog, Barrie, Varly, Pickard are all good. The most exciting thing about our chances for improving is that we have a really good 18 year old in the minors. Sometimes, one piece can change the chemistry and really improve a team. I hope Rantanen can do that. We have other things to look forward to as well... Zadorov is a a really talented player who really needs to work on his decision making. If someone can get a handle on him, we have another good piece. J.T. Compher could be a really good depth player. I still have hope for Bleackley. Bigras seems solid. EJ is still a good veteran.

We look bad right now... not because our players aren't talented.... but because the way we play is so unstructured and strange. Sometimes, it works out for us... If we get on a hot streak and a couple guys start believing in themselves and the goaltending stands on its head we win.... and the thing is we have players who are talented enough to do that.... But when we don't have that going we look REALLY bad.

So for 2017, if we're serious about trying to get better this is what I would like to see.
+Mikko Rantanen
+Kyle Okposo
+Chris Bigras (Full time)
+Nikita Zadorov (Full Time, but someone please coach him on decision making)
+Calvin Pickard (full time back up)

-Alex Tanguay
-Nate Guenin
-Andrew Bodnarchuk
-Reto Berra

Mack-Dutchy-Rantanen
Lando-Soda-Okposo
Iggy-Grigs-Comeau
Skille-Mitchell-Mcleod

EJ-Beauch
Holden-Barrie
Bigras-Zads
Redmond

Varly
Picks

I actually think that's pretty strong... and with guys like Compher, Greer, Beaudin, Bleackley, Geertsen, Wood, Meloche in the wings, maybe we can win in a couple years.... We need to draft well though. Sergachev, Nylander, McLeod, Rubtsov, Gauthier, Dubois, someone like that please.

*******edit: I'd also love to see another coach, but I know that's not happening any time soon and I do have a soft spot in my heart for Roy because he does try really hard and care about the team.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

That's still 4 players.

As Foppa mentioned with Barrie and ROR... how many players do you need to consider it a START? I'd love to know why you think it start in 2013. Because it got Mack and maybe Bigras?

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Okposo/whoever is going to be the interesting part. I'm pretty sure the rest happens, along with Wagner as the 13th forward. I really don't see much change coming from outside the organization.

Though I don't think Bodnarchuk is as likely to be leaving as most think he is. I could see Redmond leaving just as easily, or both leaving, or both staying. The #7 and #8 Dmen will depend on a lot. Does Zadorov and Bigras start in the NHL? Do we add an outsider to the mix on top of the kids, bumping Holden to the bench? Do we trade Holden in that case? Whats the deal with Stuart? Who is available for less than a million?

I could see them keeping Berra as the #3 as well, if his return is weak. But he is probably on this way out.

 

[the_fan]

One of the biggest problem is that Duchene, MacKinnon just don't seem to have that win mentality like the Hawks with Toews and Kane.

When this team loses which is often, seems like bunch of heartless players just skating around and not giving **** about winning.

Roy plays a big role and a lot of it is his fault when his team just don't care, but some of the fault should be given to the Avs top players. You can't rely on Soderberg and Comeau to win you games, star players have to be star players and a lot of the games they're not

 

[tigervixxxen]

As Foppa mentioned with Barrie and ROR... how many players do you need to consider it a START? I'd love to know why you think it start in 2013. Because it got Mack and maybe Bigras?

I said start a foundation and that they got some key pieces before that. You need more than a few players to build a contender. It's not like you get a couple core guys and then are set, if that was the case then they'd be set, which clearly they are not. They had to build a pipeline, prospect pool and depth from the ground up, that started in 2013.

 

[dahrougem2]

I said start a foundation and that they got some key pieces before that. You need more than a few players to build a contender. It's not like you get a couple core guys and then are set, if that was the case then they'd be set, which clearly they are not. They had to build a pipeline, prospect pool and depth from the ground up, that started in 2013.

It started in 2009 but failed from the depth perspective. They re-started it in 2013.

 

[tigervixxxen]

It started in 2009 but failed from the depth perspective. They re-started it in 2013.

Can't disagree there.

 

[the_fan]

I know we're going through a rough stretch right now. However, this team has actually exceeded my expectations this season. I thought we were looking at a bottom 5 finish. But they found some success in December and January and now we're here. I don't think we'll make the playoffs but something tells me the pendulum could swing back to the successful side near the end of the season. A strong final push. That's one the thing the Avs know how to do.

The core is actually pretty good. Duchene, Mackinnon, Soderberg, Landeskog, Barrie, Varly, Pickard are all good. The most exciting thing about our chances for improving is that we have a really good 18 year old in the minors. Sometimes, one piece can change the chemistry and really improve a team. I hope Rantanen can do that. We have other things to look forward to as well... Zadorov is a a really talented player who really needs to work on his decision making. If someone can get a handle on him, we have another good piece. J.T. Compher could be a really good depth player. I still have hope for Bleackley. Bigras seems solid. EJ is still a good veteran.

We look bad right now... not because our players aren't talented.... but because the way we play is so unstructured and strange. Sometimes, it works out for us... If we get on a hot streak and a couple guys start believing in themselves and the goaltending stands on its head we win.... and the thing is we have players who are talented enough to do that.... But when we don't have that going we look REALLY bad.

So for 2017, if we're serious about trying to get better this is what I would like to see.
+Mikko Rantanen
+Kyle Okposo
+Chris Bigras (Full time)
+Nikita Zadorov (Full Time, but someone please coach him on decision making)
+Calvin Pickard (full time back up)

-Alex Tanguay
-Nate Guenin
-Andrew Bodnarchuk
-Reto Berra

Mack-Dutchy-Rantanen
Lando-Soda-Okposo
Iggy-Grigs-Comeau
Skille-Mitchell-Mcleod

EJ-Beauch
Holden-Barrie
Bigras-Zads
Redmond

Varly
Picks

I actually think that's pretty strong... and with guys like Compher, Greer, Beaudin, Bleackley, Geertsen, Wood, Meloche in the wings, maybe we can win in a couple years.... We need to draft well though. Sergachev, Nylander, McLeod, Rubtsov, Gauthier, Dubois, someone like that please.

*******edit: I'd also love to see another coach, but I know that's not happening any time soon and I do have a soft spot in my heart for Roy because he does try really hard and care about the team.

If Soderberg is part of the core you're in trouble. He's a good player but he's more of a role player not a core and the problem is that this team has relied on players like Soderberg, Comeau etc...to win games and their star players have been average and inconsistent. Can't have success in this league that way

 

[Tommy Shelby]

Soda is a top-tier complimentary piece to a core though, so at least they did something right in that regard.

 

[Jarey Curry]

I don't think this curent Avs core is good enough to ever win them the cup or anything, they'll be lucky just to make the playoffs if even that. They have to make some big changes, trade or something.

Wait till Landy gets 26 and MacKinnon 24... Im sure someone in the blackhawks thread said something like you said, back when Kane and Toews were "kids"