GDT: Game 56: Canucks @ Avs | Tuesday, February 9th, 7pm MT | Ready to Riot

[CobraAcesS]

What I don't get is why other teams don't have the problems we do. Why are we shuffling Matt Duchene between every forward position? Why don't we have one line that can play together and consistently dominate? Why do our top 2 defensemen regularly play like #4 or #5 defensemen? Why can't we fill our roster gaps adequately with free agents or youngsters who can contribute regularly instead of depending on Comeau clones every year? I can't think of another team in the league that has the boneheaded issues we have, or a management team that seems to care as little.

While I agree with the first parts, you're last sentence is just false.

Edmonton, Toronto, Arizona, Ottawa, Montreal are all examples of teams who are worse off in terms of management or roster issues.

Did you see that Calgary just scratched their two leading scorers? Have you seen Minnesota's threads lately?

Lets not act like we're alone in fretting about our teams performance or roster decisions being made.

I don't mind discussing issues with our team, and even bringing up hypothesis about the failing veterans not exactly having a positive impact in the mentality of this team. However the burn down the house stuff is short sighted and nothing more than incoherent ranting.

 

[Balthazar]

What I don't get is why other teams don't have the problems we do.

Because other teams don't rely on a run 'n gun "system" where they are trying to win games while getting outplayed but capitalizing on their few chances. That's what we've been doing for 3 years.

 

[AvsGuy]

While I agree with the first parts, you're last sentence is just false.

Edmonton, Toronto, Arizona, Ottawa, Montreal are all examples of teams who are worse off in terms of management or roster issues.

Did you see that Calgary just scratched their two leading scorers? Have you seen Minnesota's threads lately?

Lets not act like we're alone in fretting about our teams performance or roster decisions being made.

I don't mind discussing issues with our team, and even bringing up hypothesis about the failing veterans not exactly having a positive impact in the mentality of this team. However the burn down the house stuff is short sighted and nothing more than incoherent ranting.

I'm not suggesting burning down the house or ranting incoherently. Calgary scratched their leading two scorers for an off-ice reason, not because they're playing badly. Minnesota is having issues for sure, several players are having inexplicably bad seasons and perhaps they need a new system too, but look at their depth - even with their combined 15 goals I'd take Niederreiter or Pominville over nearly every plug we've been trying to pass off as a top 6 winger. Edmonton is in a similar phase as us, and while we've floundered less, I can't help but think their coach/GM duo has them better positioned for the future than we are. Montreal needs big scorers, plain and simple.

We, on the other hand, have elite scorers who do not score at an elite level. We have great defensemen who do not play great defense. And our depth at most positions is just barely scraping by. Aside from Beauchemin, when did we last sign a depth player who had any sort of positive impact? Why do plenty of other teams make all of these things look so easy?

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

It's all Iginla's fault!!! if only he wasn't on the team everyone would be playing so much better. The energy levels would be higher. Guys like MacK would never get in a funk. Everyone would suddenly be able to play sound D for 60 minutes. My god this guy needs to go ASAP. Nothing but a locker room cancer that drags the entire team down and makes everyone play like crap. Hell, we need to kick him out of the country back to Canada. Just being within the boards of the United States will continue to have everyone else play bad and with little effort.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The Rebuild didn't start in 2005. It started in 2009, with the Duchene draft.

Really it started in 2013, that's when they actually bothered to start on a foundation. They did nothing for a decade, started getting some key pieces in 2009 but did nothing else.

It's all Iginla's fault!!! if only he wasn't on the team everyone would be playing so much better. The energy levels would be higher. Guys like MacK would never get in a funk. Everyone would suddenly be able to play sound D for 60 minutes. My god this guy needs to go ASAP. Nothing but a locker room cancer that drags the entire team down and makes everyone play like crap. Hell, we need to kick him out of the country back to Canada. Just being within the boards of the United States will continue to have everyone else play bad and with little effort.

That's clearly what I was not saying and I thought I made it clear. The Iginla situation IS a problem regardless of how its viewed.

I'm not suggesting burning down the house or ranting incoherently. Calgary scratched their leading two scorers for an off-ice reason, not because they're playing badly. Minnesota is having issues for sure, several players are having inexplicably bad seasons and perhaps they need a new system too, but look at their depth - even with their combined 15 goals I'd take Niederreiter or Pominville over nearly every plug we've been trying to pass off as a top 6 winger. Edmonton is in a similar phase as us, and while we've floundered less, I can't help but think their coach/GM duo has them better positioned for the future than we are. Montreal needs big scorers, plain and simple.

We, on the other hand, have elite scorers who do not score at an elite level. We have great defensemen who do not play great defense. And our depth at most positions is just barely scraping by. Aside from Beauchemin, when did we last sign a depth player who had any sort of positive impact? Why do plenty of other teams make all of these things look so easy?

?? Skille, Soderberg, Comeau have had positive impact. They actually made improvements in that area this season. I'm not sure what else they could have done in FA to have made a better impact. It's the fact that the team was so talent poor and lacking in depth to begin with. That's why there never was a true rebuild, there wasn't one player this team could move through the system and put them in a meaningful role.

 

[Avs91]

Because other teams don't rely on a run 'n gun "system" where they are trying to win games while getting outplayed but capitalizing on their few chances. That's what we've been doing for 3 years.

I agree with this. I don't think the Avs will win consistently until they ditch that 'system' for possession/passing/control of the puck.

I'm not a huge advanced stats guy, and I'm not saying they need to start dominating corsi/fenwick or w/e, but I've noticed some guys in the locker room discussing possession and so on when we were winning before the break. My question would be whether the players have realized this and Roy prefers not to play that way, or maybe no one realizes it yet...?

Anyway, think of all those years we battled the Red Wings, what was the one thing they ALWAYS were praised for? Great puck control and passing. Hmm.

 

[Balthazar]

Anyway, think of all those years we battled the Red Wings, what was the one thing they ALWAYS were praised for? Great puck control and passing. Hmm.

AKA Stanley cup winning teams. Still true today.

 

[Hesher]

The Avs lost to a team that was coming off 4 straight losses and used their back-up goalie. Nothing new there lol.

Seriously, where did the offense go? And how about some passion?

And I'd like to thank the NHL for messing up Gamecenter Live in the middle of the season. There's nothing better than waking up at 3AM only to find out that it's impossible to watch the game.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Really it started in 2013, that's when they actually bothered to start on a foundation. They did nothing for a decade, started getting some key pieces in 2009 but did nothing else.

That doesn't make any sense, they got more pieces in the 09 draft then any other draft year. It clearly started in 09.

 

[tigervixxxen]

That doesn't make any sense, they got more pieces in the 09 draft then any other draft year. It clearly started in 09.

A team isn't 3 players.

 

[henchman21]

They started a rebuild in 2009... it was rebooted in 2013. Management and coaching changes happened in 2013 after the other group had their shot.

 

[The Kingslayer]

Rycroft thinks they're leaving Rantanen in the AHL all year.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

In 2009 if somebody commented on how bad the Avs are I can promise you any fan would respond by saying they were in a rebuild and that's why.

The Avs never rebuilded the way other teams are so you can choose whatever year you want but things clearly started going completely downhill after Sakic's last injury. We never really sold off assets for picks and prospects like most rebuilding teams did but we drafted a franchise centre in 2009 and traded important players and picks to obtain our franchise goalie and #1 D while drafting our future captain all to go with that franchise centre in 2011. If you don't think that was the middle of a rebuild you should think there was no rebuild at all.

 

[ArWKo]

Sure blame the Corsi but yet a game last night where they outshoot and outpossess the other team and still lose doesn't exactly tell the whole story. Maybe it's PDO, it's gotta be the PDO if it's not Corsi.

The only outshot and outpossesed them in "all situations" (which shouldn't be a surprise considering the PP time we had). At even strength they were outshot 26-20 and outpossesed as well.

That said - this particular loss was not one that you look at the possession stats and see a game they clearly would have expected to lose, it was actually one of the better possession games we've had in a while.

This was one where they just couldn't score for the life of them.

That said, it doesn't change that they've been AWFUL in possession, even since before the ASG they were winning games that they were getting ridiculously outshot and outpossesed and the fact of the matter is that kind of play catches up to you because as soon as the goalie isn't bailing you out or the scoring dries up you start losing games, it's just not sustainable play.

 

[McMetal]

Frustrating. So frustrating. We had so many opportunities to gain points on those teams behind us, but we're wasting every opportunity. Please, for the love of god, call up Rantanen, Zadorov (when healthy) and Everberg.

Send down Guenin/Boyhccycocyck/Redmond. Also send down Martinsen.

Roll:

Grigorenko - MacKinnon - Duchene
Landeskog - Söderberg - Rantanen
Everberg/Tanguay - Mitchell - Comeau/Iginla
Mcleod/Tanguay/Everberg - Wagner - Comeau/Iginla

Tanguay and Iginla 3rd line if they have one of those special nights where they're actually useful.

Bigras 17min - EJ 24min
Zadorov 17min - Beauchemin 23min
Holden 17min - Barrie 22min
Nachos

When situation requires, use Beauchemin with EJ. In my eyes Bigras has proven he could handle a couple more minutes.

Just use best players please. Rantanen and Zadorov have proven enough in my eyes.

I want a dramatic reshuffle of the forward lines, myself.

Landy-Mackinnon-Rantanen
Grigo-Soderberg-Duchene
Iginla/Tanguay-Mitchell-Comeau
McLeod-Wagner-Skille/Marty

What we have is clearly not working lately. It's time to reunite Landy and Mackinnon now that Landy is playing well again, and move Comeau to a third line role where he belongs.

 

[Hesher]

One could say that the rebuild started the day the NHL implemented the salary cap. We just didn't know it yet.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

The rebuild started the moment the Avs were content running with Budaj-Raycroft in net. That's not even really debatable. I suppose someone could argue the Avs tried to hault the rebuild after Landeskog was drafted, but it would be a thin argument.

 

[tigervixxxen]

In 2009 if somebody commented on how bad the Avs are I can promise you any fan would respond by saying they were in a rebuild and that's why.

The Avs never rebuilded the way other teams are so you can choose whatever year you want but things clearly started going completely downhill after Sakic's last injury. We never really sold off assets for picks and prospects like most rebuilding teams did but we drafted a franchise centre in 2009 and traded important players and picks to obtain our franchise goalie and #1 D while drafting our future captain all to go with that franchise centre in 2011. If you don't think that was the middle of a rebuild you should think there was no rebuild at all.

What IS a rebuild then? Is it moving on to the next generation of core players? Ok then yes they started adding those starting in 2009 but to me it's much more than that, it's building the franchise and working towards a championship. They didn't stop spinning their wheels until 2013. They might not be on the right path now but at least they are on a path. I think we know we need just more than Varly, EJ, Barrie, Duchene and Landy to get anywhere.

If a rebuild is signaled by pulling the plug doesn't actually building have to be part of it too?

 

[Cousin Eddie]

What IS a rebuild then? Is it moving on to the next generation of core players? Ok then yes they started adding those starting in 2009 but to me it's much more than that, it's building the franchise and working towards a championship. They didn't stop spinning their wheels until 2013. They might not be on the right path now but at least they are on a path. I think we know we need just more than Varly, EJ, Barrie, Duchene and Landy to get anywhere.

For me a rebuild is selling off players who have a higher value to better teams and wouldn't be much value to our team once they improve due to age. It includes drafting high in consecutive years (hopefully with multiple picks in some rounds) and making it a priority to add young yet proven pieces in important places. You usually go through this phase with a home grown management group to give them an opportunity to see how they can do in the losing years but the odds are more likely that the staff be replaced by someone better once the team is coming out of the rebuild.

I feel the Avs did this pretty well spot on other than racking up draft picks because they didn't exactly have the pieces to do that. They tried though. Liles is a good example.

They drafted 3rd overall in 2009. Got a surprise good season in 2010 (which often happens during rebuilds) drafted high in 2011 and did what they had to do to get those cornerstone pieces in EJ and Varly. They developed their prospects well and we're ready to roll out in 2013 once their best players were hitting their primes and moved on to the new age management/coaching group. Ending up with Mackinnon was just gravy.

 

[henchman21]

The change in management and coaching also changed the organizational philosophy. IMO it was a reboot of the rebuild.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Developed which prospects well? They came into 2013 with Duchene, Landy, EJ, Varly all to show for their efforts in the previous 4 years. Barrie wasn't an established NHLer yet, though an asset from the prior regime and they had both ROR and Stastny who are now obviously both gone. Really for me this whole era is founded on basically starting over in 2013, though with a few nice pieces in tow, but the 2013 draft is going to be the "prime" of this team. With MacKinnon and finally adding Bigras, Zadorov and hopefully Compher, when that group is ready for prime time then this team will have been built and ready to do something. Hopefully by then they won't lose any more assets along the way.

 

[Tweaky]

Rather than just argue about when the Avs rebuild started, how about we discuss what a good rebuild looks like, and compare that to what the Avs have done. I propose using the Blackwawks as the benchmark. When did their rebuild start?

 

[henchman21]

Rather than just argue about when the Avs rebuild started, how about we discuss what a good rebuild looks like, and compare that to what the Avs have done. I propose using the Blackwawks as the benchmark. When did their rebuild start?

97 if you go off when they were terrible. They started gathering their core in 02/03, Tallon wasn't GM until 05... didn't make the playoffs until 08-09.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

The change in management and coaching also changed the organizational philosophy. IMO it was a reboot of the rebuild.

For me it's just how they rolled out into "it's time to start winning." Most teams how are switching into the winning part of the rebuild will switch the coaching/management. That's why you often see temporary home grown coaches used while those teams are so bad.

Developed which prospects well? They came into 2013 with Duchene, Landy, EJ, Varly all to show for their efforts in the previous 4 years. Barrie wasn't an established NHLer yet, though an asset from the prior regime and they had both ROR and Stastny who are now obviously both gone. Really for me this whole era is founded on basically starting over in 2013, though with a few nice pieces in tow, but the 2013 draft is going to be the "prime" of this team. With MacKinnon and finally adding Bigras, Zadorov and hopefully Compher, when that group is ready for prime time then this team will have been built and ready to do something. Hopefully by then they won't lose any more assets along the way.

Duchene, O'Reilly, Barrie, Landeskog, Elliott and Siemens. The last two don't look so great now but when they were rolling into the winning mentality they seemed to be doing very well. They also did a great job developing Shattenkirk/Stewart before turning them into EJ and Stastny was a home grown stud. They developed Mcginn well after trading two UFA's for him.

I just disagree with you saying they started over in 2013. They added new coaching and management which is very common in how teams come out of their rebuild and were fortunate to add their most valuable current player with the first overall pick and then struck gold with their 2nd rounder.

 

[henchman21]

For me it's just how they rolled out into "it's time to start winning." Most teams how are switching into the winning part of the rebuild will switch the coaching/management. That's why you often see temporary home grown coaches used while those teams are so bad.

Some changes are common, but they typically follow the same style of team that has been constructed... the Avs wanted to shift styles. That is the big factor to me. The type of player the Avs want now is night and day different than what they wanted in 2012.