GDT: Game 56: Canucks @ Avs | Tuesday, February 9th, 7pm MT | Ready to Riot

[Stories]

Rather than just argue about when the Avs rebuild started, how about we discuss what a good rebuild looks like, and compare that to what the Avs have done. I propose using the Blackwawks as the benchmark. When did their rebuild start?

Chicago has a few pieces that almost not other teams have, though. That is 2 cornerstone forwards, 2 cornerstone defensemen, and a very good coaching staff who play a very responsible system. Other pieces that contribute: incredible drafting and developing record. Guys who contribute when they're on entry-level contracts.

It's not really a secret to their success. Sometimes, teams just do a darn good job of identifying what to build around. Other times, there's some luck involved, too.

 

[The Kingslayer]

97 if you go off when they were terrible. They started gathering their core in 02/03, Tallon wasn't GM until 05... didn't make the playoffs until 08-09.

Didnt they make the playoffs in 97? I seem to recall us demoralizing Jeff Hackett in the playoffs. The model for a rebuild would be the Hawks doe.

 

[AvsGuy]

?? Skille, Soderberg, Comeau have had positive impact. They actually made improvements in that area this season. I'm not sure what else they could have done in FA to have made a better impact. It's the fact that the team was so talent poor and lacking in depth to begin with. That's why there never was a true rebuild, there wasn't one player this team could move through the system and put them in a meaningful role.

Soderberg I consider to be more of a trade and sign, but ok. Skille was a PTO who was on no one's radar. Comeau is a bottom 6 player being forced into a top 6 role. None of those are really what I'm talking about. The team is so talent poor and lacking in depth to begin with because year after year, we're passing on the opportunity to add quality players so that we can sign experiments who don't work or make one iota of difference.

 

[henchman21]

Didnt they make the playoffs in 97? I seem to recall us demoralizing Jeff Hackett in the playoffs. The model for a rebuild would be the Hawks doe.

That doesn't mean they were good... they got a decent start that year and stumbled into the playoffs. They were a bad hockey team.

It started with Roenick leaving... after that the Hawks were a bad team.

The best current rebuild example out there is between Florida, LA, and Tampa. Florida is the most debatable out there because of their lack of success, but that is going to change.

 

[RockLobster]

Rather than just argue about when the Avs rebuild started, how about we discuss what a good rebuild looks like, and compare that to what the Avs have done. I propose using the Blackwawks as the benchmark. When did their rebuild start?

I feel it's hard (but not impossible) to use Chicago as an example of how to properly rebuild in TODAY's NHL...at least without any context behind it. They were able to take advantage of some of those back-diving contracts before that loophole was closed. Imagine if Keith or Hossa hadn't done that? We see that Kane and Toews are each going to make 10.5M on their new deals, once the cap stops increasing (even with escalator), or even decreases, we'll see if they can keep it up.

 

[tigervixxxen]

For me it's just how they rolled out into "it's time to start winning." Most teams how are switching into the winning part of the rebuild will switch the coaching/management. That's why you often see temporary home grown coaches used while those teams are so bad.



Duchene, O'Reilly, Barrie, Landeskog, Elliott and Siemens. The last two don't look so great now but when they were rolling into the winning mentality they seemed to be doing very well. They also did a great job developing Shattenkirk/Stewart before turning them into EJ and Stastny was a home grown stud. They developed Mcginn well after trading two UFA's for him.

I just disagree with you saying they started over in 2013. They added new coaching and management which is very common in how teams come out of their rebuild and were fortunate to add their most valuable current player with the first overall pick and then struck gold with their 2nd rounder.

They dont even have those pieces anymore. Stuart, Shattenkirk, Stastny are gone. ROR, Elliott, McGinn are too. Siemens never helped the team. That's not building. Plus it took two assets to get EJ, two to get Zadorov, who isn't even helping the team right now.

They are only ready to win because the regime doesn't deem it acceptable to not go for the playoffs every year and not because they actually are ready to win. They refuse to put their best players on the roster, that right there should indicate how not ready to win they are.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

MacKinnon has the physical tools to be one of the scariest offensive players in the league. Hockey IQ-wise though, he has a long way to go to get there.

What is his potential? Point per game or more?

 

[InjuredChoker]

compare the number of picks, especially at the top of the draft, the avs had compared to other rebuilding teams. even the god dman hawks had way more picks and they have won cups after 2009.

picks on rounds 1-3 after 09
hawks: 23
avs: 16

 

[Cousin Eddie]

They dont even have those pieces anymore. Stuart, Shattenkirk, Stastny are gone. ROR, Elliott, McGinn are too. Siemens never helped the team. That's not building. Plus it took two assets to get EJ, two to get Zadorov, who isn't even helping the team right now.

They are only ready to win because the regime doesn't deem it acceptable to not go for the playoffs every year and not because they actually are ready to win. They refuse to put their best players on the roster, that right there should indicate how not ready to win they are.

They used those pieces and turned them into more core pieces. Rebuilding doesn't mean keeping hold to every single prospect you have or develop. Sometimes things just don't work out (O'Reilly.) but that doesn't take away that they were key pieces in the rebuild. Don't you think think drafting and developing Jack Johnson, Brayden Schenn and Wayne Simmonds played a key part in the Kings rebuild even though those players aren't around anymore?

You can criticize the way they rebuilt all you want but just because things didn't work out the way it did for some other teams doesn't mean the Avs weren't in rebuild mode in 2009-2013. They absolutely were. They just weren't good at it.

 

[Nihiliste]

compare the number of picks, especially at the top of the draft, the avs had compared to other rebuilding teams. even the god dman hawks had way more picks and they have won cups after 2009.

picks on rounds 1-3 after 09
hawks: 23
avs: 16

Symptom of the poor asset management which has plagued this team for years. It says a lot about why we are where we are when it comes to depth.

 

[tigervixxxen]

They used those pieces and turned them into more core pieces. Rebuilding doesn't mean keeping hold to every single prospect you have or develop. Sometimes things just don't work out (O'Reilly.) but that doesn't take away that they were key pieces in the rebuild. Don't you think think drafting and developing Jack Johnson, Brayden Schenn and Wayne Simmonds played a key part in the Kings rebuild even though those players aren't around anymore?

You can criticize the way they rebuilt all you want but just because things didn't work out the way it did for some other teams doesn't mean the Avs weren't in rebuild mode in 2009-2013. They absolutely were. They just weren't good at it.

That's my point, I'm not disagreeing they were in a rebuilding mode then, I'm saying they didn't accomplish a whole lot.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Symptom of the poor asset management which has plagued this team for years. It says a lot about why we are where we are when it comes to depth.

Yep, it's sad. The one time that old management tried to add extra picks they ended up trading a 2nd for two later picks. That 2nd they traded to turn into two was my MCM Tyler Toffoli

 

[Cousin Eddie]

That's my point, I'm not disagreeing they were in a rebuilding mode then, I'm saying they didn't accomplish a whole lot.

Well dear god, curse words times 1,000,000 I agree with you there . I thought you were saying they didn't start rebuilding until 2013 but if you mean doing it right I'm in full agreement.

 

[henchman21]

compare the number of picks, especially at the top of the draft, the avs had compared to other rebuilding teams. even the god dman hawks had way more picks and they have won cups after 2009.

picks on rounds 1-3 after 09
hawks: 23
avs: 16

On the flip side of this... number of established NHL players in those picks on the team:

Hawks: 1 (2 did though with Saad)
Avs: 2 (Pickard and Bigras could quickly increase this number)

 

[The Kingslayer]

Symptom of the poor asset management which has plagued this team for years. It says a lot about why we are where we are when it comes to depth.

True, thats why that old regime should have been released long before they were.

 

[ArWKo]

The other confounding thing with this team is going from Pracey to Hepple and how long it will take to feel that impact as well.

 

[Foppa2118]

compare the number of picks, especially at the top of the draft, the avs had compared to other rebuilding teams. even the god dman hawks had way more picks and they have won cups after 2009.

picks on rounds 1-3 after 09
hawks: 23
avs: 16

Symptom of the poor asset management which has plagued this team for years. It says a lot about why we are where we are when it comes to depth.

It's more a sign that the Hawks had to move a bunch of high end players for cap purposes and took high draft picks in return, than the Avs horrible asset management, who didn't have high end players that could have returned high picks while they were rebuilding.

 

[Foppa2118]

That's my point, I'm not disagreeing they were in a rebuilding mode then, I'm saying they didn't accomplish a whole lot.

I think they accomplished a fair amount in their rebuild during that time.

Duchene
ROR (allowed new mgmt to get Zadorov, Compher, etc)
Barrie
Pickard
Landy
EJ
Varly

 

[InjuredChoker]

It's more a sign that the Hawks had to move a bunch of high end players for cap purposes and took high draft picks in return, than the Avs horrible asset management, who didn't have high end players that could have returned high picks while they were rebuilding.

well yes but avs should've signed more players to 1-2 yr deals, give them big opportunities and then sell them. as they didn't have much of a veterans on their own to sell.

avs way of rebuilding under the previous management was very unique.

 

[Tweaky]

97 if you go off when they were terrible. They started gathering their core in 02/03, Tallon wasn't GM until 05... didn't make the playoffs until 08-09.

I was thinking Keith in '02 kicked it off. Then Seabrook, Crawford and Buff in '03. In '04, they got their first lottery pick: Barker...who turned into Leddy and Johnsson (who they screwed by not putting his name on the cup), plus Bolland, Bickell, and Brouwer...amongst a total of 17! picks.

2005 Draft got them our boy Skille, who amounted to very little there. And Hjalmarsson. Out of 12 picks.

2006 was Toews, 2007 was Kane, and in 2009-10 they won a cup. Oh, they signed old fart Hossa to a 12 year contract prior to that season as well.


Eight years, starting from mid-pack, with some leftovers from slightly worse times in the recent past (highest pick since the Avs moved was Bell at #8 in '98). Then going all the way down for 4 straight top 7 picks, followed by a #11, then a trip to the conference finals.

Condensed...they went from a #1 overall pick (winning the lottery from 5th worst record), to a Stanley Cup, in 3 years.

But a point was made about the cap-friendly contracts of the Hawks. Good point, but nothing was stopping the Avs from offering those, other than having almost nobody worth one.

 

[Tweaky]

well yes but avs should've signed more players to 1-2 yr deals, give them big opportunities and then sell them. as they didn't have much of a veterans on their own to sell.

avs way of rebuilding under the previous management was very flawed.

ftfy

 

[Avs44]

I think they accomplished a fair amount in their rebuild during that time.

Duchene
ROR (allowed new mgmt to get Zadorov, Compher, etc)
Barrie
Pickard
Landy
EJ
Varly

It's not that much in all honesty. We had to trade away valuable draft picks / former draft picks (Stewart, Shattenkirk, 1st) to get EJ and Varly, we used a 2nd and 3rd overall to get Landy and Duchene...the only real non-top picks (which are gimme's) and non-expensive trade pieces we got out of that rebuild were Barrie and ROR, and then we later traded one of them off to regain assets that we'd given away in the EJ trade, for example (I know that's not why, but that is the way the deal came down).


That was a pretty bad rebuild. We got decent enough top end talent out of it, but we needed a lot, lot more coming through the organization. Coming out of a rebuild with 7 good pieces (And Pickard has only entered that category recently) and practically nothing else of value...eugh.

 

[Tweaky]

I think we have to include the pick that turned into MacK as part of the previous regime...they were why the team was that bad. Not sure the pick would have been different...but the consensus at the time was Jones, which would not have been that wrong, given the centers we already had.

 

[Foppa2118]

It's not that much in all honesty. We had to trade away valuable draft picks / former draft picks (Stewart, Shattenkirk, 1st) to get EJ and Varly, we used a 2nd and 3rd overall to get Landy and Duchene...the only real non-top picks (which are gimme's) and non-expensive trade pieces we got out of that rebuild were Barrie and ROR, and then we later traded one of them off to regain assets that we'd given away in the EJ trade, for example (I know that's not why, but that is the way the deal came down).


That was a pretty bad rebuild. We got decent enough top end talent out of it, but we needed a lot, lot more coming through the organization. Coming out of a rebuild with 7 good pieces (And Pickard has only entered that category recently) and practically nothing else of value...eugh.

In four years, those are some pretty big pieces to add to a team. #1 goalie, #1D man, #1 and #2 centers, #1 winger and captain, #3 offensive D man, potential really good backup or starting goalie in the future.

They may not have brought in the depth that some of the best rebuilding teams did, but the point I was disagreeing with was that they didn't do a whole lot. The pieces they brought in from 2009-2013 are the biggest pieces on the team right now in 2016, aside from Nate.

 

[InjuredChoker]

In four years, those are some pretty big pieces to add to a team. #1 goalie, #1D man, #1 and #2 centers, #1 winger and captain, #3 offensive D man, potential really good backup or starting goalie in the future.

top end talent is nice but the depth is lacking.

that's why we're talking about trading for goddamn roman polak.