GDT: Game 41: Sharks @ Maple Leafs 4:00pm NBCSCA

TheBeard

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No one is under the impression that this is a playoff team. However, this team should not be a multiple 10 game losing streak team. This is not a team that should have a -90 goal differential halfway through the season.

The Sharks are a prime example of the "our expectations were low but holy f***" meme.

The funny thing is you keep saying Quinn wants effort, but then that he doesn't care about individual players he knows aren't going to be there. So does he want effort or not? You can't send a message to some whilst they see others not held to the same standard. The only message there is "if I hang around long enough, the same accountability isn't there".

What I would like to see:
- PK changes - personnel or structure (both would be better)
- DZ system changes
- Kunin 4th line or scratch. He shouldn't be any higher.
- Duclair/Hoffman scratched if there isn't improvement. Guschin brought up in their place to reward performance.
- Eklund not benched or demoted for a sole mistake.
- Ferraro scratched.
- Labanc given an opportunity with skilled players instead of 4th line dump and chase merchants.
Labanc is Terrible. He’s had like a half decade to salvage something and he’s regressing with each game. Scratching Ferraro for what, Vlasic? Who exactly are you putting in for him? Eklund isnt benched for a “sole mistake”. The dude has been subpar for the most part since the streak began. He’s frustrated and wants to make things happen and in the process he’s ignoring the other responsibilities of a forward. Don’t let him get away with bad habits now of all times. Apparently all he missed was two shifts so the hyperbole of his sitting is massive. Hoffman is who he is, but benching him isn’t gonna get you any sort of return. Kunin I could care less about but he seems to be the only forward that plays with any sort of edge. Bench him when Sturm comes back. I don’t care.

You’re gonna see the changes you want but it’s not gonna happen into after the deadline. You seem to think we have a plethora of talent just ready to get to the big club and go all Selanne out the gate. Who cares how bad we are? We’d be even more pissed off if the team was winning about 30% of the games and at 8-10 points ahead of three or four other teams. What does that accomplish?
 
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Cas

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No one is under the impression that this is a playoff team. However, this team should not be a multiple 10 game losing streak team. This is not a team that should have a -90 goal differential halfway through the season.

The Sharks are a prime example of the "our expectations were low but holy f***" meme.

The funny thing is you keep saying Quinn wants effort, but then that he doesn't care about individual players he knows aren't going to be there. So does he want effort or not? You can't send a message to some whilst they see others not held to the same standard. The only message there is "if I hang around long enough, the same accountability isn't there".

What I would like to see:
- PK changes - personnel or structure (both would be better)
- DZ system changes
- Kunin 4th line or scratch. He shouldn't be any higher.
- Duclair/Hoffman scratched if there isn't improvement. Guschin brought up in their place to reward performance.
- Eklund not benched or demoted for a sole mistake.
- Ferraro scratched.
- Labanc given an opportunity with skilled players instead of 4th line dump and chase merchants.
Oh I think this is a multiple 10-game losing streak team. My expectation remains between 10 and 15 wins on the season.

This is a team whose defensive corps is just awful. Abysmal. Ludicrously bad. Our best puck mover is Matt ******* Benning, who wouldn't start on a single playoff-capable team and who is now injured. The rest of the corps is incapable of reliably getting the puck out of the zone when under even the slightest amount of pressure - every single one of them. They're not good at keeping the opposing team out of the zone, they're terrible in the zone, they are abysmal at holding the offensive blue line, abysmal at passing the puck, all wimpy shots, no creativity, no vision, etc.

They're just collectively awful in every way - even the young guys who may have promise (Thrun and Okhotiuk and Emberson) belong in the AHL right now and are likely never going to be better than bottom pair/7D guys at their peaks.

The forwards aren't really any better. Hertl is good but not that good. Couture is a passenger - a very skilled passenger, but he needs linemates to create offense for him, and now he's missed half the season and there's no guarantee he's even playable when he comes back. Eklund is going to be a good player, but he's not that good yet. Zetterlund is a skilled goal scorer, but he shouldn't be a top six go-to guy.

Other than them? I guess Granlund is ok, had a great November but has been pretty bad otherwise. Hoffman is done and everyone should have known that. Duclair is barely passable - maybe he's just sad or maybe his injury has sapped his skills. Kunin belongs in the AHL. Sturm is an average 4C playing above his skill level (and now hurt). Barabanov has been excellent until this year but got hurt and now isn't doing much. Labanc is not an NHL player anymore - he does nothing special at all. Zadina belongs in Europe - we'd be better off with Dahlen back. Carpenter, Bailey, Smith - these guys have no business on an NHL roster at all.

Again - half our forward group doesn't belong in this league at all, and half the rest are bottom six filler.

Our goaltenders aren't actually anything special, either.

Of our roster, a majority just outright do not belong in this league. Most of the rest are playing a line or two above their skill level.

What kind of expectations should we have for a team of this level? Of course they're getting blown out. Of course they're losing more than three-quarters of their games.
 
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TheBeard

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We'll "build culture" when we start having the talent to win games. That's how it always works.

"Good culture" and "good talent" are synonymous.
So then just let the kids that are with the club and have a future do what they want since it doesn’t matter to you?

Everyone wants To blame Quinn and he no doubt deserves his share. But where the hell is Hertl? He’s supposed to be our leader, our guy up from to help. He was all smiley and happy when we won a few and now that we’re struggling he’s about as effective and visible as Sabourin.

What kind of expectations should we have for a team of this level? Of course they're getting blown out. Of course they're losing more than three-quarters of their games.
We all predicted a brutally bad season even before Logan broke his butthole, or whatever dumb thing he’s milking.
 

OrrNumber4

Registered User
Jul 25, 2002
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When you know you can play at you're best but are still probably going to lose, getting motivated and playing hard is difficult. But that's the job. Players need to be held accountable, and there should be a culture of expecting maximal effort on the ice.

I'm once again beating the deadest of horses. But ever since the Sutter era, it seems like the Sharks's culture has always lacked that mental toughness and ruthlessness necessary to win.

Maybe I was too critical of Quinn benching Duclair earlier this season. But Vlasic, Hoffman, and Labanc shouldn't be in the NHL.
 

coooldude

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Jul 25, 2007
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I'm surprised at how much everyone is concerned right now. Why? This team is really bad. We just played a lot of very good teams. It was a pretty predictable losing streak. There's nothing any of them can reasonably do. We're in hell ladies and gentlemen, and the only way out is through.

I predict we'll win 2 games out of the next 5. We have an easier schedule (league easiest back half). But because we are so bad, we are actually missing Benning and Sturm.

I think we will win more than 6 games in the last 41. As I posted in the "how many games will the sharks win" thread. But nothing we do matters right now, giving bords or Guschin ice time doesn't matter because neither of them are going to be much of anything, benching this or that veteran isn't going to do anything, firing Quinn isn't going to do anything.

We need high draft picks, and luck, and a lot of patience. Could be 2-4 more years of being this bad before we can start competing for 5th-10th worst team.
 

DG93

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Jun 29, 2010
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I'm surprised at how much everyone is concerned right now. Why? This team is really bad. We just played a lot of very good teams. It was a pretty predictable losing streak. There's nothing any of them can reasonably do. We're in hell ladies and gentlemen, and the only way out is through.

I predict we'll win 2 games out of the next 5. We have an easier schedule (league easiest back half). But because we are so bad, we are actually missing Benning and Sturm.

I think we will win more than 6 games in the last 41. As I posted in the "how many games will the sharks win" thread. But nothing we do matters right now, giving bords or Guschin ice time doesn't matter because neither of them are going to be much of anything, benching this or that veteran isn't going to do anything, firing Quinn isn't going to do anything.

We need high draft picks, and luck, and a lot of patience. Could be 2-4 more years of being this bad before we can start competing for 5th-10th worst team.
Regarding the last part, I think it all depends on how their drafting/development goes. In reality, you shouldn't be the 5th-10th worst team after drafting top-10 five times...I think that's why @Juxtaposer was rightfully ranting about the Ducks being the 3rd worst team in the league despite drafting Carlsson, Zegras, Mintyukov, Drysdale (Gauthier now), and McTavish. Assuming Smith and Eklund develop well and they land Celebrini (+ land two more top-10 picks in 2025 and 2026) + add quality veterans via FA/trades during the 2026 offseason, I'm hopeful that SJ won't be in the running for a bottom-10 finish in 2026-2027, but we'll see...
 

Hodge

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When Givani Smith returns, maybe Eklund should spend some time with the Barracuda?

1 point in last 8 games.
 
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TheBigDrunkPanda

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Oct 19, 2021
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Bailey has like six inches and 45 pounds on both of those guys and he uses it to be disruptive on the forecheck, extend plays, win puck battles, etc. Things Bordeleau and Gushchin simply do not do. Even a washed Mike Hoffman is more useful without the puck than Bordeleau or Gushchin. This is the fundamental reason why Bailey, Hoffman, Kunin, Carpenter, etc. continue to get NHL minutes while the one dimensional offensive wingers can't stick. Even the more veteran players who fit this description like Zadina and Labanc have seen their usage crater. Quinn is consistent with what he wants.
It must be some sort of weird lunar event I agree with you on this one lol. Gushchin is a Bure-esque floater without the Bure finish imo
 

coooldude

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Jul 25, 2007
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Regarding the last part, I think it all depends on how their drafting/development goes. In reality, you shouldn't be the 5th-10th worst team after drafting top-10 five times...I think that's why @Juxtaposer was rightfully ranting about the Ducks being the 3rd worst team in the league despite drafting Carlsson, Zegras, Mintyukov, Drysdale (Gauthier now), and McTavish. Assuming Smith and Eklund develop well and they land Celebrini (+ land two more top-10 picks in 2025 and 2026) + add quality veterans via FA/trades during the 2026 offseason, I'm hopeful that SJ won't be in the running for a bottom-10 finish in 2026-2027, but we'll see...
We'll see, and I hope you're right.

The Avs drafted top-10 7 times from 2009-2019. Cup in 2022.

The Pens drafted Top-5 5 times in a row starting 2002. Cups started in 2009.

The Lightning drafted top-10 5 years out of 6 from 2008. Cups started in 2019.

The Hawks drafted Top-10 7 times from 1998-2007. They drafted 11-15 in the other two years. Cups started in 2010.

All data from hockeydb.com
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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Sharks fans, having watched 2 straight Toronto San Jose games, I feel your pain. Understanding this rebuild is a massive undertaking, I appreciate this level of suffering is intended to bring better days and hopefully relatively soon...

Just curious from a GM'ing, franchise building perspective. Has there been a lot of debate among your fanbase about the direction to go this far into the super scorched earth plan? I get that Grier wants to draft top 2, 3, whatever for a couple of years at least but it's like he's built a team to finish comfortably 40th in a 32 team league. Is this something you have to shelter the kids away from, and do you see the Sharks adding more talent at a modest level in the offseason?
 

TheBeard

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Sharks fans, having watched 2 straight Toronto San Jose games, I feel your pain. Understanding this rebuild is a massive undertaking, I appreciate this level of suffering is intended to bring better days and hopefully relatively soon...

Just curious from a GM'ing, franchise building perspective. Has there been a lot of debate among your fanbase about the direction to go this far into the super scorched earth plan? I get that Grier wants to draft top 2, 3, whatever for a couple of years at least but it's like he's built a team to finish comfortably 40th in a 32 team league. Is this something you have to shelter the kids away from, and do you see the Sharks adding more talent at a modest level in the offseason?
It seems Grier's approach is patience. I imagine he'll go the same route next offseason as this (buy low candidates as hopeful deadline rentals), but based on Quinn's job and the fact the lineup is filled with old farts that wouldn't make anyone else's roster (not to mention a D-corp that really doesn't consist of anyone that's part of the plan longterm) it appears as if this is a 4-5 year plan.
 

LilLeeroy

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Dec 14, 2013
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Sharks fans, having watched 2 straight Toronto San Jose games, I feel your pain. Understanding this rebuild is a massive undertaking, I appreciate this level of suffering is intended to bring better days and hopefully relatively soon...

Just curious from a GM'ing, franchise building perspective. Has there been a lot of debate among your fanbase about the direction to go this far into the super scorched earth plan? I get that Grier wants to draft top 2, 3, whatever for a couple of years at least but it's like he's built a team to finish comfortably 40th in a 32 team league. Is this something you have to shelter the kids away from, and do you see the Sharks adding more talent at a modest level in the offseason?
Believe it or not but this team actually has less than 3 million dollars in cap space and sans a top 3 pick thanks to previous GM's incompetence.

Next year will be the first year we will finally have a bit of cap relief and some young guys like Mukhamadullin fully ready for large roles with the team.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
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Believe it or not but this team actually has less than 3 million dollars in cap space and sans a top 3 pick thanks to previous GM's incompetence.

Next year will be the first year we will finally have a bit of cap relief and some young guys like Mukhamadullin fully ready for large roles with the team.

Yeah, Doug Wilson really left some toxic sludge there at the end of the last competitive cycle. That's a lot of good money after bad.

Well, hopefully you get it right at the draft and can start importing some upgrades here and there with the additional cap space.
 
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Juxtaposer

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Sharks fans, having watched 2 straight Toronto San Jose games, I feel your pain. Understanding this rebuild is a massive undertaking, I appreciate this level of suffering is intended to bring better days and hopefully relatively soon...

Just curious from a GM'ing, franchise building perspective. Has there been a lot of debate among your fanbase about the direction to go this far into the super scorched earth plan? I get that Grier wants to draft top 2, 3, whatever for a couple of years at least but it's like he's built a team to finish comfortably 40th in a 32 team league. Is this something you have to shelter the kids away from, and do you see the Sharks adding more talent at a modest level in the offseason?
Listen, I appreciate the concern, but Leafs fans are in no position to criticize a scorched earth rebuild. Your rebuild would have been a complete failure if you hadn’t won the Matthews lottery.

Believe it or not, but the Sharks have been decimated by injuries. Our 2C (and second best player) hasn’t played a single game this season and our 3C has missed a ton of games. We’ve missed “key” mediocrity like Granlund, Barabanov, and Benning for big chunks of the season. This team isn’t as bad as you think.

I’m sure Grier will do something to improve the team this summer. I’m not worried.
 

hohosaregood

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Sharks fans, having watched 2 straight Toronto San Jose games, I feel your pain. Understanding this rebuild is a massive undertaking, I appreciate this level of suffering is intended to bring better days and hopefully relatively soon...

Just curious from a GM'ing, franchise building perspective. Has there been a lot of debate among your fanbase about the direction to go this far into the super scorched earth plan? I get that Grier wants to draft top 2, 3, whatever for a couple of years at least but it's like he's built a team to finish comfortably 40th in a 32 team league. Is this something you have to shelter the kids away from, and do you see the Sharks adding more talent at a modest level in the offseason?
This was always going to be a tough teardown and Grier's done a solid job over the last year. Grier came in with a dead prospect pool and only one real "sell-able" player which was Meier. The prospect pool is in the process of being overhauled with A LOT of turnover, and sold on Meier and Karlsson at as high of a value as you could realistically get for them. No crippling signings as of yet albeit some unimpressive depth signings. He inherited nothing and is squeezing blood out of a stone at a reasonable rate.
 

Jargon

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Listen, I appreciate the concern, but Leafs fans are in no position to criticize a scorched earth rebuild. Your rebuild would have been a complete failure if you hadn’t won the Matthews lottery.

Believe it or not, but the Sharks have been decimated by injuries. Our 2C (and second best player) hasn’t played a single game this season and our 3C has missed a ton of games. We’ve missed “key” mediocrity like Granlund, Barabanov, and Benning for big chunks of the season. This team isn’t as bad as you think.

I’m sure Grier will do something to improve the team this summer. I’m not worried.

Just came in to post this.

The lineup isn’t good, but Hertl - Couture - Granlund - Sturm down the middle as a general plan is LEAGUES better than Hertl - Granlund- Kunin?! - Carpenter down the middle.

I like what Grier is building but he can only do what is available to him and so far a lot of his moves have been very reasonable and smart. If we can win the lottery, things look a LOT brighter.
 

DG93

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Yeah, Doug Wilson really left some toxic sludge there at the end of the last competitive cycle. That's a lot of good money after bad.

Well, hopefully you get it right at the draft and can start importing some upgrades here and there with the additional cap space.
Thankfully a lot of $$ comes off after this season (Labanc, Simek, Lindblom, Hoffman, Duclair, Barabanov) or after next season (Burns' 2.7M retention cap hit, Granlund, Rutta, Sturm)...but there'll still be a good amount of bad cap left (Vlasic 7M x2 years, Ferraro 3.3M x2 years, Jones + Karlsson cap hits for a combined 3.2M x3 years). SJ won't be competitive the next 3 years anyway, so all of that will expire as they are starting to build an actual contender in 2027-2028, but still...oof
 
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coooldude

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Just curious from a GM'ing, franchise building perspective. Has there been a lot of debate among your fanbase about the direction to go this far into the super scorched earth plan? I get that Grier wants to draft top 2, 3, whatever for a couple of years at least but it's like he's built a team to finish comfortably 40th in a 32 team league. Is this something you have to shelter the kids away from, and do you see the Sharks adding more talent at a modest level in the offseason?
I think the fans that didn't like the plan have made themselves scarce from HFB by denial or avoidance. There are still fans on Reddit that seem to be trying to understand "why sharks bad, used to be good" or with old school "I think it's disgusting and dishonorable to lose and I won't stand for it" shouting at clouds.

Most people active here these days seem to be between begrudgingly on board and "should have blown it all up in 2020" enthusiastically on board.

And other responses since your post have answered the question. I think Grier built a bottom 3 team and then Couture lost half the season and the sharks are top of the league in games lost to injury. Hence 40th out of 32. And hell, it's still a dog fight with Chicago for best odds.
 

DG93

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Jun 29, 2010
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San Jose
I think the fans that didn't like the plan have made themselves scarce from HFB by denial or avoidance. There are still fans on Reddit that seem to be trying to understand "why sharks bad, used to be good" or with old school "I think it's disgusting and dishonorable to lose and I won't stand for it" shouting at clouds.

Most people active here these days seem to be between begrudgingly on board and "should have blown it all up in 2020" enthusiastically on board.

And other responses since your post have answered the question. I think Grier built a bottom 3 team and then Couture lost half the season and the sharks are top of the league in games lost to injury. Hence 40th out of 32. And hell, it's still a dog fight with Chicago for best odds.
It definitely seems like the Sharks' injury luck from last year has evened out this year, which is helpful for the tank.
 
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Pinkfloyd

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Oct 29, 2006
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Sharks fans, having watched 2 straight Toronto San Jose games, I feel your pain. Understanding this rebuild is a massive undertaking, I appreciate this level of suffering is intended to bring better days and hopefully relatively soon...

Just curious from a GM'ing, franchise building perspective. Has there been a lot of debate among your fanbase about the direction to go this far into the super scorched earth plan? I get that Grier wants to draft top 2, 3, whatever for a couple of years at least but it's like he's built a team to finish comfortably 40th in a 32 team league. Is this something you have to shelter the kids away from, and do you see the Sharks adding more talent at a modest level in the offseason?
They were a bad team when Grier took over. Then he told the vets he'll try and accommodate them if they wanted out. Burns wanted out and he obliged. Meier was an expiring RFA contract which was really the only guy they were able to extract significant value out of. Karlsson also wanted out but his value was in the toilet until he had his Norris campaign. Those have been the only guys that were really moved due to the rebuild and two of them were more about getting out of a long term deal more than returning value.

The Sharks aren't really in a position to make a splash in the offseason. Most premier free agents don't make it there and if they do, San Jose is far down the list of preferred locations. They have some assets to make a trade but given how deep the lack of talent goes, it won't make much of a difference. They need to stay patient and develop what they have for a while.
 

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