GDT: Game 26 | Columbus Blue Jackets @ Detroit Red Wings | 5:00 PM EST | FS-D

[RedWingsNow*]

Yes, but surely we should be outraged by something

You're only allowed to be outraged so much before they close your threads.

 

[SoupGuru]

You're only allowed to be outraged so much before they close your threads.

Oh
My
God

This, THIS is something to outraged about!

AAIIIEEEEEEEE!!!!!

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

This is pretty accurate.

It's frustrating when your favorite team is middle of the pack, but when 70% of the league is, it's hard to get too much in a fuss about it. Even after losing a bunch to Columbus.

In all seriousness, Red Wings fans should be very concerned. Their good players were all drafted in the 1990's or early 2000's.

Obviously, they haven't had a ton of high picks, but the fact that they just have treaded water

Look, even the Jackets - today Matt Calvert was a beast, he was a 6th round pick. Everyone touts the Red Wings scouting for finding Datsyuk and Zetterberg - that was over a decade ago? Who have they found since then?

Every year the Red Wings plan is to just surround the Zetterberg/Franzen/Datsyuk/Zetterberg core with marginal players and good coaching. Now, that core is old but you've had 10 years to draft and develop, and what do you have to show for it? Justin Abdelkater, Nik Kronwall, and Jimmy Howard?

Maybe Nyquvist and Tatar will be good, all accounts are they are solid prospects, but if I was a Wings fan I'd be really annoyed with management.

I don't see how there is an excuse to have a team full of garbage like Patrick Eaves, Drew Miller, Ian White, Tootoo, Bertuzzi, etc year after year. Why haven't the Wings drafted or developed anyone to play along those great guys they drafted a decade ago?

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Oh
My
God

This, THIS is something to outraged about!

AAIIIEEEEEEEE!!!!!

Careful now

 

[SoupGuru]

In all seriousness, Red Wings fans should be very concerned. Their good players were all drafted in the 1990's or early 2000's.

Obviously, they haven't had a ton of high picks, but the fact that they just have treaded water

Look, even the Jackets - today Matt Calvert was a beast, he was a 6th round pick. Everyone touts the Red Wings scouting for finding Datsyuk and Zetterberg - that was over a decade ago? Who have they found since then?

Every year the Red Wings plan is to just surround the Zetterberg/Franzen/Datsyuk/Zetterberg core with marginal players and good coaching. Now, that core is old but you've had 10 years to draft and develop, and what do you have to show for it? Justin Abdelkater, Nik Kronwall, and Jimmy Howard?

Maybe Nyquvist and Tatar will be good, all accounts are they are solid prospects, but if I was a Wings fan I'd be really annoyed with management.

I don't see how there is an excuse to have a team full of garbage like Patrick Eaves, Drew Miller, Ian White, Tootoo, Bertuzzi, etc year after year. Why haven't the Wings drafted or developed anyone to play along those great guys they drafted a decade ago?

You're asking why the Wings aren't as successful at growing their own talent as the Blue Jackets?

But to be sure, there are a few pieces missing. Holland has to balance long term goals with short term production and I'm not going to fault him too much (as some people are quick to do) until I get the whole story. He'll need to find some players to keep us competitive.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

You're only allowed to be outraged so much before they close your threads.

You complain about this way too much. Let it go.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

You complain about this way too much. Let it go.

Thanks for the concern, ArGarBarGar. You're a prince

 

[RedWingsNow*]

In all seriousness, Red Wings fans should be very concerned. Their good players were all drafted in the 1990's or early 2000's.

Obviously, they haven't had a ton of high picks, but the fact that they just have treaded water

Look, even the Jackets - today Matt Calvert was a beast, he was a 6th round pick. Everyone touts the Red Wings scouting for finding Datsyuk and Zetterberg - that was over a decade ago? Who have they found since then?

Every year the Red Wings plan is to just surround the Zetterberg/Franzen/Datsyuk/Zetterberg core with marginal players and good coaching. Now, that core is old but you've had 10 years to draft and develop, and what do you have to show for it? Justin Abdelkater, Nik Kronwall, and Jimmy Howard?

Maybe Nyquvist and Tatar will be good, all accounts are they are solid prospects, but if I was a Wings fan I'd be really annoyed with management.

I don't see how there is an excuse to have a team full of garbage like Patrick Eaves, Drew Miller, Ian White, Tootoo, Bertuzzi, etc year after year. Why haven't the Wings drafted or developed anyone to play along those great guys they drafted a decade ago?

I am a Red Wings fan and I am annoyed with management and the coaching staff.
It's annoying as hell to see garbage like Cleary play while Tatar gets 9 minutes a night or people like Miller playing while Nyquist sits in Grand Rapids.

It pisses me off that we spent $1.7m a year on a grinder who can't grind in Abdelkader. We go out and get a real energizer like Tootoo, and he plays 8 minutes a night

Now, I don't know if you're a BJs fan rubbing our nose in two losses or making sincere observations, but I don't care because your posts are right on the money.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

The irony of a guy called "IHeartZherdev" talking about draft picks is probably one of the more amusing things I've seen on this forum.

 

[VladTheImpaler]

In all seriousness, Red Wings fans should be very concerned. Their good players were all drafted in the 1990's or early 2000's.

Obviously, they haven't had a ton of high picks, but the fact that they just have treaded water

Look, even the Jackets - today Matt Calvert was a beast, he was a 6th round pick. Everyone touts the Red Wings scouting for finding Datsyuk and Zetterberg - that was over a decade ago? Who have they found since then?

Every year the Red Wings plan is to just surround the Zetterberg/Franzen/Datsyuk/Zetterberg core with marginal players and good coaching. Now, that core is old but you've had 10 years to draft and develop, and what do you have to show for it? Justin Abdelkater, Nik Kronwall, and Jimmy Howard?

Maybe Nyquvist and Tatar will be good, all accounts are they are solid prospects, but if I was a Wings fan I'd be really annoyed with management.

I don't see how there is an excuse to have a team full of garbage like Patrick Eaves, Drew Miller, Ian White, Tootoo, Bertuzzi, etc year after year. Why haven't the Wings drafted or developed anyone to play along those great guys they drafted a decade ago?

This may be the most misinformed/uninformed post I have ever seen on this web-site.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

Just GTFO BJ troll, you really don't want to get into an argument about bad management when your team is the poster boy for poor asset management.

First - Yes, I am a Jackets fan. I never said anything good about Jackets management. If you can get past the elitist attitude, and just read what I say, I think I do have a point....

The problem with the Wings is, outside of their star players, who are now in their mid 30's, they have no one else and have somehow not managed to draft and develop much around them.

Look at the Hawks - after they won the cup, they dismantled the roster and surrounded their core (Kane Toews Hossa Keith Seabrook) with an ENTIRELY different group. They lost Versteeg, Niemi, Ladd, Campbell, Bouwer, Kopecky. That is a really good supporting cast. Look at them now - Another reallly really solid supporting cast: Kruger, Frolik, Saad, Stalberg, Leddy, Oduya, Shaw, etc. And a lot of these guys are young (not just signing old guys and then losing them to injury)

That is what I'm saying about the Wings. Yes, they haven't had a top 10 pick. Fine. You can get plenty of good, strong role players through the draft or through trades - just look at what the Hawks are surround their core with. Or look at what the Kings have surrounded their core players...Jordan Nolan, Dwight King, Kyle Clifford - these guys weren't first round picks. You can also get them through trades and free agency. There are plenty of other examples of teams with good supporting casts.

Yet for whatever reason, the Wings every year put really terrible players around their core. Maybe Lidstrom was just that great and that's why they got away with it. And while I am coming at it from the perspective of someone who is not a fan, I'm pretty tired of hearing about how great the Wings are at drafting because they got Datsyuk in the 7th round like 15 years ago. What about the last 10?

Even the Jackets, the worst drafters in pro sports - Matt Calvert and Cam Atkinson were like 5 and 6th round picks by Scott Howson the year he took Filatov.

I look at the Wings roster and their most talented guys were drafted 10 years ago or were signed out of the swiss league over the summer.

Just imagine if your current core of (Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Franzen/Kronwall) was surrounding by what the Pens, or Hawks, or Kings put around their star players. Considering it is a top hockey market, I don't see what the excuse is for them not to have better guys on that roster. Also, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Franzen have smaller cap hits than guys like Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, Nash, Gaborik, etc so if anything, they should have an advantage when it comes to getting a good supporting cast

 

[Reality Check]

In all seriousness, Red Wings fans should be very concerned.

I agree..we just lost back-to-back games to Columbus

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

First - Yes, I am a Jackets fan. I never said anything good about Jackets management. If you can get past the elitist attitude, and just read what I say, I think I do have a point....

The problem with the Wings is, outside of their star players, who are now in their mid 30's, they have no one else and have somehow not managed to draft and develop much around them.

Look at the Hawks - after they won the cup, they dismantled the roster and surrounded their core (Kane Toews Hossa Keith Seabrook) with an ENTIRELY different group. They lost Versteeg, Niemi, Ladd, Campbell, Bouwer, Kopecky. That is a really good supporting cast. Look at them now - Another reallly really solid supporting cast: Kruger, Frolik, Saad, Stalberg, Leddy, Oduya, Shaw, etc. And a lot of these guys are young (not just signing old guys and then losing them to injury)

That is what I'm saying about the Wings. Yes, they haven't had a top 10 pick. Fine. You can get plenty of good, strong role players through the draft or through trades - just look at what the Hawks are surround their core with. Or look at what the Kings have surrounded their core players...Jordan Nolan, Dwight King, Kyle Clifford - these guys weren't first round picks. You can also get them through trades and free agency. There are plenty of other examples of teams with good supporting casts.

Yet for whatever reason, the Wings every year put really terrible players around their core. Maybe Lidstrom was just that great and that's why they got away with it. And while I am coming at it from the perspective of someone who is not a fan, I'm pretty tired of hearing about how great the Wings are at drafting because they got Datsyuk in the 7th round like 15 years ago. What about the last 10?

Even the Jackets, the worst drafters in pro sports - Matt Calvert and Cam Atkinson were like 5 and 6th round picks by Scott Howson the year he took Filatov.

I look at the Wings roster and their most talented guys were drafted 10 years ago or were signed out of the swiss league over the summer.

Just imagine if your current core of (Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Franzen/Kronwall) was surrounding by what the Pens, or Hawks, or Kings put around their star players. Considering it is a top hockey market, I don't see what the excuse is for them not to have better guys on that roster. Also, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Franzen have smaller cap hits than guys like Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, Nash, Gaborik, etc so if anything, they should have an advantage when it comes to getting a good supporting cast

You should probably go check out the Wings farm system before you get to carried away here. It is the best it has been since the late 80's/early 90's.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

Itt: a cbj fan named after Nikolai Zherdev has a more realistic view of the current wings than half of the "true fan" contingent.

We have a solid enough pool to recover, but only if Holland and Babs get their heads out of their *****.

 

[Laser Rayzor]

And for the record I'm fully aware of the mediocre state of the team, just responding to IheartZherdev's ridiculously misinformed claims that the Wings have failed to draft and develop anyone of importance since Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

. Now, that core is old but you've had 10 years to draft and develop, and what do you have to show for it? Justin Abdelkater, Nik Kronwall, and Jimmy Howard?

Why haven't the Wings drafted or developed anyone to play along those great guys they drafted a decade ago?

I'm pretty tired of hearing about how great the Wings are at drafting because they got Datsyuk in the 7th round like 15 years ago. What about the last 10

hey have no one else and have somehow not managed to draft and develop much around them.

I think that's enough to assume that he has zero knowledge of the prospect pool and probably knows very little about this team so with that, I'm done.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

You should probably go check out the Wings farm system before you get to carried away here. It is the best it has been since the late 80's/early 90's.

And yet, we're not establishing our youth. Helm and Abdelkader are the most recent draft picks to establish themselves as bonafide NHLers.

And Abdelkader is quickly disestablishing himself.

Kindl is a mistake from the press box, still. Emmerton hasn't established much. Mursak is toast in this organization.

We had hope for Axelsson and Larsson -- nothing came of it.

Our 2007 picks are only starting to get a chance to show what they've got.

Is our farm system great because we keep everyone down there for so long and never give them a chance to prove they don't belong?

Or is it legit?

 

[BlueJacket2]

Yesterday I sat around a few Detroit fans who made the trip to Cbus to the game. They were very classy and most (can't speak for you all) are respectful. Towards the end of the game, there was a Detroit fan stirring up the pot with a few of our fans (you know...busting out the "how many Stanley Cups do you have ahole??") Dude almost got into a fight in the stands, and two Detroit fans to my left jumped down two aisles to talk some sense into that fool. That was kinda cool. I was embarrassed that our fans gave in as well.

 

[Laser Rayzor]

And yet, we're not establishing our youth. Helm and Abdelkader are the most recent draft picks to establish themselves as bonafide NHLers.

And Abdelkader is quickly disestablishing himself.

Kindl is a mistake from the press box, still. Emmerton hasn't established much. Mursak is toast in this organization.

We had hope for Axelsson and Larsson -- nothing came of it.

Our 2007 picks are only starting to get a chance to show what they've got.

Is our farm system great because we keep everyone down there for so long and never give them a chance to prove they don't belong?

Or is it legit?

I know I'll be painted as a hopeless optimist for this but I think the situation you outlined (which I agree with) will change in the coming years. Smith is up for good, Andersson and Tatar are making a case for either staying up this year or starting up next year, GMKH is hinting at Nyquist being our deadline acquisition. Jarnkrok may get a serious look at camp next year so will Sheahan and Ferraro, worst case scenario is that some or all of those guys get their chance in 14-15, and that's not even discussing the back end.
We don't have the talent on this roster to justify keeping these guys down for too long, and I think (at least hope ) that Kenny sees that as well.

Although some of his moves confuse the hell out of me I still think Kenny isn't nearly as incompetent as people paint him to be. He knows he needs to start the youth transition sooner or later, however to the dismay of most of the people on this board (I'm looking at you Jman ) he chose later. That said I have no doubt in my mind that he will in fact start and finish a full transition.

 

[f1seb]

So I missed the game because I went out on my first bike ride of the year. Went on a 30 mile ride total, about halfway through it I got a flat and had to ride the reminder of 15 miles on the rim itself. As the sun went down it got bitterly cold and my hands were nearly frozen in the shape of the handle bars. After 4 hours of that madness I got home, and once my fingers thawed out I went online and checked the score.

I believe that after all that and such bad luck I still had more fun on my ride than if I stayed home and watched the game.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

And for the record I'm fully aware of the mediocre state of the team, just responding to IheartZherdev's ridiculously misinformed claims that the Wings have failed to draft and develop anyone of importance since Datsyuk and Zetterberg.


I think that's enough to assume that he has zero knowledge of the prospect pool and probably knows very little about this team so with that, I'm done.

That's not true - I'm not talking about the current prospect pool. Read my post. I'm talking about the previous decade - as in, not the guys developing or cracking the roster now, but why aren't there any good, solid, home grown players who have been on the roster for 3-5 years? Why does a team with such a good core (Zetterberg, Datsuk, Franzen, Kronwell) who was drafted over 10 years ago, not having decent talent and depth around it?

Why do they have to sign Tootoos, and Ian Whites, and Carlo Coliachavos, and Todd Bertuzzies, and still rely on Dan Cleary and Drew Miller and Patrick Eaves and Justin Abdelkater? These guys aren't good or reliable hockey players - and a franchise like Detroit certainly could do much better. I certainly question why the Wings don't have any depth around guys in their mid 30's. (that's not to say they don't have good prospects now, but saying where are the prospects from 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years ago that should have cracked the roster and contributed?

Other teams trade all the time for decent players for cheap - say, a Jiri Tlusty, a Viktor Stalberg, a Justin Williams, etc. You don't to have a top 10 pick to acquire some decent secondary scoring, or some guys in their 20's who can score in a secondary role.

 

[14ari13]

That's not true - I'm not talking about the current prospect pool. Read my post. I'm talking about the previous decade - as in, not the guys developing or cracking the roster now, but why aren't there any good, solid, home grown players who have been on the roster for 3-5 years? Why does a team with such a good core (Zetterberg, Datsuk, Franzen, Kronwell) who was drafted over 10 years ago, not having decent talent and depth around it?

Why do they have to sign Tootoos, and Ian Whites, and Carlo Coliachavos, and Todd Bertuzzies, and still rely on Dan Cleary and Drew Miller and Patrick Eaves and Justin Abdelkater? These guys aren't good or reliable hockey players - and a franchise like Detroit certainly could do much better. I certainly question why the Wings don't have any depth around guys in their mid 30's. (that's not to say they don't have good prospects now, but saying where are the prospects from 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years ago that should have cracked the roster and contributed?

Other teams trade all the time for decent players for cheap - say, a Jiri Tlusty, a Viktor Stalberg, a Justin Williams, etc. You don't to have a top 10 pick to acquire some decent secondary scoring, or some guys in their 20's who can score in a secondary role.

I am not sure I follow you.
It is not so easy to find players and it is not so easy to develop them either.

 

[obey86]

That's not true - I'm not talking about the current prospect pool. Read my post. I'm talking about the previous decade - as in, not the guys developing or cracking the roster now, but why aren't there any good, solid, home grown players who have been on the roster for 3-5 years? Why does a team with such a good core (Zetterberg, Datsuk, Franzen, Kronwell) who was drafted over 10 years ago, not having decent talent and depth around it?

Why do they have to sign Tootoos, and Ian Whites, and Carlo Coliachavos, and Todd Bertuzzies, and still rely on Dan Cleary and Drew Miller and Patrick Eaves and Justin Abdelkater? These guys aren't good or reliable hockey players - and a franchise like Detroit certainly could do much better. I certainly question why the Wings don't have any depth around guys in their mid 30's. (that's not to say they don't have good prospects now, but saying where are the prospects from 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years ago that should have cracked the roster and contributed?

Other teams trade all the time for decent players for cheap - say, a Jiri Tlusty, a Viktor Stalberg, a Justin Williams, etc. You don't to have a top 10 pick to acquire some decent secondary scoring, or some guys in their 20's who can score in a secondary role.

The large majority of the ****ing team is homegrown dude and it's been like that for a long time. The 6 man defensive lineup that has been starting most often lately is made up entirely of Red Wing draft picks....and 7 out of the top 9 forwards were Wing draft picks. The Wings are consistently year after year one of the teams with the highest percentage of drafted players on their roster.

Building a team isn't about just gathering "good players." It's about acquiring players that fit well together within the team structure and can play the roles the coach wants. And over the past decade there have been few who have been better at that than the Red Wings.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Well, if they are showcasing Kindl -- Cha-ching!
I thought he played well.

One of the few bright spots.

Z has been bad for something like 3 weeks. Seems so long ago when he just circled around the offensive zone protecting the puck on he's backhand.

Sure Dats played with Cleary and Abby but he hasn't been good either lately. Or as good as we need him to be. He was shooting a lot tonight, guess that was positive.

 

[DatsyukianDeke*]

That's not true - I'm not talking about the current prospect pool. Read my post. I'm talking about the previous decade - as in, not the guys developing or cracking the roster now, but why aren't there any good, solid, home grown players who have been on the roster for 3-5 years? Why does a team with such a good core (Zetterberg, Datsuk, Franzen, Kronwell) who was drafted over 10 years ago, not having decent talent and depth around it?

Why do they have to sign Tootoos, and Ian Whites, and Carlo Coliachavos, and Todd Bertuzzies, and still rely on Dan Cleary and Drew Miller and Patrick Eaves and Justin Abdelkater? These guys aren't good or reliable hockey players - and a franchise like Detroit certainly could do much better. I certainly question why the Wings don't have any depth around guys in their mid 30's. (that's not to say they don't have good prospects now, but saying where are the prospects from 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years ago that should have cracked the roster and contributed?

Other teams trade all the time for decent players for cheap - say, a Jiri Tlusty, a Viktor Stalberg, a Justin Williams, etc. You don't to have a top 10 pick to acquire some decent secondary scoring, or some guys in their 20's who can score in a secondary role.

The issue here is you don't understand the Wings model. You don't understand how the team is ran. It's easy for you to speak about draft picks when Blue Jackets have picked in the top 10 for a million years, Detroit always has late picks (last 22 years) yet they always find good players, that speaks volumes.

 

[PullHard]

Weird how we are able to accept putting down our own team but as soon as a Jackets fan comes in here and says the same thing in a slightly different way we all get up on our haunches about it

Yes I<3NZ, we are all upset that Babs and Holland haven't called up guys til now, and even still refuses to call up a guy who leads the AHL in scoring despite our obvious lack of depth in terms of scoring forwards. And the fact Smith is as green as he is at this point is extremely concerning. If we had Smith, Tatar and Nyquist with ~100 games of experience right now, your point would most likely seem moot I'd imagine. All fine players in their own right. Maybe not on Zetterberg or Datsyuk's level, but should all be good players.

And the majority of the fanbase outside of a vocal minority of Holland sheeps are all in agreement about this - give Tatar, Smith, Nyquist, etc. minutes over Cleary, Abby, Miller, etc. There is no need for those guys to try, and fail, at that. Let the young guys try, and fail, and then improve over time.