GDT: Game 23: Blue Jackets @ Coyotes - 6PM - FSAZ PLUS

[MIGs Dog]

I can feel the mounting apathy. I'll probably sputter out soon to harp no more. Go back to watching Chicago and New Jersey like I did before Phoenix got a team.

As a life-long Cubs fan I can say you gotta keep the faith. It'll happen one day, and then you can say you suffered through the bad years (decades?), and now you're enjoying the thrill of victory. (or maybe you'll die angry, sad, and frustrated. Life's not always fair. )

 

[Tom Polakis]

If we're going to show Tippett deference as if he's one of the best coaches in the league, I expect players to at least want to play for him and for him to get results, even with a roster that isn't great. I want to see the "amazing coach" premium. It's not there, and hasn't been for the past 3 or 4 seasons.

You are inadvertently making a great case for him being irrelevant and easy to change out.

Nothing inadvertent about it. You're confusing me with Tippett apologists. I've stated several times that he is not a great coach, and I wouldn't mind him being fired.

But a coaching change wouldn't matter, so why the endless second-guessing in the GDT's? This roster would be mired near last place under Scotty Bowman in his prime. The consensus in every summer thread on the main board had both the Coyotes forward and defensive lines (i.e. players) among the bottom three to five in the NHL. You were expecting different results?

 

[Spirit of Lindgren]

I was pulling for Tyler Gaudet last night.
It would be great for he to have a breakthrough game and he had two great looks, great shots last night that nearly hit the back of the net.
To think that was a number 2 goalie in goal for the Bluejackets last night and their number one already being considered a winner of the Vis.....(however you spell it) trophy..what a team.
I would be a STH no matter what, but boy oh boy I sure wish we'd start having some good news out there on the ice.

 

[XX]

But a coaching change wouldn't matter

People have given you plenty of examples as to why it would matter, even in the event it doesn't lead to an improvement in record.

This roster would be mired near last place under Scotty Bowman in his prime.

I really doubt that, considering Tippett had very weak teams in his early years but managed to extract every bit of performance he could out of them. That coach is past his expiration date.

The D is not bottom five, even if they play like it. The forwards would have more of a chance if the D got its **** together and they played a more skill based system. They are not the worst team in the league talent wise by miles, though you're forgiven if you've gotten that impression based on their play. That, again, goes back to coaching.

 

[SniperHF]

The consensus in every summer thread on the main board had both the Coyotes forward and defensive lines (i.e. players) among the bottom three to five in the NHL. You were expecting different results?

That was always flawed analysis then and still is. The roster isn't so different from the one last season on paper that managed to be 24th in the league points wise without Smith playing even remotely competently(or at all) most of the season. There's a lot of stuff going on besides that on an individual play basis I probably agree with you on but it's not relevant to how it was being discussed before the season.


For the coaching change mattering, I think it goes to 3 things and none of them have much to do with the results W/L on ice right now.

1. Is Tippett the best choice for developing the talent we have?

2. The point that was brought up in the thread during the first period: Tip goes out after last game and gives his post game about the team not doing the things they practiced. Then immediately in the game following that the team response is getting out shot by ridiculous margins.

3. And for myself it's mainly this: Why do we have to be the special snowflake market that lacks all accountability? I'm sick of it.

 

[rt]

Nothing inadvertent about it. You're confusing me with Tippett apologists. I've stated several times that he is not a great coach, and I wouldn't mind him being fired.

But a coaching change wouldn't matter, so why the endless second-guessing in the GDT's? This roster would be mired near last place under Scotty Bowman in his prime. The consensus in every summer thread on the main board had both the Coyotes forward and defensive lines (i.e. players) among the bottom three to five in the NHL. You were expecting different results?

It's not just about wins and losses.

 

[Tom Polakis]

Thanks for the replies, guys, particularly regarding it being about more than wins and losses.

Rather than persist, I'll bow out now, but not without making the obvious point that they could lose out, and he's not going anywhere for manifold reasons.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

It's not just about wins and losses.

Unless you get to the playoffs on style points, in the end its all about wins and losses.

We need a real shake up of this roster. A coaching change isn't feasible as has been discussed. It it was feasible it would be done as its much easier to change coaches than to change a GM's roster.

 

[Mosby]

I was pulling for Tyler Gaudet last night.
It would be great for he to have a breakthrough game and he had two great looks, great shots last night that nearly hit the back of the net.
To think that was a number 2 goalie in goal for the Bluejackets last night and their number one already being considered a winner of the Vis.....(however you spell it) trophy..what a team.
I would be a STH no matter what, but boy oh boy I sure wish we'd start having some good news out there on the ice.

Thought that was Gaudet's best NHL game yet. But man, his hands. He makes Boyd Gordon look like a 50 goal scorer.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

People have given you plenty of examples as to why it would matter, even in the event it doesn't lead to an improvement in record.




The D is not bottom five, even if they play like it. The forwards would have more of a chance if the D got its **** together and they played a more skill based system. They are not the worst team in the league talent wise by miles, though you're forgiven if you've gotten that impression based on their play. That, again, goes back to coaching.

I beg to differ. Fem, the defense is judged by their play, not by what they look like in still shots. They are a bottom 5 defense, with only a goalie playing out of his mind to keep our 8 defensemen from becoming the laughingstock of the league.

 

[XX]

I beg to differ. Fem, the defense is judged by their play, not by what they look like in still shots. They are a bottom 5 defense, with only a goalie playing out of his mind to keep our 8 defensemen from becoming the laughingstock of the league.

You beg to differ because you refuse to acknowledge the role of coaching as it pertains to the performance of players. Simple as that. It's really tiring.

 

[Mosby]

I still don't get the "Tipp can't develop" argument.

Which young player isn't coming along? Domi has improved. DeAngelo looks good. Dvo is getting minutes. Chych looks good. Gaudet looked good last night. Martinook has become something out of nothing. Same with Dauphin. Crouse had his best game last night and has filled a unique role. Tobi Rieder looks fantastic.

Duclair is the only one struggling. He's snakebit. He's got a sophomore slump going hard. Maybe some of that is on Tippett, but where's the responsibility on Duclair? I mean, Tippett gets none of the credit for the guys in the second paragraph but gets blamed 100% for Duke?

I'm not thrilled with our playing style (we're generally boring), but the reality is we're getting killed by inexperience. The young players are learning. They're coming along. It will get better. I think all but 6 of our games this year have been 1-goal games.

The better news is that our young players have generally been our better players, save for Smith and Vrbata. Shane Doan, while strong the last few games, just looks slow. Hanzal is injured or generally tentative. I don't know what McGinn is providing. Gogo is coming along, but slowly. OEL sucked through November. Is Connor Murphy trying to live up to his contract instead of playing? It's this group of players who really need to get going.

 

[XX]

I still don't get the "Tipp can't develop" argument.

Which young player isn't coming along? Domi has improved. DeAngelo looks good. Dvo is getting minutes. Chych looks good. Gaudet looked good last night. Martinook has become something out of nothing. Same with Dauphin. Crouse had his best game last night and has filled a unique role. Tobi Rieder looks fantastic.

Duclair is the only one struggling. He's snakebit. He's got a sophomore slump going hard. Maybe some of that is on Tippett, but where's the responsibility on Duclair? I mean, Tippett gets none of the credit for the guys in the second paragraph but gets blamed 100% for Duke?

Tippett doesn't get credit for Chychrun and DeAngelo for a variety of reasons, plus he is scratching them when it isn't earned. Domi does not look better. Duclair is obviously worse off. Dvorak has played a quiet game but he has been benched hard for a few mistakes while others get out of jail free. Crouse has one point in 19 games and his usage is terrible.

Rieder learned to be a two way player outside of this organization. Martinook improved in the minors, away from Tippett. They look good because they fit his system perfectly and are what he expects all players to be. I have no doubt that he has helped them improve in their time on the NHL roster because of that. They speak the same language, if you will.

The two best examples used in Tippett's favor basically had next to nothing to do with him in their formative years. He can only amplify the strengths of certain skillsets. He fails to cultivate skills. He is an old school "Here's the bar, now clear it" manager, when most of the world has moved on to new school thinking of "Let's play to your strengths and then work on your weaknesses."

Some people, to this day, give him credit for Turris, so I realize this is a losing battle.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

You beg to differ because you refuse to acknowledge the role of coaching as it pertains to the performance of players. Simple as that. It's really tiring.

... and you refuse to acknowledge that our heroes on the ice have any responsibility for their poor play. I see stupid decisions with and without the puck which cost us game after game. These split second decisions are not due to poor coaching, but to poor processing. Honestly, its okay with me if Tippett is sacked, but what I want is an overhaul of our players. I don't think that Hanzal, Duclair, OEL, Murphy and Stone should be on their way out. Keep Chychrun, DeAngelo, Schenn for size, and pick whoever of whose left for the 3rd pairing.

Yea, I want to trade OEL. We could get a true power forward for him, one, unlike Crouse, who has hands and can score.

 

[jacobhockey13]

I still don't get the "Tipp can't develop" argument.

Which young player isn't coming along? Domi has improved. DeAngelo looks good. Dvo is getting minutes. Chych looks good. Gaudet looked good last night. Martinook has become something out of nothing. Same with Dauphin. Crouse had his best game last night and has filled a unique role. Tobi Rieder looks fantastic.

Duclair is the only one struggling. He's snakebit. He's got a sophomore slump going hard. Maybe some of that is on Tippett, but where's the responsibility on Duclair? I mean, Tippett gets none of the credit for the guys in the second paragraph but gets blamed 100% for Duke?

I'm not thrilled with our playing style (we're generally boring), but the reality is we're getting killed by inexperience. The young players are learning. They're coming along. It will get better. I think all but 6 of our games this year have been 1-goal games.

The better news is that our young players have generally been our better players, save for Smith and Vrbata. Shane Doan, while strong the last few games, just looks slow. Hanzal is injured or generally tentative. I don't know what McGinn is providing. Gogo is coming along, but slowly. OEL sucked through November. Is Connor Murphy trying to live up to his contract instead of playing? It's this group of players who really need to get going.

I think most of the frustration with Tippet's development is how he teaches them to play. Our playing style is probably the thing that is most formative in these guys' developments. It's clear that Tippet doesn't like one-on-one takeons which is why I blame him for Domi and Duclair's stagnation.

I agree with rt and XX in regards to Crouse. He has been brilliant as a 19 year-old and played his role excellently but we ought to try to develop him as more than an excellent fourth liner.

There's not much encouragement of creativity. We cycle the puck as if that were the objective of the game rather than putting pucks in the net. I agree with you that he does a good job with bottom-six young forwards, but he doesn't know what to do with skill. I think having Duclair stay deep until zone exit (like all our forwards) actually hurts us more than it helps us defensively.

And also I agree that a lot of prospects before this have failed for us because they weren't that good. No blame for Tippet on that account. But with the undeniable talent some of our guys have now, he needs to do better.