GDT: Game 18: Avs @ Leafs | Tuesday, November 17th, 5:30pm MT | This is the Time

[Iceberg]

We miss John Mitchell.

 

[Bender]

Went to a bar to watch this one.

This team is so dam frustrating to follow. It's the best and worst roller coaster of all time, at the same time.

I go to Mexico for 5 days and they win all 3 games. I get excited and decide to watch the team again and then they lose to the TML... and PAP scores 2.

I mean I see some promising stuff but this team isn't a contender or a playoff team with its current build still. Iginla is so dam frustrating too. I sort of wish he'd waive to go somewhere else to free the spot up. He's basically just riding the boat of mediocrity filling a slot until he retires at this point.

Would you be available to go BACK to Mexico until oh say, end of March?

 

[Iceberg]

It was 4-1 with 10 minutes left!!!!! The game was NOT over!

wtf lol

Who else do you wanted him to play on the 2nd PP unit? He has to pick 2 from Comeau, McLeod, Skille, Wagner, Martinsen and Everberg.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

If Varly isn't healthy enough to start, Berra should play next game unless you want to completely destroy any confidence he's built this season by saying "Hey, we gave up 4 PP goals in a 5-1 loss and you had no help out there, but we're going with Pickard next game." He needs to play.

Also, god help us all vs Pittsburgh if tonight was any indication. Malkin calls out his team and proceeds to torch Minnesota for 4 points. He's angry, and angry Malkin is the best Malkin

This x100000000. Berra should play tomorrow night.

We should hire Guy Carbonneau or Stephane Yelle to fix iur PK.

Carbonneau used to put Michael Ryder on the PK and his reasoning was that because he's played so many PP minutes over the years he knows exactly where to be on the PK. Being a great PK'er in your day clearly doesn't make you a smart PK coach

 

[InjuredChoker]

Avs are burying Cliche and Bordeleau in AHL this year but that's probably because they are very bad and there are so many players that aren't waiver excempt so they don't have a choice.

noreau and redmond (to start the season) too.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Anybody know what's up with Everberg? Is he out of shape or something? When people were complaining about him first I just thought everyone had too high of expectations for him but over the last few games he just looked out of place on the ice. He's quite slow.

 

[trip trancid]

This whole budget vs non-budget team is semantic nonsense.

Should they spend so much on players like OReilly and other FAs that they can't afford to keep guys like MacKinnon and Barrie? I guess there's budget in a good sense and also one that implies cheap. And you know if they would have spent so much on players that they might lose even better players would draw even bigger criticism from these same clowns. But as for the term budget: I very much hope the Avs are budgeting as that's the sensible thing to do. Also, it's not as if they don't have some bad contracts on their roster. They just don't have as many as several other teams. So perhaps there's also some form of resentment for that.

The Avs have had somewhat of a timing problem, if that. Had they signed O'Reilly and Stastny, they also wouldn't likely have Iginla and Soderberg. I estimate the price difference to be a total of about 5 between the two sets. How does that affect MacKinnon, EJ, and Barrie? And sorry but MacKinnon has a much higher ceiling than Oreilly and Stastny. That alone is something to consider. Plus there's the matter of OReilly and Stastny not wanting to stay. That can't be conveniently forgotten.

But as for the Avs being a budget team: it's either a euphemism for saying they're cheap or a slanderous way of labeling them for being sensible. It's irresponsible to suggest it's not the latter at this point.

 

[shadow1]

Anybody know what's up with Everberg? Is he out of shape or something? When people were complaining about him first I just thought everyone had too high of expectations for him but over the last few games he just looked out of place on the ice. He's quite slow.

I do, he's a fourth liner who's never been good.

Not sarcasm. He's slow and an offensive black hole.

 

[Drij]

On the train ride home from the game.

In general I thought the Avs played well 5v5, especially in the first 2 periods. They had a lot of chanced around the net that should have been converted.

Special teams were just all kinds of awful. So many blown coverages on the PK , and they had a terrible time getting possession in the offensive zone on the PP.

Watching Guenin live really gives you a special appreciation for how bad he is. He is one of the worst defenseman I have ever seen defending against the rush. It looks like he's going to back right into the goalie sometimes by how much space he gives to the puck carrier.

Can't fault Berra for any of the goals. He made some spectacular saves.

Quite a few Avs fans there which was cool to see.

I was at the game and I wasn't impressed by any of the players

 

[ArWKo]

I'm not sure why people get so offended over the term "budget team" like it's inherently pejorative. There's nothing wrong with being a team on a budget if you are able to construct a winning team.

Like others have pointed out, for a while running now this team has been very high up on the list of most cap space (lot of this a product of sucking for a while then having lots of good players still on ELCs).

We had a single year where we were a cap team and now are back to having a good chunk of cap space. Yeah we need that space for Barrie and MacK when they get new contracts, but that's exactly what "budgeting" means. This isn't a team that will sign whoever they want then trade them off, buy them out, dump them in the minors or whatever else it takes to get them off the books and move onto the next year a la Chicago.

This is a team that has a structure in mind, is sticking to it, and is signing guys that will fit within their specific structure so that they have the room to do what they want in the future - i.e. - they have a budget.

I think that's all that "budget team" means - it doesn't mean a team that isn't willing to spend to the cap, they have in the past and probably will again soon when MacK and Barrie are up, it's simply a team that knows what they have to spend and looks to the future when handing out contracts and extensions instead of team that will spend willy-nilly and figure it out later via trades, buyout, etc.

 

[tigervixxxen]

No, there's certainly nothing wrong with being fiscally smart. I don't want to be a team that turns to buyouts and lopsided trades to get out of their mistakes. Generally though "budget team" is a negative because it means won't spend to win, that the Avs will forever toil at the bottom because they just spend to exist and won't ever do what it takes to win. There are teams like this in every sport other than probably the NFL. They are using it to say we won't keep our good players because the organization refuses to pay for them. That everyone is on a Barrie watch because of it. That's why it's a negative.

 

[RockLobster]

I'm not sure why people get so offended over the term "budget team" like it's inherently pejorative. There's nothing wrong with being a team on a budget if you are able to construct a winning team.

Like others have pointed out, for a while running now this team has been very high up on the list of most cap space (lot of this a product of sucking for a while then having lots of good players still on ELCs).

We had a single year where we were a cap team and now are back to having a good chunk of cap space. Yeah we need that space for Barrie and MacK when they get new contracts, but that's exactly what "budgeting" means. This isn't a team that will sign whoever they want then trade them off, buy them out, dump them in the minors or whatever else it takes to get them off the books and move onto the next year a la Chicago.

This is a team that has a structure in mind, is sticking to it, and is signing guys that will fit within their specific structure so that they have the room to do what they want in the future - i.e. - they have a budget.

I think that's all that "budget team" means - it doesn't mean a team that isn't willing to spend to the cap, they have in the past and probably will again soon when MacK and Barrie are up, it's simply a team that knows what they have to spend and looks to the future when handing out contracts and extensions instead of team that will spend willy-nilly and figure it out later via trades, buyout, etc.

And this is truly all well and fine, but these National Media Journalists don't mean "budget team" in the sense that you just thoroughly defined it as. Like TV has said, Bob is talking about the Avs being a "hard budget team" in terms of them maybe not re-signing Barrie. And he's not the only one. Apparently we're a "hard budget team" because we weren't willing to go to where Buffalo went to pay O'Reilly (I am excluding Stastny, because apparently we matched the AAV for him, just 1 year less than what STL paid him). The connotation that those people use it as is to say that the Avs are cheap and don't want to pay their players. When in fact, it's readily apparent that they're planning their money for the raises that are coming to Nathan MacKinnon and Tyson Barrie.

 

[ArWKo]

Well I also remember hearing a lot about how the Duchene and Landeskog contracts were the "model" for the team going forward - and while I'm pretty sure the front office never came out as said "we won't pay anyone more than we pay Duchene" that was what was bandied about both here and in the media, and I do wonder how much - if any truth there is to that.

If that's the gauge for how much any player this team signs gets, then that is a hard budget in the sense of who they will be able to lure into the organization.

Obviously this won't stand when we resign MacKinnon (and maybe Barrie gets over that mark too), but if Barrie does end up not signed long term here - and I don't think that happens - but if it does, then it will be hard to argue that the team isn't on some kind of hard budget when it comes to individual player contracts.

This is again fine if you can build a contending team around the players that fit into that budget, I'll just need to see if before I buy into it.


EDIT: Also Mirtle has a piece about Roy's role in the organization and how he should be on the hot seat (the media story du jour) wherein he also calls the Avs a "budget team" and the connotation is like you said RL that they're a "hard budget" - but he also mentions how the Avs are not big spenders in the front office either which is something we don't really discuss much around here.

Along with the narrative that the Avs are becoming Oilers 2.0 with a "good ol' boy" club in the front office it's something else to consider.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Yeah because we didn't bring in a big name exec, right? Even though adding in MacFarland should be a big change for them but let's forget about that.

And right, budgeting for the future is called being smart but nobody in the outside media is making this point. Its also funny then that the Avs get called out so much for overpaying free agents.

 

[Iceberg]

Yeah because we didn't bring in a big name exec, right? Even though adding in MacFarland should be a big change for them but let's forget about that.

And right, budgeting for the future is called being smart but nobody in the outside media is making this point. Its also funny then that the Avs get called out so much for overpaying free agents.

So, basically we suck no matter how you look at it.

 

[ArWKo]

Yeah because we didn't bring in a big name exec, right? Even though adding in MacFarland should be a big change for them but let's forget about that..

Did we? McFarland is a name, I wouldn't really call him a "big" name. Not to mention he game in to work under a guy (Sakic) who is an NHL exec who came into the job with zero executive experience. I'm not say Joe isn't or can't be great in his position - but it is a fair criticism that he's inexperienced in his position.

Yzerman is the obvious comparison to make here - he worked in the front office in Detroit and also worked as an exec for Canada at the Vancouver Olympics and has 4 years experience under his belt working with some great people in Detroit and Hockey Canada before getting the keys to a franchise in Tampa.

Frankly, I would have much preferred Sakic having taken a road like that, and yeah he was an "advisor" for a little while before officially coming on as an exec, but he's working with guys like Greg Sherman who I don't think is greatest guy to learn the ropes from. I would even have liked us to bring in an established guy who could play a role like Lou Lamoriello is doing now in Toronto, a guy who really knows the ropes and could advise Sakic as he learns on the job.

This isn't to disparage the job Sakic has done, the jury is still way out on that, but I'd be lying if I said it isn't a little concerning that instead of bringing in guys that have the NHL executive experience, we went with two heroes of the franchise, which I think makes it easier for a lot of people to swallow that lack of NHL executive experience because how much they love what Patty and Joe did as players.

I know Patty did it all in the QMJHL but obviously it's a lot different in junior than at the NHL level, and some people make the transition well, other don't - and most don't try to make that transition as a coach AND partial GM/exec/whatever it is that Roy's nebulous role is.

I do like the McFarland hire both for what McFarland specifically brings, and for it being a hire of a guy outside the organization. I would like to see them bring in another established executive with experience in this league to take away from some of Roy's role on that side of things and let him focus on the coaching side of things - he can of course still have lots of input, but I wonder how much double-duty wears him down, and also how much of what he knows from him time in the Q really translates to the NHL.

I'm sure this reads like I'm just being negative and attacking the Avs and that's not how I feel - I just think that we do need to look at this stuff critically, and I've also got my opinions on the matter as I've laid out. I'm not calling for anyone's head, I want Sakic and Roy to succeed, I'm just not sold on if their current model has the legs to get the franchise there, and I think bringing in another outsider with GM level experience at the NHL level could be a big boon for them to avoid an Oilers-like situation.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Yeah because we didn't bring in a big name exec, right? Even though adding in MacFarland should be a big change for them but let's forget about that.

And right, budgeting for the future is called being smart but nobody in the outside media is making this point. Its also funny then that the Avs get called out so much for overpaying free agents.

I agree. It's just smart. There's no point being like Rangers or Flyers.. At the end you will get into to trouble with your dead weight. Teams need to be really careful who they give their long-term contracts to. (No Clarkson's for us please..)

ROR @ 7,5 mil. No thanks. He's good player, but I rather pay that money to MacKinnon who will be better or maybe he is already.

 

[tigervixxxen]

What's wrong with Sherman? He has the experience so that's one guy. And right MacFarland wasn't an expensive name but someone that has a lot of experience and even more so was something different that that this org has done in a long time which is to bring in someone totally from the outside and put him in a management position. if you bring in a guy like Lou it is both for show and to do things his way, I don't think that is the right direction to go in either. Also, we collectively have had the opinion that its not the front office decisions that have been the problem in the last year or so, I do give them the time to see through the plan before forming a strong judgement of it.

 

[ArWKo]

Nothing is wrong with Sherman, but he's pretty clearly a "numbers" guy who can handle all the contract stuff, the legal-ese, etc - he isn't really regarded as a "hockey" guy - he made his way up as a financial guy.

And don't get me wrong, I would't have wanted to bring in Lou specifically - I'm not the biggest fan of his, but rather just bring in a guy with the NHL exec experience and chops who can be a guide/mentor for Sakic as he learns the ropes. I have no doubt Joe has the hockey acumen for the position, but I think there's more to being an NHL exec than just knowing hockey and having a guy in the organization that has been there, done that I think could help Joe out early in his GM career.

But yeah, I do really like bringing in McFarland and that encourages me that they will be willing to look outside of the organization which is what teams need to do - there's as much benefit to grooming guys who you can bring up in your own organization as there is finding guys from outside the organization who can bring in that breath of fresh air on occasion (sort of in the same way that you need to draft well, but also bring in the right FAs).

 

[dahrougem2]

I do, he's a fourth liner who's never been good.

Not sarcasm. He's slow and an offensive black hole.

The vast majority here realize that Everberg played quite well last season. This season he's struggling, but let's not act like he sucks because he's off to a slow start

 

[ArWKo]

The vast majority here realize that Everberg played quite well last season. This season he's struggling, but let's not act like he sucks because he's off to a slow start

It would definitely be a big help to the offensive if he found the groove he was in last season. Really liked what I saw from him then and I hope he can get back to it.

 

[Hesher]

It felt like I was watching a replay of the game against Florida. Decent play but atrocious special teams.

 

[shadow1]

The vast majority here realize that Everberg played quite well last season. This season he's struggling, but let's not act like he sucks because he's off to a slow start

I'm not. I didn't think he was good last season. He's a fourth liner, that's about it. Good defensively and good size but slow and no offensive ability.

 

[JLo217]

Would you be available to go BACK to Mexico until oh say, end of March?

If only. I might end up there again this week though to shoot the rest of the Baja 1000.

I wish I was still there. Playing with a 700 HP raptor was a lot better than being in 30 degree weather. And they were winning I guess.

 

[the_fan]

I was listening to the radio talking about the Avs and they were saying Avs struggles is on Roy period that as a coach he doesn't know how to teach players attention to details. The goals they give up are too easy in a league where scoring goals is hard.

That's 100% true. I said it myself before that the attention to even simple details is missing from this team and that's only the coaching to blame