Post-Game Talk: GAME #1: Canucks 5, Oilers 3 (Boeser x2, Horvat, Höglander, Gaudette)

[Tables of Stats]

Never seen someone argue so hard for empty net points.

I certainly wouldn’t be using them to evaluate players. Pearson is a shark with the net empty I was shocked he didn’t find a way to get a puck into it last night.

I don't especially care how Pearson gets his points as long as he keeps up his chemistry with Horvat and keeps scoring at a 1st line rate.

 

[WTG]

Do ENGs not ensure a team's victory?

That isn't his argument at all and it's a super unfair way of framing his argument.
The difference is scoring on a goaltender and not on a goaltender.
When you say "top-6 production" you usually mean that he scores at a top-6 rate against goaltenders. Pearson got 20% of his points last year on empty nets.

 

[Blue and Green]

Never seen someone argue so hard for empty net points.

I certainly wouldn’t be using them to evaluate players. Pearson is a shark with the net empty I was shocked he didn’t find a way to get a puck into it last night.

In 69 games last season Pearson had 35 points that did not involve an empty net. That's solid production for a second-line winger. Does his job defensively, can be used on the PK2 and PP2 units... what exactly is the problem? People are constantly criticizing the guy and for the life of me, I can't figure out why.

 

[F A N]

Did you watch the playoffs ? I’m not surprised. My daughter and I were remarking the same things to each other and then he scored.

I actually thought Gaudette in the playoffs was more "noticeable" in that he seemed to be trying very hard but was chasing the puck a bit and generally a half step behind.

 

[F A N]

In 69 games last season Pearson had 35 points that did not involve an empty net. That's solid production for a second-line winger. Does his job defensively, can be used on the PK2 and PP2 units... what exactly is the problem? People are constantly criticizing the guy and for the life of me, I can't figure out why.

Agreed. Pearson has been good as a Canuck from the get go. 30 goals 59 points in 89 regular season Canucks games and a mainstay on Horvat's wing.

 

[Nucker101]

The “3rd line” is basically deployed as a 4th line by Green so I’d temper expectations for production unless that starts to change.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

In 69 games last season Pearson had 35 points that did not involve an empty net. That's solid production for a second-line winger. Does his job defensively, can be used on the PK2 and PP2 units... what exactly is the problem? People are constantly criticizing the guy and for the life of me, I can't figure out why.

Exactly, a 2LW you are looking to score at a 0.50 ppg rate, and he has been doing just that. Add in defensive responsibility and who cares about a few ENPs putting him above his .50 ppg with a goalie in net?

 

[4Twenty]

In 69 games last season Pearson had 35 points that did not involve an empty net. That's solid production for a second-line winger. Does his job defensively, can be used on the PK2 and PP2 units... what exactly is the problem? People are constantly criticizing the guy and for the life of me, I can't figure out why.

I don’t feel like looking it up again but this guy had 6 goals and 0 assists in from Feb 1 to lockdown last year and was minus 10.

After game 2 vs StL he had 1+1 and minus 6 in 11.


I like to look at 5 on 5 production.


is 24 in 69 first line production? It’s 148th for nhl forwards so it’s 2nd line production. It’s less than Jake Virtanen for example.

 

[Peen]

In 69 games last season Pearson had 35 points that did not involve an empty net. That's solid production for a second-line winger. Does his job defensively, can be used on the PK2 and PP2 units... what exactly is the problem? People are constantly criticizing the guy and for the life of me, I can't figure out why.

I don’t think it’s criticism. It’s more just realistic approach to winning.

I think Pearson is not a play driver and instead is a good defensive passenger. I think of that like a 7th forward like Higgins was.

It’s not an insult. I am a bit fearful of re-signing Pearson for longer than two years and suggesting to trade him was a sell high mindset rather than trade him because he’s bad.

 

[4Twenty]

I don’t think it’s criticism. It’s more just realistic approach to winning.

I think Pearson is not a play driver and instead is a good defensive passenger. I think of that like a 7th forward like Higgins was.

It’s not an insult. I am a bit fearful of re-signing Pearson for longer than two years and suggesting to trade him was a sell high mindset rather than trade him because he’s bad.

Exactly. Toffoli was a first liner here. He’s playing on Montreal’s 3rd line.

Isn’t he going to be 29 soon?

I imagine he’s hoping to parlay his usage into a bigger contract we should be willing to offer.

 

[Tables of Stats]

I don’t feel like looking it up again but this guy had 6 goals and 0 assists in from Feb 1 to lockdown last year and was minus 10.

After game 2 vs StL he had 1+1 and minus 6 in 11.


I like to look at 5 on 5 production.


is 24 in 69 first line production? It’s 148th for nhl forwards so it’s 2nd line production. It’s less than Jake Virtanen for example.

A second liner went on a cold streak over a cherry-picked set of games some of which came after a months-long break and only 5-v-5 points count now because... You seem to be trying awfully hard to make Pearson seem worse than he is and I have no idea what your angle is.

 

[Blue and Green]

I don’t think it’s criticism. It’s more just realistic approach to winning.

I think Pearson is not a play driver and instead is a good defensive passenger. I think of that like a 7th forward like Higgins was.

It’s not an insult. I am a bit fearful of re-signing Pearson for longer than two years and suggesting to trade him was a sell high mindset rather than trade him because he’s bad.

He is targetted for criticism in a manner that isn't warranted. He's been worth what he's been paid since he arrived. Many of the same people who criticize Pearson also had a penchant for unfairly criticizing Leivo so I think there's a blind spot regarding players who aren't flashy skaters or puckhandlers but nonetheless are effective players. Canucks aren't a championship-calibre team so at this point I don't expect to have top-notchers at each position, and Pearson has done a competent job on the second line.

 

[4Twenty]

A second liner went on a cold streak over a cherry-picked set of games some of which came after a months-long break and only 5-v-5 points count now because... You seem to be trying awfully hard to make Pearson seem worse than he is and I have no idea what your angle is.

Whatever man. It was discussed regularly last year. His 5 on 5 production absolutely dried up.

keep loving empty points. Peace.

 

[4Twenty]

He is targetted for criticism in a manner that isn't warranted. He's been worth what he's been paid since he arrived. Many of the same people who criticize Pearson also had a penchant for unfairly criticizing Leivo so I think there's a blind spot regarding players who aren't flashy skaters or puckhandlers but nonetheless are effective players. Canucks aren't a championship-calibre team so at this point I don't expect to have top-notchers at each position, and Pearson has done a competent job on the second line.

Leivo was picked apart because he was 3rd liner who was utilized as if he was JT Miller when he arrived. His usage last year was more normal and he was really good in those minutes.

 

[Blue and Green]

Leivo was picked apart because he was 3rd liner who was utilized as if he was JT Miller when he arrived. His usage last year was more normal and he was really good in those minutes.

When did you come to that realization? Because I remember some of your posts about Leivo last season and what you've written here doesn't match up with those.

 

[4Twenty]

When did you come to that realization? Because I remember some of your posts about Leivo last season and what you've written here doesn't match up with those.

Who knows. Refresh my memory.

Point is the team is going to have to make tough decisions and let players go and the team cant keep giving out money and term to aging players.

Pearson does a fine enough job. I’m in no rush to extend him.

I think I was against the minutes Leivo received in 18/19 not 19/20 but if you remember them fair enough. I’d love to see a couple.

 

[Fatass]

Who knows. Refresh my memory.

Point is the team is going to have to make tough decisions and let players go and the team cant keep giving out money and term to aging players.

Pearson does a fine enough job. I’m in no rush to extend him.

I think I was against the minutes Leivo received in 18/19 not 19/20 but if you remember them fair enough. I’d love to see a couple.

Pearson is likely to get how much on his next contract? If he’s in for 3 plus million I’m wondering if Benning’s plan is to have Podkolzin (on his ELC) replacing (likely) the Pearson minutes?

 

[Regal]

Why are you cherry-picking stats like that? Isn't PP production just as important to a team's success as 5v5 play? Do ENGs not ensure a team's victory? Did you factor out every other plyers ENPs when running your numbers?

It's not cherry picking stats, this is how players are supposed to be analyzed, within their various roles. Total points is lazy analysis. I specifically was talking about Horvat's line, and Horvat's 5v5 play. He was good on the PP last year, and wasn't playing with Pearson on PP2, so that's irrelevant to the point I'm making that the team will be significantly better if the Horvat line can be more consistent 5v5 than it was last year. The PP was very good last year (4th best in the league), and should be very good again this year given the personnel, but the team was heavily reliant 5v5 on the Pettersson line last year and that needs to change if the team is going to get better.

As for Pearson, the fact that I used 5v5 points and P/60 means other players' empty net points were not included in the list. Pearson also led the entire league in empty net points so it's not as if he scored a normal percentage relative to others. He is a solid player who generally plays well with Bo, but statistically he's on the low end of top 6 production, and is pretty average in terms of defense and possession. He's generally fine in the top 6 next to Bo, but he should be the 3rd best player on that line not the 2nd best. My hope is that Hoglander can push him down to that.

 

[DonnyNucker]

In 69 games last season Pearson had 35 points that did not involve an empty net. That's solid production for a second-line winger. Does his job defensively, can be used on the PK2 and PP2 units... what exactly is the problem? People are constantly criticizing the guy and for the life of me, I can't figure out why.

100%. Someone with too much time on their hands (most posters) should adjust top 6 players production for empty net points and see where Pearson’s production slots in. I suspect it’s high end 2nd line production

 

[Peen]

He is targetted for criticism in a manner that isn't warranted. He's been worth what he's been paid since he arrived. Many of the same people who criticize Pearson also had a penchant for unfairly criticizing Leivo so I think there's a blind spot regarding players who aren't flashy skaters or puckhandlers but nonetheless are effective players. Canucks aren't a championship-calibre team so at this point I don't expect to have top-notchers at each position, and Pearson has done a competent job on the second line.

I was a big Leivo fan.

He was better than Pearson from 18-19 to 19-20 when healthy.

To me, Leivo was also a 7th forward. Made pennies and could play anywhere in a pinch.

Imagine the team this year with Leivo and Toffoli. Would only need a 3rd line center to be a really really good team.

 

[4Twenty]

Nobody is even really criticizing Pearson. One dude outrageously called him to be producing like a first liner. Then people added the context to that claim with empty net points and scoring rates.

He’s a tweener who needs strong line mates and has good chemistry with Bo.

Made a nice play last night on a dreadful defensive read by Larsson.

 

[Regal]

I don’t think it’s criticism. It’s more just realistic approach to winning.

I think Pearson is not a play driver and instead is a good defensive passenger. I think of that like a 7th forward like Higgins was.

It’s not an insult. I am a bit fearful of re-signing Pearson for longer than two years and suggesting to trade him was a sell high mindset rather than trade him because he’s bad.

Exactly. My post was literally about how this team is significantly better when Horvat's line is playing well 5v5 and hopefully Hoglander can make it more consistent since that winger spot was a revolving door last year and Pearson is more of a tweener level forward (ie, he's not going to make the line go if Horvat isn't on his game), and I get criticized for not praising empty net points. Pearson's been a solid enough player on this team and I'm glad he's here but if anyone thinks he's an ideal 5th forward, they're fooling themselves.

 

[4Twenty]

I was a big Leivo fan.

He was better than Pearson from 18-19 to 19-20 when healthy.

To me, Leivo was also a 7th forward. Made pennies and could play anywhere in a pinch.

Imagine the team this year with Leivo and Toffoli. Would only need a 3rd line center to be a really really good team.

That’s not really Pearson’s fault though.

Ideally you have all 3 and you don’t have all of Eriksson, Baertschi, Spooner, Beagle, Sutter, and Roussel on the books. *and Ferland

It’s going to be a strange season because they only have to be better than 3 teams but it would be negligent to make any huge decisions based on 6 opponents. As fans it’ll be hard to actually place where the fit in the 31 team mix and while that doesn’t matter for this season it will matter moving forward.

 

[Blue and Green]

I was a big Leivo fan.

He was better than Pearson from 18-19 to 19-20 when healthy.

To me, Leivo was also a 7th forward. Made pennies and could play anywhere in a pinch.

Imagine the team this year with Leivo and Toffoli. Would only need a 3rd line center to be a really really good team.

I was also a Leivo fan and said he signed a bargain contract in summer 2019 whereas many called it an overpayment. I don't think Leivo was better than Pearson. When Leivo played up the lineup his limitations showed. I considered Leivo to be a good 3rd-liner whose skills are getting stretched a bit on the 2nd line, whereas Pearson has enough just offensive chops to be basically competent on the 2nd line. For what Pearson is paid he's fine.

 

[Blue and Green]

Here's the Pearson-Leivo thread from last season.

Joshua Leivo & Tanner Pearson Be Better Or Get Waived!