Future of Leafs D

[mydnyte]

Only downfall with Chiarot is that he’s another left hand defenceman which would potentially only leave us with Liljegren being a righty.

Brodie prefers the right, and Dermott is also good on the right. not sure if Chiarot plays the right though, because ideally, you'd want to pair him with Rielly as some stay at home muscle, or with Muzzin as a pure shutdown line ...could also be the bottom pair anchor with Lil/Dermott, depending on which would move up to the 2nd pair

 

[Buds17]

Not sure about what to make of Muzzin's game defensively. He at least is still bringing it offensively, and that is increasingly important with Sandin currently out of the lineup. Holl needs to be solid defensively since that will be the bread and butter of his game.

The team will likely have to make do and adjust the pairings when needed for the time being. Can only expect so much from Rubins at this point when he's just two games into his NHL career. Sandin's return will go a long way in seeing the minutes being better distributed across the blueline. Although to the lesser extent, Dermott's return should also help in that regard.

 

[TMLAM34]

Severson would be a good target
or maybe something big like Marner for Klingberg ++

Klingberg is a UFA after this year. Apparently he wants his new contract starting with a salary figure of 8 million also…

 

[Fogelhund]

once Mik is ready, i'd offer Holl and Engvall to MTL for Chiarot ...though, someone will likely offer a 1st for him as a rental (just hope it isnt us)

He's not coming here.

 

[meefer]

To be clear, I'm not a fan of the Muzzin/Holl pairing this year. But, the screaming about both having lost everything that made them a quality shutdown pairing last year...really? They may be less than they were, but that doesn't mean they are trash. It suggests the the team needs to adapt. Thankfully, Sandin and Liljegren are trending in a positive way. Dermott, who has developed less than I'd hoped is still an option and better than most in his 6/7 D position (as I see it at this time). Put Sandin with one of Dermott or Holl, try Liljegren with Muzz and lets see what we have. Don't knee jerk. If you can upgrade, sure, but we've got 7 D who I think can play at an NHL level, that's important, especially in the playoffs. If Rubin proves to be an 8th D who can manage minutes, we're ahead of the game. 25-30 games does not make a season. Unless there is an obvious upside, relax.

 

[ToneDog]

Dubas has to find a better than Bogozian type dman to replace Holl. At this time I am not bullish on going all in if the SC goes through Tampa and Miami.

 

[zeke]

To be clear, I'm not a fan of the Muzzin/Holl pairing this year. But, the screaming about both having lost everything that made them a quality shutdown pairing last year...really? They may be less than they were, but that doesn't mean they are trash. It suggests the the team needs to adapt. Thankfully, Sandin and Liljegren are trending in a positive way. Dermott, who has developed less than I'd hoped is still an option and better than most in his 6/7 D position (as I see it at this time). Put Sandin with one of Dermott or Holl, try Liljegren with Muzz and lets see what we have. Don't knee jerk. If you can upgrade, sure, but we've got 7 D who I think can play at an NHL level, that's important, especially in the playoffs. If Rubin proves to be an 8th D who can manage minutes, we're ahead of the game. 25-30 games does not make a season. Unless there is an obvious upside, relax.

yep yep yep.

 

[Magic Man]

Get rid of Holl first please. He's one of the worst D-men I've seen in a loooong time. I dunno wtf happened to this guy. I'd still like to hold on to Muzzin, he's a big physical D man. He hasn't been good this year but I still believe he can turn it around.

Rielly - Brodie
Sandin - Lily
Muzzin - *Manson (make it happen Dubas)

And you can play around with the bottom 2 pairings, swap Lily/Manson so you have some mobility and physicality on every pairing.

Replacing Holl with Manson does seem to almost perfect the defense core. I just worry about his price to acquire (1st+) and his price to retain. Is there enough in the bank to give Manson a contract and what would that contract even look like. If they can't re-sign him is he worth that 1st rd. pick? Holl has another year at 2M, he has that going for him.

 

[Fogelhund]

Replacing Holl with Manson does seem to almost perfect the defense core. I just worry about his price to acquire (1st+) and his price to retain. Is there enough in the bank to give Manson a contract and what would that contract even look like. If they can't re-sign him is he worth that 1st rd. pick? Holl has another year at 2M, he has that going for him.

I really don't know what Manson would want on his next contract. He hasn't really earned another $4.1 mil deal, but then... how much lower? $2.5? Probably $3 mil.. if it's a three year deal, which has it's risks.

Unquestionably, one of Ritchie, or Kerfoot would have to be gone.

 

[meefer]

Get rid of Holl first please. He's one of the worst D-men I've seen in a loooong time. I dunno wtf happened to this guy. I'd still like to hold on to Muzzin, he's a big physical D man. He hasn't been good this year but I still believe he can turn it around.

Rielly - Brodie
Sandin - Lily
Muzzin - *Manson (make it happen Dubas)

And you can play around with the bottom 2 pairings, swap Lily/Manson so you have some mobility and physicality on every pairing.

If Justin Holl is one of the worst Dmen you've seen in a long time, I question the length of time you've been watching the game, or whether you're influenced by recency bias. You question Muzzin this year, but give him the benefit of the doubt. Why not Holl? He's not played well, but last year he did play well. Are you suggesting he's lost it all? I find that rarely happens. Move him away from Muzzin, put him on the 3rd pairing, give him a rest, but let's not lose a player who has proven to be an NHL player, that's a valuable player to have, you don't toss that aside for a 4th and a cup of coffee.

 

[AvroArrow]

If Justin Holl is one of the worst Dmen you've seen in a long time, I question the length of time you've been watching the game, or whether you're influenced by recency bias. You question Muzzin this year, but give him the benefit of the doubt. Why not Holl? He's not played well, but last year he did play well. Are you suggesting he's lost it all? I find that rarely happens. Move him away from Muzzin, put him on the 3rd pairing, give him a rest, but let's not lose a player who has proven to be an NHL player, that's a valuable player to have, you don't toss that aside for a 4th and a cup of coffee.

Holl just looks absolutely atrocious on a nightly basis. Muzzin has been meh, some bad games some decent ones too. Holl has not proven to be a good NHL player at all. He was decent last year but looks like trash right now. Muzzin gets a pass because half the time he's stuck trying to cover up Holls mistake, whether its a stupid pinch or just a bad turnover. I've been watching hockey properly for about 20 years, this years Holl is easily one of the worst D-men I have ever seen. As a leaf fan, I hope he plays well but he disappoints more and more with each game played. Lebda was the worst I've ever seen, Holl right now might even be worse than Ceci was.

 

[meefer]

Holl just looks absolutely atrocious on a nightly basis. Muzzin has been meh, some bad games some decent ones too. Holl has not proven to be a good NHL player at all. He was decent last year but looks like trash right now. Muzzin gets a pass because half the time he's stuck trying to cover up Holls mistake, whether its a stupid pinch or just a bad turnover. I've been watching hockey properly for about 20 years, this years Holl is easily one of the worst D-men I have ever seen. As a leaf fan, I hope he plays well but he disappoints more and more with each game played. Lebda was the worst I've ever seen, Holl right now might even be worse than Ceci was.

One, you're contradicting yourself when you say Holl has not proven to be a good NHL player, while next saying he was decent last year.

Two, congrats on 20 years, you're only 40 years behind me. Who makes that type of comment ffs?

 

[AvroArrow]

One, you're contradicting yourself when you say Holl has not proven to be a good NHL player, while next saying he was decent last year.

Two, congrats on 20 years, you're only 40 years behind me. Who makes that type of comment ffs?

#1 I'm not contradicting myself. If you read carefully I said he was decent, not good. There is a difference between being decent and being good.

#2 you made this comment "I question the length of time you've been watching the game" so I replied with, I been watching for 20 years, since you seemed so curious about it.

Relax with the condescending BS bud. You don't have to agree with my take on Holl and that's fine, but don't make snarky comments and then get your feelings hurt when people to reply to them. Holl has been absolutely atrocious this year, and its a 20+ game sample size, not a small sample.


"You're only 40 years behind me" You'd think after watching hockey for 60 years you'd be able to tell the difference between a good and a bad d-man.

 

[Menzinger]

Muzzins struggles have been overstated. His minutes away from Holl this season have been fine. Imo he's earned the benefit of the doubt

 

[Menzinger]

Dubas doesn't play like that.

Mirtle has hinted/suggested that from the time of the Muzzin signing that there was a decent chance he'd finish his career elsewhere.

We haven't really seen a situation where a player has opted to purposely obstruct a Dubas' move, other than maybe Kadri/Marleau neither of whom were signed by him to begin with.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

The thing I don't understand is that the clear issue with Muzzin-Holl is their combined skating ability. Swapping out one for Chiarot or Manson is not going to make that pairing perform better.

They have to play with guys who can skate (Liljegren and Dermott) or change their game to take fewer risks where their skating can't compensate. Risks like the ones where they were burned multiple times in the past few games.

Neither are really puck movers (they never really were to begin with) but we are seeing them play like they are Rielly, when really they should be playing more like Brodie or Hainsey. They can still be aggressive and take risks, but Brodie/Hainsey were a lot more selective about it... And even Brodie is still a very strong skater and can probably afford to take more risks than a Muzzin/Holl (plus they had an excellent skater in Rielly as their partner).

I think the solution will eventually be splitting up Muzzin/Holl full time, but for now they need to ease Liljegren/Dermott into the role so it probably can't happen until later on. Until then, it probably can be a hybrid situation, or you just need to tell that pairing to ease up on plays where they can get caught.

 

[Michael HOMERUNing]

The thing I don't understand is that the clear issue with Muzzin-Holl is their combined skating ability. Swapping out one for Chiarot or Manson is not going to make that pairing perform better.

Manson is as good a skater as anyone on the blue line except maybe Rielly. He would be an immediate upgrade over either Holl or Muzzin

 

[Michael HOMERUNing]

To be clear, I'm not a fan of the Muzzin/Holl pairing this year. But, the screaming about both having lost everything that made them a quality shutdown pairing last year...really? They may be less than they were, but that doesn't mean they are trash. It suggests the the team needs to adapt. Thankfully, Sandin and Liljegren are trending in a positive way. Dermott, who has developed less than I'd hoped is still an option and better than most in his 6/7 D position (as I see it at this time). Put Sandin with one of Dermott or Holl, try Liljegren with Muzz and lets see what we have. Don't knee jerk. If you can upgrade, sure, but we've got 7 D who I think can play at an NHL level, that's important, especially in the playoffs. If Rubin proves to be an 8th D who can manage minutes, we're ahead of the game. 25-30 games does not make a season. Unless there is an obvious upside, relax.

They were a shutdown pair against the weak teams in Canada division but before that Holl hadn't proved he was anything more than a 6th defenseman

 

[Michael HOMERUNing]

People saying to put Liljegren and Sandin BOTH in the top 4 are not looking at this realistically. If there's anything we know about this management group it's that they like to take their time with defensemen. Despite Holl's terrible start and Liljegren's good one Keefe has always gone back to Holl. The only way I see Liljegren getting an extended look in the top 4 is if both Dermott and Holl are out with injuries or off the roster. Sandin will get his chance if Rielly gets injured.

That obviously applies to just the present. In the future I think both Sandin and Liljegren will play key roles for this team

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Manson is as good a skater as anyone on the blue line except maybe Rielly. He would be an immediate upgrade over either Holl or Muzzin

In a straight line race goal line to goal line you have Rielly 1 and then a little drop to Dermy/Manson 2-3 and then there would be a little drop to Brodie and then another drop to Lily and then Muzzy and then Holl and Sandin would mop up every time based on camp skating times .. but overall it would increase our foot speed on backend which is lacking with Dermy out

 

[ACC1224]

People saying to put Liljegren and Sandin BOTH in the top 4 are not looking at this realistically. If there's anything we know about this management group it's that they like to take their time with defensemen. Despite Holl's terrible start and Liljegren's good one Keefe has always gone back to Holl. The only way I see Liljegren getting an extended look in the top 4 is if both Dermott and Holl are out with injuries or off the roster. Sandin will get his chance if Rielly gets injured.

That obviously applies to just the present. In the future I think both Sandin and Liljegren will play key roles for this team

Hopefully you're wrong and the long overdue pairing change begins Saturday.

 

[lipstickjunkie]

They just need to let Liljegren play. He's better than anyone they have outside of Rielly/Brodie.

 

[meefer]

#1 I'm not contradicting myself. If you read carefully I said he was decent, not good. There is a difference between being decent and being good.

#2 you made this comment "I question the length of time you've been watching the game" so I replied with, I been watching for 20 years, since you seemed so curious about it.

Relax with the condescending BS bud. You don't have to agree with my take on Holl and that's fine, but don't make snarky comments and then get your feelings hurt when people to reply to them. Holl has been absolutely atrocious this year, and its a 20+ game sample size, not a small sample.


"You're only 40 years behind me" You'd think after watching hockey for 60 years you'd be able to tell the difference between a good and a bad d-man.

You're quite right to kick me in the balls for the comment I made. It was a bit late at night here and I made a comment that was personal, something I try not to do. I apologize and will do my best to avoid a repeat in the future.

 

[Budz22]

So looks like Muzzin and hole aren't going to cut it. What do the Leafs do about the D?

I was streaming the Jackets broadcast and the play by play commentator kept saying Justin “Hole” I was shaking my head but he is definitely right.

 

[francis246]

The thing I don't understand is that the clear issue with Muzzin-Holl is their combined skating ability. Swapping out one for Chiarot or Manson is not going to make that pairing perform better.

They have to play with guys who can skate (Liljegren and Dermott) or change their game to take fewer risks where their skating can't compensate. Risks like the ones where they were burned multiple times in the past few games.

Neither are really puck movers (they never really were to begin with) but we are seeing them play like they are Rielly, when really they should be playing more like Brodie or Hainsey. They can still be aggressive and take risks, but Brodie/Hainsey were a lot more selective about it... And even Brodie is still a very strong skater and can probably afford to take more risks than a Muzzin/Holl (plus they had an excellent skater in Rielly as their partner).

I think the solution will eventually be splitting up Muzzin/Holl full time, but for now they need to ease Liljegren/Dermott into the role so it probably can't happen until later on. Until then, it probably can be a hybrid situation, or you just need to tell that pairing to ease up on plays where they can get caught.

I like Chiarot but he's not coming to the leafs. It sucks but it is what it is. Toronto isn't trading a first to Montreal. Manson would be a great addition as well. The fact of the matter is we need an upgrade on defense. The defense we have right now is not a championship defense core. We need one more guy that can play in the top 4 with a bit of sand paper but can also skate and move the puck (Mayfield would be the perfect guy) and then we need to keep that Sandin-Liljegren pairing and rotate Dermott in and have one of Krys, Rubins, Kral, Biega as the 8th guy.

Rielly - Mayfield
Muzzin - Brodie
Sandin - Liljegren
Dermott