Free Agents and Trade Thread - Offseason on Hold Edition

[4thline]

Engvall is making a mere $175k over the fully buriable amount. I fail to see how you improve anything by turning him into a worse cheaper player.

But 500k over league min.

He's definitely an interesting case. As a 4th line LW he's a luxury that we could likely do without (or even duplicate for a lower cap hit). As a potential 3C with size and speed for when we need to trim salary he's worth his weight in gold if he can do the job.

 

[Merrrlin]

Why the hell would we be getting rid of Engvall of all people?

It makes no sense. He had a great year, all things considered.

 

[deletethis]

But 500k over league min.

He's definitely an interesting case. As a 4th line LW he's a luxury that we could likely do without (or even duplicate for a lower cap hit). As a potential 3C with size and speed for when we need to trim salary he's worth his weight in gold if he can do the job.

Needing to maximize league minimum bodies at the start of any season is a mistake in my opinion. Unless it's about saving some cap space to use later. Otherwise with a team pressed right up to the cap ceiling, it greatly reduces flexibility. Once a capped out team's cap structure is formed with league minimum bodies, that means any substitutions for those league minimum bodies can only be league minimum bodies when there's no LTIRs. This could literally freeze out some players on ELCs if they're signed for more than $750k.

P.S. Engvall is going to be more than just a 4th liner in 2020-21. He'll play on the 4th line at times but I have no doubt that he'll play up in the lineup and possibly at center at times.

 

[WTFMAN99]

There are a few issues with all of that though. 1) We have a lot of quality 4th line options outside of Engvall. Barabanov could be on the 4th line, in addition to Spezza (who could play center and wing) and Korshkov. In addition, there are over a dozen other guys who are great 4th line options on the open market, and most, if not all of them, bring a lot more outside of just defensive and PK ability. 2) Since PK is such a big part of his game, who is he replacing out of Marner, Kapanen, Mikheyev, Gauthier and Hyman on that PK? In terms of xGA/60, he is worse than Engvall and Mikheyev (and of course they do better in xGF/60 as well). Hyman is also better, but since he is a center, I am not going to compare the two. He is better than Kapanen and Marner, but not really enough to warrant bringing him in just to upgrade them on the PK. In fact, Kapanen is practically just as good, and near the top in the league in terms of xGF/60 on the PK.

Derek Grant, Tyler Pitlick and Kevin Rooney are three other UFA's who are likely going to be pretty cheap and were far better PKers than Nordstrom last year. Derek Grant is also an excellent FO center and brings a lot more to the table offensively. However in a weaker center market, he could probably get still get a deal in the 1.5 mill range. Pitlick is likely not getting a great deal, but he can bring more offensive ability than Nordstrom while still being a solid defensive/PK player. Rooney is effectively as good as Nordstrom, but had much better PK numbers on a worse team. Additionally, both Rooney and Grant had better xGF/60 numbers. Pitlick was slightly worse, but still would be a better option.

However if we are that concerned about our PK, we are just not going to trade Engvall. Engvall was the 3rd best PKer in the league (over 50 minutes of PK TOI) based on xGA/60 last year. Was also 11th in GF/60 on the PK (I originally said 3rd, but that was when it was a 5 on 4 PK). If you want a top 10 PK, you want more people like Engvall, not less.

EDIT: I did not see you mentioned Nosek. He would be a little bit better than Nordstrom for me, since he has a little bit more offensive ability and can take draws, but he was one of the worst PKers in the league last year (although his previous two years would make him slightly better than Kapanen) and still is not all that impressive to me. I would personally be looking at 4th liners who can bring more than Gauthier and Korshkov though, and personally, I do not think Nordstrom and Nosek really bring more than either of them.

Difference of opinion

Barbanov I don't know what we have and I am already assuming that Kapanen isn't on the roster next season because he's going to be used to address defense most likely.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I keep Spezza as the 4th line RW in this scenario. Can slide to C if we need him too and he's a better option than Malgin and Bracco still.

If people wanted a Lowry type then you might as well give Gauthier a shot at the 3C spot, but I would do everything I could to get a Faska type of player there.

Between Thornton and Spezza, who would actually shoot the puck? They both defer and play make.

Gauthier could develop for another 50 years with eternal youth and won't be Lowry. He's an awful 4th line centre, never mind a 3rd line centre.

I'd love Faksa but he's getting a long term deal and staying in Dallas according to a lot of their local media.

 

[deletethis]

Why the hell would we be getting rid of Engvall of all people?

It makes no sense. He had a great year, all things considered.

Why do people buy 3 67 cent cans of peas over a $2.99 bag of frozen peas? It's false economy.

 

[4thline]

Needing to maximize league minimum bodies at the start of any season is a mistake in my opinion. Unless it's about saving some cap space to use later. Otherwise with a team pressed right up to the cap ceiling, it greatly reduces flexibility. Once a capped out team's cap structure is formed with league minimum bodies, that means any substitutions for those league minimum bodies can only be league minimum bodies when there's no LTIRs. This could literally freeze out some players on ELCs if they're signed for more than $750k.

P.S. Engvall is going to be more than just a 4th liner in 2020-21. He'll play on the 4th line at times but I have no doubt that he'll play up in the lineup and possibly at center at times.

I completely agree with the top paragraph, but depending on what moves we make he could be as low as 13F battling with Brooks for a spot on the roster (with no one but 13F/7D making less than near top ELC money). I forget the article but either Freidman or Johnston hinted that his roster spot isn't as guaranteed as fans/media think.

That being said, I like the idea of him centring the 4th line with Spezza riding shotgun, him developing into a viable Kerfoot replacement that pk's would be huge for the org.

 

[Fogelhund]

Between Thornton and Spezza, who would actually shoot the puck? They both defer and play make.

Gauthier could develop for another 50 years with eternal youth and won't be Lowry. He's an awful 4th line centre, never mind a 3rd line centre.

I'd love Faksa but he's getting a long term deal and staying in Dallas according to a lot of their local media.

I'd agree, that we shouldn't be hoping for Gauthier to be a 3rd line C... he's just never going to be that guy.

But awful 4C? I'd disagree there, and suggest that he's actually pretty good in that role.

Most hits/60 of any forward on the team, good in the dot, and despite over 70% starts in the dzone, has one of the lowest GA/60 on the team. If he can develop into a PK C, he'd actually be a very useful asset moving forward. Hands of stone.. but even that was improved last year.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I'd agree, that we shouldn't be hoping for Gauthier to be a 3rd line C... he's just never going to be that guy.

But awful 4C? I'd disagree there, and suggest that he's actually pretty good in that role.

Most hits/60 of any forward on the team, good in the dot, and despite over 70% starts in the dzone, has one of the lowest GA/60 on the team. If he can develop into a PK C, he'd actually be a very useful asset moving forward. Hands of stone.. but even that was improved last year.

Skating is awful, too easy to take advantage of on the PK because he can't move or cut off lanes quick enough. Still not a physical presence. He's 13th forward quality, nothing more. Brooks might even overtake him next season.

 

[deletethis]

As far as I'm concerned, Gauthier's skating is fine and he was probably the most physical Leafs' forward before Clifford joined the team. He's good on the forecheck. His biggest issue is his puck skills which greatly limits what happens in the offensive end: his options with the puck are a shoot-in then retrieval to cycle on the boards or a shoot-in then a hit. His other bothersome characteristic is his defensive zone reactive passivity. He doesn't take bad defending penalties very often but it's all about his long reach/big frame and discipline to stay in position to be the defensive deterrent. High skill players can make plays around this style of defending hence he isn't a great penalty killer.

 

[Buds17]

Why the hell would we be getting rid of Engvall of all people?

It makes no sense. He had a great year, all things considered.

I'd agree, for the most part. He hasn't put up Johnsson or Mikheyev like numbers. He also isn't paid as such. We'll have to see if Engvall projects to be more of a third or fourth liner. In the event of the latter, a winger on ELC (or equivalent enough to that) making the team might make that less of an issue.

 

[4thline]

If it's had hard to move cap as some are speculating I could see Pateryn and Nutivaara being guys that come back from a Johnsson/Kerfoot trade.

Pateryn
+fits nicely as a babysitter for Lehtonen/Sandin, brings physical and pk presence, bigger cap savings,
- might not be able to handle the puck well enough for our systems

Nutivaara
+has played top 4 minutes on the right, has decent upside as a Rielly partner, more mobile,
-higher cap, not a right shot, not proven solution

 

[SeaOfBlue]

If it's had hard to move cap as some are speculating I could see Pateryn and Nutivaara being guys that come back from a Johnsson/Kerfoot trade.

Pateryn
+fits nicely as a babysitter for Lehtonen/Sandin, brings physical and pk presence, bigger cap savings,
- might not be able to handle the puck well enough for our systems

Nutivaara
+has played top 4 minutes on the right, has decent upside as a Rielly partner, more mobile,
-higher cap, not a right shot, not proven solution

Pass. Pateryn is an overpaid #6, so Johnsson and Kerfoot are worth far more. We can trade Kerfoot or Johnsson for picks and find a defenseman on the open market who is just as good, if not better, for a fraction of the cap hit.

Nutivaara is not much better. We can get a guy in UFA for a lower cap hit, less term and for no assets.

Leafs would be better off giving Pysyk, Kulikov, etc. a cheap UFA deal (since that is all they will likely get) to be our #6.

 

[4thline]

Pass. Pateryn is an overpaid #6, so Johnsson and Kerfoot are worth far more. We can trade Kerfoot or Johnsson for picks and find a defenseman on the open market who is just as good, if not better, for a fraction of the cap hit.

The premise (which is quite possible, though IMO not likely) is that we have trouble finding takers for pure picks.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

The premise (which is quite possible, though IMO not likely) is that we have trouble finding takers for pure picks.

I figure it is possible it could be a problem, but if it wasn't a problem in 2013-2014 when the cap was the same as it was in 2011-2012 (and after teams lost half a year in revenue), then it should not be a problem now. Sekera, Frolik, Bolland, Bernier, Clutterbuck/Niederreiter, Schneider, Kennedy, Setoguchi, Ryan, Perron, McBain, Smid, etc. all were paid similar or more than Johnsson or Kerfoot would be paid (relative to the cap) during the subsequent offseason after the lockout, yet all received more than appropriate trade returns.

Even then, I doubt the solution is to trade them for (at most) 1 mill in cap savings and getting a less useful player in return. I would rather have an appropriately priced top 9 forward (especially a top 9 center like Kerfoot) than a pricey #6 where I can get a guy making less than half the amount for no assets in UFA to provide the same output.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

Between Thornton and Spezza, who would actually shoot the puck? They both defer and play make.

Gauthier could develop for another 50 years with eternal youth and won't be Lowry. He's an awful 4th line centre, never mind a 3rd line centre.

I'd love Faksa but he's getting a long term deal and staying in Dallas according to a lot of their local media.

To be honest, starting Robertson on a line with Thornton and Spezza would be amazing for his development, after that Engvall really likes to shoot it, would get more of a chance to with those two guys.

I've posted about the Lowry/Gauthier thing before but in short, They have pretty comparable even strength points percentage despite Lowry averaging almost 6 minutes more per game. Gauthier has higher d-zone starts and is better at faceoffs. Both can play the PK. Lowry is extremely overrated here and Gauthier is a very passable 4th line C that could likely produce more with more O-zone starts and more minutes.

 

[deletethis]

The premise (which is quite possible, though IMO not likely) is that we have trouble finding takers for pure picks.

I agree. And if it's for pure picks, we're talking about a much lower return. Something like Kerfoot for a 4th round pick vs. Kerfoot for a 2nd round pick and another $3M player. If that $3M player plays right side defense, maybe we could make it work.

 

[Knies iT]

Why the hell would we be getting rid of Engvall of all people?

It makes no sense. He had a great year, all things considered.

There's absolutely no reason to trade a 6'5"+ unicorn of a player that's already one of the best skaters in the league. Can PK, score, and play centre - all by his rookie season.

That 1.2m is going to look fantastic when he's a 3rd line staple who can play up on any line.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Engvall started out well, but was mediocre down the stretch when we needed secondary scoring.

14 PTS in his first 27 GP
1 PTS in his last 21 GP

If he can keep his game simple and be Kapanen-lite he'll be worth his price tag.

*****​

With all bonuses paid out a week ago, Ottawa will be champing at the bit for one of our 3 million dollar forwards. Plus they have four 2nds and two 3rds to play with.

 

[LeafChief]

To be honest, starting Robertson on a line with Thornton and Spezza would be amazing for his development, after that Engvall really likes to shoot it, would get more of a chance to with those two guys.

I've posted about the Lowry/Gauthier thing before but in short, They have pretty comparable even strength points percentage despite Lowry averaging almost 6 minutes more per game. Gauthier has higher d-zone starts and is better at faceoffs. Both can play the PK. Lowry is extremely overrated here and Gauthier is a very passable 4th line C that could likely produce more with more O-zone starts and more minutes.

That would be unreal. Having him get to learn from two legends that also happen to still be incredible passers would be something to watch. Would also be hilarious to see the 18 year old with two players that have been in the league since before he was born (Thornton) and from when he was a year old (Spezza).

 

[Americanadian]

If Robertson proves he can play during these playoffs I think the Leafs should use Nylander at 3C.

Trade Kerfoot and Dermott for Savard.

Mikheyev-Matthews-Marner
Robertson-Tavares-Hyman
Johnsson-Nylander-Kapanen
Engvall-Gauthier-Spezza

Rielly-Savard
Muzzin-Holl
Sandin-Lehtonen

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

Why the hell would we be getting rid of Engvall of all people?

It makes no sense. He had a great year, all things considered.

He did struggle a bit after a hot start, but the whole bottom 6 kind of dried up at the same time.

If he could ever find a way to add 20lbs to that frame without sacrificing the speed, he could be a beast on that deal.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

He did struggle a bit after a hot start, but the whole bottom 6 kind of dried up at the same time.

If he could ever find a way to add 20lbs to that frame without sacrificing the speed, he could be a beast on that deal.

He's already 215 lbs according to NHL.com. 235 lbs is like Byfuglien level

 

[WTFMAN99]

To be honest, starting Robertson on a line with Thornton and Spezza would be amazing for his development, after that Engvall really likes to shoot it, would get more of a chance to with those two guys.

I've posted about the Lowry/Gauthier thing before but in short, They have pretty comparable even strength points percentage despite Lowry averaging almost 6 minutes more per game. Gauthier has higher d-zone starts and is better at faceoffs. Both can play the PK. Lowry is extremely overrated here and Gauthier is a very passable 4th line C that could likely produce more with more O-zone starts and more minutes.

Give all 31 teams a chance at both players, 31/31 teams take Lowry. Difficult to play against, fights, sticks up for teammate, more mobility and pt/game numbers the 2 years previous to this favor Lowry. Lowry was playing through injury most of the season as well.

Lowry's shooting % this year was also 5.9% with a career average of 10.5% (including that 5.9%) whereas Gauthier shot 16.7% when he has an average of 11% (inflated a bit by that 16.7%).

I do think that Robertson would definitely benefit in playing with a guy like Thornton and/or Spezza to start his career. I like the idea even more of a Robertson-Thornton-Engvall 4th line, Engvall would really provide some speed to the line.

 

[weems]

For all the Mackenzie Weegar fans