stickty111
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2017
- 26,656
- 32,965
Agreed
Watch this. Clifford wasn't even here yet. Look at the Leafs coming in to defend Kerfoot
Free Agents and Trade Thread - Offseason on Hold Edition
- Thread starter Warden of the North
- Start date
- Status
Watch this. Clifford wasn't even here yet. Look at the Leafs coming in to defend Kerfoot
Kurtz
Registered User
- Jul 17, 2005
- 10,100
- 6,970
There are myriad "decent players who can play a regular shift". They are called plugs, and you don't have to give up assets to get them. Hell, we gave up one in Moore to get Clifford!
The primary reason Clifford has value is that he's a physical player who's not a liability on the ice.
Come on guys, are you seriously arguing that we didn't acquire Clifford primarily for his physicality and that Tampa was more physical than St Louis and Columbus?
Last edited:
It's unlikely that Campbell would have got, let alone won, 3 more games in the 12 remaining games.
stickty111
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2017
- 26,656
- 32,965
Clifford also drives play decently and isn't a negative on the ice. If you think Dubas just ignored everything but physicality, then sure, but I don't want my GM to be so focused on one thing.
As much as I like this discussions but I think we are essentially saying the same thing. We all just had a different idea or image of the definition of physical.
All Cup Finals teams were tough to play against and part of the reason was they don’t back down from anything and anyone.
It include hits, grits and most of all, they fought for every inch. That’s something these young Leafs need to do and realize, that in Hockey or life, it is a game of inches...there goes the rest of Al’s speech in Any Given Sunday.
All Cup Finals teams were tough to play against and part of the reason was they don’t back down from anything and anyone.
It include hits, grits and most of all, they fought for every inch. That’s something these young Leafs need to do and realize, that in Hockey or life, it is a game of inches...there goes the rest of Al’s speech in Any Given Sunday.
Kurtz
Registered User
- Jul 17, 2005
- 10,100
- 6,970
Clifford is a guy, he won't hurt you but in the general run of play he's mostly just there existing
He will stick up for his teammates which has value on a team like ours but I'm extremely leary about what his next contract will look like and if it's a good investment of cap resources
I'm not that worried about the trade, I see it as a massive backup upgrade with term and Clifford doing a job for 6 months before he walks in free agency (in hope)
He will stick up for his teammates which has value on a team like ours but I'm extremely leary about what his next contract will look like and if it's a good investment of cap resources
I'm not that worried about the trade, I see it as a massive backup upgrade with term and Clifford doing a job for 6 months before he walks in free agency (in hope)
Yes, they are known as a super soft team and they are treated as a super soft team.
Hits are recorded differently depending on the arena and the person recording them. So hit totals are misleading. But if you compare each team for how many hits they gave vs how hits they took it would give a more accurate (but still flawed) count as at least you have relative consistency each game - so games you play in arenas where they are more liberal in their hit counts would be accounted for in both hits and hits taken.
Most teams this season hit about as often as they took hits (generally within 100. For instance St Louis gave 1471 hits and took 1749 hits amounting to +22 overall).
The Islanders were the most on the plus side: +424. They gave 128 for every 100 they took.
Toronto was the most on the negative side....by a large margin. -579. They took 149 hits for every 100 they gave (and this was including Timashov and Moore who gave far more hits than they took and were both traded).
Chicago was next with -362, taking 124 hits for every 100 they gave.
That is astonishingly numbers for Toronto. Teams knew that they could do what ever they wanted. And it was reflected in far more than just hits. Players were hacked. Freddie was abused. Young players were abused. Teams took all kinds of liberties with the Leafs. It has be demoralizing when you know you are being physically walked over every game.
As you've already been shown, their results do not change when taking out home games.
If physicality actually mattered as much as you claim, it would be reflected in some kind of result.
Magic Man
Registered User
There is actually a difference in quality of hits as well. Kadri didn't have high hit totals, but when he hit you, he knocked you silly.
Martin Skoula
Registered User
- Oct 18, 2017
- 11,741
- 16,533
So if a team was so good that they had the puck 100% of the game, your conclusion would be that they must be the softest team of all time since they get hit infinitely more often than they hit the other team?
The puck carrier is the only player eligible to be hit legally, everything else is by definition interference or not a hit (fighting for the puck on the boards for example). If you're hitting the other team significantly more than they're hitting you, it stands to reason that the other team must have the puck more often than you do, no?
stickty111
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2017
- 26,656
- 32,965
No your just not understanding the main point.
It's fair to see Clifford brought physicality. What isn't fair to say is Dubas only brought him in for that.
Kurtz
Registered User
- Jul 17, 2005
- 10,100
- 6,970
It's semantics. He traded Moore+ for Clifford. From a skills perspective, that's a neutral move or a loss. What we're gaining is physicality, ergo the reason for the trade was to improve our physicality, an area that he recognized we were deficient in, else he wouldn't make the deal.
To add on to this, it's also not fair to suggest this reflects a change in philosophy, or recognition of softness or error. Dubas has never avoided "grit" in the players he targets, and some of our "grittiest" players are Dubas acquisitions. He just doesn't put wildly exaggerated emphasis on it, or make it the sole defining characteristic of the players he targets.
And the much more important piece, Campbell...
Completely irrelevant. The results would have to hold for all teams.
It is reflected in the results. The team, despite having Matthews, Marner and Nylander better, more experienced and older, plus adding Tavares, has gotten worse for the last two years. They would get pushed around by a team made of 6-year-olds. The whole league knows it. They know it. Management knows it. A few deluded fans deny it.
Idiotic statement. The best possession team in the league this year according to the numbers is Vegas. They hit more than they took. There is no team even close to being like Toronto in the NHL who just gets rag-dolled out there. They didn't get hit much more than they hit other players because they always have the puck - something that anyone who watches them should know as they get stuck in their own end for endless streams of time. They get hit much more than they hit other players because teams know they are a bunch of wimps who don't care enough about each other to stick up for one another.
What are you talking about? You claimed these teams were physical. The stats show they were not. You claimed arena bias affected the stats. When we remove home games to take out arena bias, the stats said the exact same thing. They had the exact same ranking in the league.
They have not gotten worse for the last 2 years. Last year, they improved in everything except shootout record, which has nothing to do with physicality. Over both years, the results of the actual team of skaters has been much improved compared to 2017-2018. Only goaltending has been worse.
Also, why are you comparing to 2017-2018? What evidence is there that we were any more physical in 2017-2018? What we did have in 2017-2018 was unsustainable health and a 35 year old backup goalie fluking into a vezina-quality season.
None of this is evidence of physicality impacting anything.
This is a ridiculous and false statement.
Whatever metric you are using to determine "possession" is not an actual measure of the amount of time teams have the puck.
Martin Skoula
Registered User
- Oct 18, 2017
- 11,741
- 16,533
I'm not disagreeing that most teams outmatch us physically or that we don't need to use our size more effectively, just that raw hit differentials don't really mean any of the stuff you're trying to show them to mean.
Our hits/game went down and our hits taken/game went down under Keefe, did we get less physical and more elusive overnight? Or are we just not running the dump and chase nearly as often anymore, and controlled entries with short passes don't rely on physicality?
You said it yourself, Timashov is far and away our hit leader, did he impact the team in any meaningful way? Were we better as a result of his hitting?
You could make this team play in a way that generates more hits without making a single trade, just make them run the dump and chase and use the trap defensively to force a dump and chase in return. We'd have much higher hit numbers without becoming any more physical in any sort of meaningful way other than probably leaning on Muzzin and Hyman more. Is that team now better and more ready to face Boston somehow?
Someone like Matthews deciding to use his size to send a message one time is a way bigger impact on our game and mentality than adding a couple hundred flyby hits on the dump and chase. Do you want to spend 8 figures to have someone play a simple north-south game?
I understand what you are saying, but it is not really my point. Some teams play styles that result in more contact during games and more hits for both teams. The Leafs' have switched to a style in which they hit and get hit less often than while under Babcock, but they still get hit a lot more than they hit because other teams know they can.
People on here, some of the same people who are rejecting what I am saying, have used the fact that the Leafs' have thrown as many hits as they have received over the last three playoffs as proof that they are not a soft team. Over that three year period they have played a style in which if they bring it they throw as many hits as they receive. But in the regular season they went from taking 10% more hits than they gave in 2017 to 20% more hits than they gave in 2018 to 40% more hits than they gave in 2019, to now 50% more. Teams know that they can take liberties without consequences. Management recognizes that is happening and for instance brought in Clifford.
Now hits for and against may be flawed way of showing that this team is being taken advantage of - something I acknowledged from the start.
But we don't track the number of times that a goalie was given a shot with no response, or the number of times that a young player was roughed up with no response, or the number of times that a Leafs' player was on the receiving end of a bad hit and no one did anything, or the number of times that opposing players stand in the crease completely untouched, or the number of board battles we lose etc.
Earlier in the week I was watching some games from the fall (the Leafs were involved in none of these games) and early in one of those games Kucherov tried to slide in front of the net and was removed from that area immediately and hard. He looked a good deal more tentative when going near the net after that. Nothing was going to be given to him. He had to earn it. He had to be very sneaky - and that is the way it should be. Matthews and Nylander score a lot of goals from up close, but again, they have to be deceptive to get to those areas. No one wants to give them an inch. It is generally way too easy to get into those spots against the Leafs without paying a price. It is way to easy to give a questionable hit against the Leafs without paying a price. It is way to easy to give Freddie a little shot after the whistle without paying a price. Teams want to win and they will take as much as they are allowed.
The Podium
Registered User
The team did not get worse the last 2 years, in fact 2018-2019 was significantly better than 2017-2018 to anyone willing to pay attention
Yep. Despite significant injuries to
rielly
Muzzin
Ceci
Dermott
on D
marner
Tavares
Miky
Mango
Hyman
and even freddie....
The leafs played at a 107 pt pace, with anyone not named Hutchison in net.
The Podium
Registered User
That’s this year, I’m talking about last season. They Leafs ROW improved from 41 to 46 but they only had 1 SO point vs 16 the year prior
- Status
Ad
Latest posts
-
GDT: 4/27/24 - 5:00PM EDT - #1 Florida vs #1 WC Tampa Bay [ECQF GAME 4]- Latest: Stammertime91
