GDT: Free Agency - Oct 9th - 11:00am CT

[Fire Stan Bowman]

We can thank Kane for at least the last 12.

so dumb

 

[ChiHawks10]

so dumb

You don't think a big problem with the PP for the last 12 years has been everyone constantly standing around watching Kane with the puck? I mean... it's pretty damn obvious to anyone with eyes that's a problem, and has been for a long time. So I'm not sure what is dumb about it.

 

[JaegerDice]

In 2016? Like, the 2015-2016 season, or the offseason of 2016? Regardless, Seabrook was signed in 2015, so it's a moot point. That contract is the one killing them. The Hawks had also just played a tough St. Louis team to seven games in the 2016 playoffs....so how was the rebuild "clearly needed"? This is revisionist history bullshit.

The 2015 off-season.

The 2015 Blackhawks scratched and clawed for a cup, and it took - among other things - one of the most irreplicable, herculean performances by a Dman in history to pull it off. The idea the 2016 roster, had a chance to win when they were LOSING important pieces, core pieces were getting older and less impactful, was hubris. They had no chance to win the cup.

15th in the league in CF%
14th in the league in SF%
22nd in the league in xGF%
20th in the league in 5v5 GF%

They were a one line team with 2 legitimate D (playing on the same pair!) and elite goaltending.

They had no legitimate shot.


All the moves in that off-season were made in a misguided win-now mindset, when they should have been riding the honeymoon phase coming out of a 3rd cup win to set the pieces in place for the future.

Sharp should have been moved for picks, prospects and raw cap space. No fixation on bringing an NHL player back.
Seabrook should have been traded at the peak of his value.
No fear of a Saad offer-sheet. If he's offer-sheeted, you take the picks with glee. If not, he sits until he agrees to a bridge deal.
Add Panarin.
Don't trade a 1st for an over-the-hill Andrew Ladd that predictably ended up on the 3rd line by the time the STL series was done
Don't trade Danault plus picks for bottom 6 depth

How many assets and how much cap flexibility do you have no to develop key players from within, to trade with, to draft with?

 

[JaegerDice]

so dumb

He's right.

Kane's Carmelo Anthony routine on the half-wall has been a problem for years.

 

[JaegerDice]

Is 5 vs 5 the only aspect of game that counts?

Maybe that is why our PP has been so shitty most of the last 25 years

5v5 is obviously far more important than the PP.

PP ice-time is like 10% of the hockey played, and it requires a 3rd party to make a call on your behalf to actually get those opportunities.

5v5 is demonstrably more predictive, more repeatable, and more important to winning than the power-play.

 

[Pez68]

The 2015 off-season.

The 2015 Blackhawks scratched and clawed for a cup, and it took - among other things - one of the most irreplicable, herculean performances by a Dman in history to pull it off. The idea the 2016 roster, had a chance to win when they were LOSING important pieces, core pieces were getting older and less impactful, was hubris. They had no chance to win the cup, which is the goal.

All the moves in that off-season were made in a misguided win-now mindset, when they should have been riding the honeymoon phase coming out of a 3rd cup win to set the pieces in place for the future.

Sharp should have been moved for picks, prospects and raw cap space. No fixation on bringing an NHL player back.
Seabrook should have been traded at the peak of his value.
No fear of a Saad offer-sheet. If he's offer-sheeted, you take the picks with glee. If not, he sits until he agrees to a bridge deal.
Add Panarin.
Don't trade a 1st for an over-the-hill Andrew Ladd that predictably ended up on the 3rd line by the time the STL series was done
Don't trade Danault plus picks for bottom 6 depth
How many assets and how much cap flexibility do you have no to develop key players from within, to trade with, to draft with?

So, a completely unrealistic scenario that not a single GM in any sport would ever do. A rebuild immediately after winning a championship. This type of nonsensical shit is why nobody here takes you seriously, the majority of the time.

 

[ClydeLee]

Some of those may of been impossible to do. Sharp maybe couldn't be traded without cap returning, and that was even with a prospect. I recall at the time people said there was a draft pick 2nd roundee offer rumor, and from Dallas too I think, but I always thought how do you know that doesn't include with a cap retention. Instead Dallas got to swap space with the Daley move.

 

[JaegerDice]

So, a completely unrealistic scenario that not a single GM in any sport would ever do. A rebuild immediately after winning a championship. This type of nonsensical shit is why nobody here takes you seriously, the majority of the time.

The St Louis Blues in sold in the 2018 season when they were still in the playoff hunt. They won the cup the next year after using the cap space they saved to acquire OReilly.

The Tampa Bay Lightning did the same a few years earlier, then they traded players like Boyle to Toronto and others, knowing full well that due to injury, they would not be a legitimate cup threat. They ended up missing the playoffs by 1 point, and probably make it (only to lose) if they keep their assets or spend. Instead they used the assets to continue to keep themselves the deepest team in the league.

There are plenty of other examples of savvy teams understanding that they are not in a position to contend and keep their powder dry for when they have a chance. And those teams and General Managers didn't have the grace period of having just won a cup to work with. They could have been fired the next year for all they knew, and still had the brains and the stones to make the moves that made sense given their team's realistic chances of reaching the ultimate goal.

Amazingly, it IS possible for people to understand exactly how good their team is or is not, and decide that they'd rather be good later and collect assets now, than waste assets and continue being mediocre.

Nobody was asking for a full rebuild. The idea that you can't take a year to take a step back in order to rebound quicker and better, is nonsense. ESPECIALLY if you have the good will coming off a cup win.

Kane, Toews, Keith, Crawford, Panarin, Teravanien, Saad, all still here, hell you even still had a half-decent Shaw and the addition of Danault, plus cap-space to add. Some 'rebuild'. What an absolutely nonsensical characterization.

There's nothing revisionist about knowing the 2016 Blackhawks were not likely to win a cup.

 

[bwana63]

The 2015 off-season.

The 2015 Blackhawks scratched and clawed for a cup, and it took - among other things - one of the most irreplicable, herculean performances by a Dman in history to pull it off. The idea the 2016 roster, had a chance to win when they were LOSING important pieces, core pieces were getting older and less impactful, was hubris. They had no chance to win the cup.

15th in the league in CF%
14th in the league in SF%
22nd in the league in xGF%
20th in the league in 5v5 GF%

They were a one line team with 2 legitimate D (playing on the same pair!) and elite goaltending.

They had no legitimate shot.


All the moves in that off-season were made in a misguided win-now mindset, when they should have been riding the honeymoon phase coming out of a 3rd cup win to set the pieces in place for the future.

Sharp should have been moved for picks, prospects and raw cap space. No fixation on bringing an NHL player back.
Seabrook should have been traded at the peak of his value.
No fear of a Saad offer-sheet. If he's offer-sheeted, you take the picks with glee. If not, he sits until he agrees to a bridge deal.
Add Panarin.
Don't trade a 1st for an over-the-hill Andrew Ladd that predictably ended up on the 3rd line by the time the STL series was done
Don't trade Danault plus picks for bottom 6 depth

How many assets and how much cap flexibility do you have no to develop key players from within, to trade with, to draft with?

Hindsight is a beautiful thing.

 

[Pez68]

The St Louis Blues in sold in the 2018 season when they were still in the playoff hunt. They won the cup the next year after using the cap space they saved to acquire OReilly.

The Tampa Bay Lightning did the same a few years earlier, then they traded players like Boyle to Toronto and others, knowing full well that due to injury, they would not be a legitimate cup threat. They ended up missing the playoffs by 1 point, and probably make it (only to lose) if they keep their assets or spend.

There are plenty of other examples of savvy teams understanding that they are not in a position to contend and keep their powder dry for when they have a chance.

Amazingly, it IS possible for people to understand exactly how good their team is or is not, and decide that they'd rather be good later and collect assets now, than waste assets and continue being mediocre.

Nobody was asking for a full rebuild. The idea that you can't take a year to take a step back in order to rebound quicker and better, is nonsense. ESPECIALLY if you have the good will coming off a cup win.

Kane, Toews, Keith, Crawford, Panarin, Teravanien, Saad, all still here, hell you even still had a half-decent Shaw and the addition of Danault, plus cap-space to add. Some 'rebuild'. What an absolutely nonsensical characterization.

There's nothing revisionist about knowing the 2016 Blackhawks were not likely to win a cup.

Lol.... None of that is even remotely similar to a team selling off assets and effectively "tanking" IMMEDIATELY after winning a championship. You're insufferable.

 

[JaegerDice]

Lol.... None of that is even remotely similar to a team selling off assets and effectively "tanking" IMMEDIATELY after winning a championship. You're insufferable.

Kane, Toews, Keith, Hjalmarsson, Crawford, Panarin, Teravanien, Saad, all still here, and it's 'tanking'.

Absurd.

 

[ChiHawks10]

The St Louis Blues in sold in the 2018 season when they were still in the playoff hunt. They won the cup the next year after using the cap space they saved to acquire OReilly.

The Tampa Bay Lightning did the same a few years earlier, then they traded players like Boyle to Toronto and others, knowing full well that due to injury, they would not be a legitimate cup threat. They ended up missing the playoffs by 1 point, and probably make it (only to lose) if they keep their assets or spend. Instead they used the assets to continue to keep themselves the deepest team in the league.

There are plenty of other examples of savvy teams understanding that they are not in a position to contend and keep their powder dry for when they have a chance. And those teams and General Managers didn't have the grace period of having just won a cup to work with. They could have been fired the next year for all they knew, and still had the brains and the stones to make the moves that made sense given their team's realistic chances of reaching the ultimate goal.

Amazingly, it IS possible for people to understand exactly how good their team is or is not, and decide that they'd rather be good later and collect assets now, than waste assets and continue being mediocre.

Nobody was asking for a full rebuild. The idea that you can't take a year to take a step back in order to rebound quicker and better, is nonsense. ESPECIALLY if you have the good will coming off a cup win.

Kane, Toews, Keith, Crawford, Panarin, Teravanien, Saad, all still here, hell you even still had a half-decent Shaw and the addition of Danault, plus cap-space to add. Some 'rebuild'. What an absolutely nonsensical characterization.

There's nothing revisionist about knowing the 2016 Blackhawks were not likely to win a cup.

Literally the only reason you can say any of this is because of the benefit of hindsight, lol. Who the f*** in their right mind was tearing down a team to rebuild coming off a Cup win? Tampa didn't do anything coming off a Cup win. The Blues didn't sell coming off a Cup win, either. Both of your ridiculous examples are like comparing apples to potatoes.

This is some of the dumbest shit I've ever seen you post.

 

[JaegerDice]

Literally the only reason you can say any of this is because of the benefit of hindsight, lol. Who the f*** in their right mind was tearing down a team to rebuild coming off a Cup win? Tampa didn't do anything coming off a Cup win. The Blues didn't sell coming off a Cup win, either. Both of your ridiculous examples are like comparing apples to potatoes.

This is some of the dumbest shit I've ever seen you post.

The Tampa Bay Lightning are indeed, selling assets coming off a cup win.

Hell, they apparently are willing to part with their Captain, Steven Stamkos. Only 4 players on their entire roster are untouchables.

According to HFBoards Blackhawks logic, "ITS A REBUILD!"

 

[ChiHawks10]

The Tampa Bay Lightning are indeed, selling assets coming off a cup win.

Who are they selling? Please, enlighten me. They had 6 guys on expiring one year contracts, with a high value of 1.7m... They have 4.5 million in cap space, up tight against a flat, stagnant cap... they're not selling... they just can't afford to sign everyone because of a cap that sat still instead of going up... Lol.

 

[JaegerDice]

Who are they selling? Please, enlighten me. They have 6 guys on expiring one year contracts... They have 4.5 million in cap space, up tight against a flat, stagnant cap... they're not selling... they just can't afford to sign everyone. Lol.

4 players on their team have been deemed untouchable according to the best hockey reporters in the game (McKensie and Friedmann).

So they're literally willing to sell on anybody save 4 key guys that continue to provide elite value and key positions, and any other player, no matter how critical or long-standing is moveable.

It's almost like Tampa is one of the smartest teams in the league or something...

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

The signs of decline were there for Seabrook

Moving on from him after 2015 Cup would hardly have constituted a "Rebuild

The excuses that are applied for Stanley and his errors are laughable

 

[ChiHawks10]

4 players on their team have been deemed untouchable according to the best hockey reporters in the game (McKensie and Friedmann).

So they're literally willing to sell on anybody save 4 key guys that continue to provide elite value and key positions, and any other player, no matter how critical or long-standing is moveable.

It's almost like Tampa is one of the smartest teams in the league or something...

So who have they moved? Who have they sold? Who have they traded? What pieces have been sold off to "rebuild" after their Cup?

So why don't you go become a Tampa fan? You've been fanboying over that franchise for years, just like Carolina.

Saying guys are available is far different than them actually moving and/or being available.

It's also far different when you have a flat cap to get under... as opposed to one that went up by $3-5m. They HAVE to move someone to sign who they want, and to fit a full team under the cap...

 

[JaegerDice]

So who have they moved? Who have they sold? Who have they traded? What pieces have been sold off to "rebuild" after their Cup?

So why don't you go become a Tampa fan? You've been fanboying over that franchise for years, just like Carolina.

Saying guys are available is far different than them actually moving and/or being available.

It's also far different when you have a flat cap to get under... as opposed to one that went up by $3-5m.

I'd rather the Blackhawks just get smarter, instead.

The Blackhawks were always going to end up where they are today, eventually.

Hubris and stupidity accelerated the process.

If they get smart, they can turn it around fairly quickly.

If they keep believing they're close.... lol.

 

[bwana63]

The Tampa Bay Lightning are indeed, selling assets coming off a cup win.

Hell, they apparently are willing to part with their Captain, Steven Stamkos. Only 4 players on their entire roster are untouchables.

According to HFBoards Blackhawks logic, "ITS A REBUILD!"

Ok, I don't follow the Lightning, so this may be off base. Guessing the cap has a lot to do with their moves. The Athletic just had a cap article. There are 3 teams in cap hell. I bet you can guess one of them.

 

[ChiHawks10]

I'd rather the Blackhawks just get smarter, instead of making trades like Saad for 'tall bag of shit who sucks at defending'.

Just like firing their pro scouting staff and hiring a pro scouting staff "focused on analytics" is the right play, too.

You're a numbers nerd, and I'm done having these conversations with you, because you'll literally never comprehend the fact that the stats and analytics will never dictate things in hockey like they do in baseball. You stare at spreadsheets like hockey can be f***ing money ball, and it's hilarious.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Ok, I don't follow the Lightning, so this may be off base. Guessing the cap has a lot to do with their moves. The Athletic just had a cap article. There are 3 teams in cap hell. I bet you can guess one of them.

It 100% does. It just goes against his stupid narrative that "Genius Tampa is selling after a rebuild ZOMG!" No... they're selling because they have 4m and 16 players under contract, and have to field a f***ing team. LOL.

 

[JaegerDice]

Just like firing their pro scouting staff and hiring a pro scouting staff "focused on analytics" is the right play, too.

You're a numbers nerd, and I'm done having these conversations with you, because you'll literally never comprehend the fact that the stats and analytics will never dictate things in hockey like they do in baseball. You stare at spreadsheets like hockey can be f***ing money ball, and it's hilarious.

Enjoy watching Zadorov hit people and make bad plays.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Enjoy watching Zadorov hit people and make bad plays.

How many years did you fanboy Tampa as the best statistical team over the last 15 years, and how many Cups they have to show for it? What about all those claims of Carolina being a contender every year? Where are their Cups? Just look at the stats! Tampa and Carolina should have won every Cup for the past 20 years based on the stats...

 

[bwana63]

It 100% does. It just goes against his stupid narrative that "Genius Tampa is selling after a rebuild ZOMG!" No... they're selling because they have 4m and 16 players under contract, and have to field a f***ing team. LOL.

I was trying to be gentle, lol.

 

[JaegerDice]

Ok, I don't follow the Lightning, so this may be off base. Guessing the cap has a lot to do with their moves. The Athletic just had a cap article. There are 3 teams in cap hell. I bet you can guess one of them.

Of course it has to do with the cap.

If there was no cap, the 2015 Blackhawks could have signed Seabrook to 10 million a year, signed Saad for 8, resigned Oduya for 5, kept Sharp, added Panarin, and added from the free agent pool.

EVERY decision in the cap era is influenced by the cap.

They obviously would have remained a cup contender in that hypothetical cap-less environment.

The point is that with a cap, you have to make smart decisions and cannot afford to limit your flexibility with bad contracts or delusions of your team's quality. You have to be able to say 'we can't make a winning team under the cap this year, we have to take a step back, reload and come back when we have good value contracts up and down the lineup'.