GDT: Free Agency - Oct 9th - 11:00am CT

[ChiHawks10]

I was trying to be gentle, lol.

I'm not gentle with someone who relies solely on biased hindsight to try and prove their point(a ridiculous point), and thinks the Hawks should have sold and rebuilt coming off a Cup win in 2015.

I'll gladly admit Bowman has made bad decisions that have helped put this team where they are. I'm not gonna sit here and act like any team, any GM, anyone involved in the FO of an NHL team, would EVER sell, coming off a Cup win, though. And then put out two examples of teams that don't even back up his claim that teams do it. Just ridiculous.

Tampa is forced to get rid of players after their Cup win because of a stagnant cap. Just like the Hawks were forced to do it three f***ing times on account of their players earning larger contracts than the Hawks could afford.

 

[Pez68]

Kane, Toews, Keith, Hjalmarsson, Crawford, Panarin, Teravanien, Saad, all still here, and it's 'tanking'.

Absurd.

You can't even keep your absurd rambling, coherent and consistent. Your initial post:

Imagine a world in which they started the full rebuild around Kane, Toews, Keith and Crawford in 2016 when it was clearly needed.

You're the one that suggested they start a "FULL REBUILD", around four players, after the Hawks just won a cup.

 

[JaegerDice]

You can't even keep your absurd rambling, coherent and consistent. Your initial post:

You're the one that suggested they start a "FULL REBUILD", around four players, after the Hawks just won a cup.

Fine, I used poor wording in my initial post.

Retool would have been better.

They didn't need a full rebuild in 2015. They did by 2017.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Fine, I used poor wording in my initial post.

Retool would have been better.

They didn't need a full rebuild in 2015. They did by 2017.

Jesus. These are two WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY different things...

They tried to retool and have obviously failed. Shit happens. Moving on. They retooled successfully two times... and failed on the third. Part of that has to do with the stars not being as big of stars anymore. It was inevitable.

You could have saved a lot of back and forth between us had you said retool and not rebuild...

 

[bwana63]

If Covid shuts down play, maybe the league will morph into a sim. The numbers guys would go wild.

 

[ChiHawks10]

If Covid shuts down play, maybe the league will morph into a sim. The numbers guys would go wild.

I'm not even against numbers. I think analytics have their place. It's a piece of the pie. A tool. But I think it only accounts for maybe 30-35% of what you need when it comes to hockey.

 

[Pez68]

Fine, I used poor wording in my initial post.

Retool would have been better.

They didn't need a full rebuild in 2015. They did by 2017.

There's no world in which Seabrook is traded in 2015. None. This alternate reality does not exist. The contract is terrible, but Seabrook being traded or walking was never on the table. Ever. It wasn't happening. He was a part of the core by every measurable indicator. As such, there's really no point discussing anything else.

The reality is, the core HASN'T BEEN GOOD ENOUGH, or healthy enough since 2015, to contend. This has been discussed ad nauseum. The caliber of players the Hawks lost to decline, retirement, or the salary cap over the last 5 years, don't grow on trees. Those that are out there, cost a lot of cap space. Cap space the Hawks don't have.

What is happening to the Hawks was inevitable in a cap world. Fresh off of a Stanley Cup victory, and what honestly could have, and should have been, three straight Stanley Cups.....? There is absolutely no justification for not going for it the next season. None. This entire argument is f***ing nonsense and hindsight bullshit. Bullshit that even YOU weren't spouting after the 2015 season. Because it's all HINDSIGHT.

Tampa's window will be effectively closed after this season, because of the salary cap and age. They have one cup to show for it...

 

[bwana63]

Tampa's window will be effectively closed after this season, because of the salary cap and age. They have one cup to show for it...

And we were a pubic hair away from 4.

 

[Hawkaholic]

Still hasnt answered who the Lightning are selling this offseason. Also, selling Stamkos after they literally just won the Cup with as little of contribution to it as possible, is not a good example to use to compare TBs situation to CHI.

No one in their right mind would have rebuilt or retooled in 2015, or 2016. Retooling after 2017 is kind of what they tried, but the GM failed hard, and he should pay for that.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

There's no world in which Seabrook is traded in 2015. None. This alternate reality does not exist. The contract is terrible, but Seabrook being traded or walking was never on the table. Ever. It wasn't happening. He was a part of the core by every measurable indicator. As such, there's really no point discussing anything else.

The reality is, the core HASN'T BEEN GOOD ENOUGH, or healthy enough since 2015, to contend. This has been discussed ad nauseum. The caliber of players the Hawks lost to decline, retirement, or the salary cap over the last 5 years, don't grow on trees. Those that are out there, cost a lot of cap space. Cap space the Hawks don't have.

What is happening to the Hawks was inevitable in a cap world. Fresh off of a Stanley Cup victory, and what honestly could have, and should have been, three straight Stanley Cups.....? There is absolutely no justification for not going for it the next season. None. This entire argument is f***ing nonsense and hindsight bullshit. Bullshit that even YOU weren't spouting after the 2015 season. Because it's all HINDSIGHT.

Tampa's window will be effectively closed after this season, because of the salary cap and age. They have one cup to show for it...

That is laughable claim considering the quality of core which includes young franchise talent like Vasilevskiy and quality of management who have proven they can draft/develop talent

 

[Pez68]

That is laughable claim considering the quality of core which includes young franchise talent like Vasilevskiy and quality of management who have proven they can draft/develop talent

They are severely cap f***ed, in a time when the cap will be stagnant for AT LEAST the next two seasons.

They have $57M tied up in just eight players, though 2022-2023(one of whom they waived).

Their "core" is all around 30 years old.

They just waived a player who has a $5M cap hit for the next four seasons.

Their window is closed.

 

[ChiHawks10]

They are severely cap f***ed, in a time when the cap will be stagnant for AT LEAST the next two seasons.

They have $57M tied up in just eight players, though 2022-2023(one of whom they waived).

Their "core" is all around 30 years old.

They just waived a player who has a $5M cap hit for the next four seasons.

Their window is closed.

I'd like this, but I can't anymore.

 

[Hawkaholic]

I dont think TBs window is closed, I mean, they are still going to be a top team, there aren't many teams out there that have a much better roster. They definitely have to draft right and make the right trades, but as long as they have Kucherov, Point, Hedman and Vaselevski, I think they will be a very good team still.

 

[Pez68]

I dont think TBs window is closed, I mean, they are still going to be a top team, there aren't many teams out there that have a much better roster. They definitely have to draft right and make the right trades, but as long as they have Kucherov, Point, Hedman and Vaselevski, I think they will be a very good team still.

I think the NHL has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt you need good depth players to win a cup. Their roster construction, much like the Hawks, does not allow that, unless they hit on a WHOLE BUNCH of young players. They will likely be a top team, but I do not see them as a contender going forward. Their depth is going to get eviscerated in the next season or two. They will be like the 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 Hawks.

 

[Hawkaholic]

I think the NHL has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt you need good depth players to win a cup. Their roster construction, much like the Hawks, does not allow that, unless they hit on a WHOLE BUNCH of young players. They will likely be a top team, but I do not see them as a contender going forward. Their depth is going to get eviscerated in the next season or two. They will be like the 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 Hawks.

It wont be easy, theyll have to sign some guys cheap that want that chance and hit on a couple depth pieces. Definitely not saying they are done or that they will win more Cups, but they will be competitive.

 

[Pez68]

It wont be easy, theyll have to sign some guys cheap that want that chance and hit on a couple depth pieces. Definitely not saying they are done or that they will win more Cups, but they will be competitive.

They will be competitive, sure. The same way the Hawks were between 2010 and 2013, IMO. We will see. That core is not as good as the Hawks' core during their prime.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

TB has been successful finding depth players to come in and support core so I dont see why that will be concern going forward

Also they have been appealing to vets on 1 yr deals as well in recent years and that should continue to an extent for depth purposes especially vets looking to latch on for a potential cup run

It also helps that Florida has no income taxes

 

[Fire Stan Bowman]

You don't think a big problem with the PP for the last 12 years has been everyone constantly standing around watching Kane with the puck? I mean... it's pretty damn obvious to anyone with eyes that's a problem, and has been for a long time. So I'm not sure what is dumb about it.

i agree with you to an extent, but it's literally the best option. no one else is a threat out there. even when they put kane on the left side and he doesnt touch the puck for half the pp and just waits for the back door its still complete dog shit. its gotta be easy to defend against when you know shots are only gonna come from 3 spots

 

[x Tame Impala]

JD isn't fully wrong here. The offseason after the 2015 Cup win was the beginning of a bad time period for Bowman and the Hawks. Sure, hindsight and all that but all within one offseason we traded Sharp and Saad and apparently according to most here on HF it was OBVIOUS that Seabrook was on the decline before the new contract.

Even if you think like I do, that there's no way Seabrook was going to be traded...b/c it would've been terrible PR for the Hawks, there is a point to be made that maybe there were enough signs out there signifying that the Hawks were going to be taking a step back from being a Cup-caliber team. And those signs were actually really accurate.

Don't forget how mediocre of a team we were that season. Toews started his first season after signing his contract giving him the highest AAV in the league by not even scoring 30 goals or 60 points in 80 games. Our roster was filled out with below-average players like: (Garbutt, Svedberg, Rozsival, TvR, extra-bad version of Gustaffson, bad version of Teravainen, Rasmussen, Mashinter, bad version of Danault, and A LOT of young players getting a dozen games or so up here who were learning the NHL game and not contributing much in the process.

The Hawks were propped up by Kane's best season of his career, Crawford playing really well, Panarin being a Calder winner, and Anisimov fitting that line like a glove. Statistically we were mediocre and so was our roster. We traded Saad and Sharp, Hossa was 36 years old, our 1C wasn't close to playing like one, our D corps was made up of Kieth, Hjalmarsson, Seabrook, and a bunch of shit. Not to mention our TDL acquisitions being a complete waste of assets and totally useless.

So yeah there's a lot of hindsight required here (especially with Toews' fall off) but less than some people think. The Hawks were never going to be a very good team that year

 

[ClydeLee]

How would trading Seabrook of been a PR disaster, they traded Sharp, as much of if not a more fan favorite.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

 

[Brightwing]

Cheap too.

 

[x Tame Impala]

I read that as “Dominik Kubalik to EDM” and almost spilled my rum.