Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5

[Hale The Villain]

Looks like Mark Stone is wolverine, having suddenly grown a new spleen just in time for the post-season. Vegas must have some compromising photos of a giddy Bettman to allow VGK to circumvent the cap year after year. More power to Vegas, but sucks for the rest of the league, especially for jabronies like Ottawa whose incompetent GM cost them a 1st by trying to hoodwink Vegas into taking a shitty Dadonov contract.

You do realize that last year the additions they fit in with Stone on LTIR was Blueger and Quick, right? Hardly the kind of elite talent that puts a team over the top.

This is the only year they've made a major addition (Hertl, Mantha) in expectation Stone would be out until the playoffs, which was reasonable considering he lacerated his spleen a little over a month ago.

 

[Agent Zub]

I hope you took those as friendly jabs only, certainly no offense intended! I love the guy too and do not see a lot of realistic options to fix the RD situation either. I'm really curious to see what Staios and Company do this summer.

lol i know. but i also know i annoy a lot of other people.

but talking hockey is never that serious to me. just a passion.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

lol i know. but i also know i annoy a lot of other people.

but talking hockey is never that serious to me. just a passion.

Ah, let em suffer. The team sucks and it's not like there's a long list of hot button news to discuss atm.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

The odds are still heavily in their favor to get in though. 4 games left, 1 more ROW, and just need 4 points. Less if STL doesn't run the table at 3-0.

You're right, but even if they make it in by a few wins, I think that is enough proof that this LTIR thing isn't as risk free as it's made out to be.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Vegas might miss the playoffs.

People overrated this loophole. It's difficult to pull off and it is not without risk.

Injuries are not black and white. They are shades of grey. If you want every NHL player who technically is hurt to have to sit out until they aren't hurt, the league would fold. Stone being cleared does not mean he isn't still injured. It just means his injury is at a place where he could still technically sit out, but the risk/reward of playoffs is worth it.

It's very rare for a team to be good enough to exploit LTIR of big stars without risking missing the playoffs and for big stars to have injuries that line up well enough to be exploited.

The odds are still heavily in their favor to get in though. 4 games left, 1 more ROW, and just need 4 points. Less if STL doesn't run the table at 3-0.

Where was VGK in the standings when Stone was placed on LTIR though? It was some time ago I think, and I don’t remember. If they were so far ahead of those closest conference teams, then I suppose the risk was minimal.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

You're right, but even if they make it in by a few wins, I think that is enough proof that this LTIR thing isn't as risk free as it's made out to be.

For sure it carries risk, and no path is a guaranteed one for success, as Vegas themselves have found out in their short history already, but every advantage helps.

The owner in Ottawa had dumb blanket policies restricting the teams opportunities, so we know how much it can hurt a franchise to restrict yourself from things other teams are willing to exploit. GM's aren't doing their job right if they aren't using everything available to their advantage, or at least looking in to it.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

They'd send him packing in a second if they could even going on a run, they know they're at the end of their runway.

They will have to retain and take dumps to move him, which they aren't likely to want to do.

The Sharks took ~15 million in dead cap in Hoffman, Granlund and Ruuta, retained 1.5 million per year over 4 years, and got a 1st.

The Pens also had to retain 25% on Petry for 2 years, and give another 2 million to the Habs to make it work. As well as a 2nd round pick to make the Habs accept.

In a never again going to happen career year, in order to facilitate a trade the Pens had to unload ~18 million in cap. They had to find another team willing to take their cap dumps, and the Sharks had to take on ~15 million, retain 1.5 for 4 years, and all they got in return was a protected 1st. His contract is so negative it took the best offensive season from a D in the past 40 years and turned his return into 20 million in dead cap dumps and a protected 1st. Now it's just that negative contract.

The Pens won't be excited to move him, they would get absolutely nothing positive in return, and would have to take on ~15 million in dead cap in order to make it happen, but they will likely have to.

They'll be looking to trade him no doubt. They don't want to be paying the 25ish million they owe him.

The Pens would be lucky to get 10 million in dead cap and give up valuable picks to get rid of Karlsson, teams aren't going to be jumping through the gigantic amount of hoops needed to facilitate a trade for Karlsson.

Do you think they acquired him just for half a season? He’s there as long as they make the playoffs and Crosby is capable

 

[BondraTime]

Do you think they acquired him just for half a season? He’s there as long as they make the playoffs and Crosby is capable

They acquired him for the last hoorah with Crosby, Malkin and Letang. It was some poor planning by Dubas, and now he’s saddled with the contract, if he could move it, which I don’t think he can, he would.

That hoorah is here. There is nothing but downhill from here with the Pens, Dubas knows this which is why he was a seller at the deadline.

 

[bicboi64]

They acquired him for the last hoorah with Crosby, Malkin and Letang. It was some poor planning by Dubas, and now he’s saddled with the contract, if he could move it, which I don’t think he can, he would.

That hoorah is here. There is nothing but downhill from here with the Pens, Dubas knows this which is why he was a seller at the deadline.

To be fair, they didn't give up much for EK. Just a lot of spare parts that would have been gone next season and given Dubas a lot of capspace to play wtih. But at the same time, the prospect of having a talent like EK where he doesn't have to be the main guy seemed like a decent risk.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

They acquired him for the last hoorah with Crosby, Malkin and Letang. It was some poor planning by Dubas, and now he’s saddled with the contract, if he could move it, which I don’t think he can, he would.

That hoorah is here. There is nothing but downhill from here with the Pens, Dubas knows this which is why he was a seller at the deadline.

It's not like they're turning it around another way though. What urgency could there be? The goose is cooked for their core 3, Crosby is the only one truly bringing it like they used to, and they're about to embark on potentially a long road to rebuild, so whether they hang on to Karlsson to give them their farewell tour like the other 3, it isn't going to matter with their timeline. I don't see how that cap hit matters basically one lick at this point for them unless they're under the illusion they can still contend with this group, which seems to be the mistake everyone is saying they should learn from, because realistically, Malkin and Letang's game is in the same place as Karlsson's, and they have some other guys like Carter on the doorstep to retirement or Smith likely to leave, etc.

 

[BondraTime]

It's not like they're turning it around another way though. What urgency could there be? The goose is cooked for their core 3, Crosby is the only one truly bringing it like they used to, and they're about to embark on potentially a long road to rebuild, so whether they hang on to Karlsson to give them their farewell tour like the other 3, it isn't going to matter with their timeline. I don't see how that cap hit matters basically one lick at this point for them unless they're under the illusion they can still contend with this group, which seems to be the mistake everyone is saying they should learn from.

Cap hit isn’t a big thing for the Pens, they’re about to embark on a 6+ year, gruesome rebuild in the next year or two. Hopefully they aren’t bailed out by a MAF/Malkin/Crosby/Staal trurnaround like the early 2000’s.

If they don’t need to pay the 25 million over 3 years they owe him, they would likely happily part ways for nothing in return, but they are extremely unlikely to find a trade where they aren’t taking a ton of bad salary. And not Chabot bad salary, but 10+ million of Korpisalo type bad salary

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Cap hit isn’t a big thing for the Pens, they’re about to embark on a 6+ year, gruesome rebuild in the next year or two. Hopefully they aren’t bailed out by a MAF/Malkin/Crosby/Staal trurnaround like the early 2000’s.

If they don’t need to pay the 25 million over 3 years they owe him, they would likely happily part ways for nothing in return, but they are extremely unlikely to find a trade where they aren’t taking a ton of bad salary. And not Chabot bad salary, but 10+ million of Korpisalo type bad salary

I guess if it becomes a thing where costs are a consideration, it makes more sense to me, but I assume they're a cap team as long as the big 3 hang on. Letang and Malkin likely get to retire there regardless of their performance and wise or not, I'm thinking they're going to kick the can on the rebuild and try to be as competitive as possible as long as Crosby stays there. If by chance Crosby entertains leaving, that would be a pretty big variable, but I don't see that happening. They don't make themselves better by doing what you allude to with taking albatrosses like Korpisalo that they can't even put in the lineup.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

They acquired him for the last hoorah with Crosby, Malkin and Letang. It was some poor planning by Dubas, and now he’s saddled with the contract, if he could move it, which I don’t think he can, he would.

That hoorah is here. There is nothing but downhill from here with the Pens, Dubas knows this which is why he was a seller at the deadline.

He was also probably not expecting a push. If they start next season well he won’t be selling.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

They acquired him for the last hoorah with Crosby, Malkin and Letang. It was some poor planning by Dubas, and now he’s saddled with the contract, if he could move it, which I don’t think he can, he would.

That hoorah is here. There is nothing but downhill from here with the Pens, Dubas knows this which is why he was a seller at the deadline.

I kind of agree that they went for a last hurrah and they might actually get it. I wouldn't want to play that team if I was a #1 seed.

As for downhill from here? I'm not THAT sure. They got some ready-ish prospects at the deadline. They might be able to maneuver some of that into a decent team next year.

Crosby (obviously) and Karlsson still have gas in the tank. Probably not enough next year but I wouldn't bet against either of those guys.

We should not get Karlsson though. LOL. Unless it's at a ridiculously reduced price.

 

[milkbag]

Vegas might miss the playoffs.

People overrated this loophole. It's difficult to pull off and it is not without risk.

Injuries are not black and white. They are shades of grey. If you want every NHL player who technically is hurt to have to sit out until they aren't hurt, the league would fold. Stone being cleared does not mean he isn't still injured. It just means his injury is at a place where he could still technically sit out, but the risk/reward of playoffs is worth it.

It's very rare for a team to be good enough to exploit LTIR of big stars without risking missing the playoffs and for big stars to have injuries that line up well enough to be exploited.

I'll eat a whole raw onion on video if Vegas misses the playoffs. There's no way Bettmans darlings lose face after their big loophole acquisitions.

 

[Senovision]

I'll eat a whole raw onion on video if Vegas misses the playoffs. There's no way Bettmans darlings lose face after their big loophole acquisitions.

Same with Pittsburgh. One of Bettmans darlings.
After all we can't have Sid missing the playoffs two years in a row now can we Gary?

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

I kind of agree that they went for a last hurrah and they might actually get it. I wouldn't want to play that team if I was a #1 seed.

As for downhill from here? I'm not THAT sure. They got some ready-ish prospects at the deadline. They might be able to maneuver some of that into a decent team next year.

Crosby (obviously) and Karlsson still have gas in the tank. Probably not enough next year but I wouldn't bet against either of those guys.

We should not get Karlsson though. LOL. Unless it's at a ridiculously reduced price.

Chabot (8Mx4)
Korpisalo (Bought out by Pittsburgh)
Total = 12M out

Karlsson (10Mx3)
Acciari (2M x2)
Total = 12M out

Both teams get a change of scenery move between Karlsson and Chabot. Ottawa gets a player who is highly marketable to their fanbase in case Tkachuk uses his 2025 NMC as leverage to get traded anytime in the next year.

Karlsson to Chabot is close enough to a lateral move fit wise, and nobody is taking Chabot without money being held by Ottawa. So it doesn't change that we need big hard nosed defensive defenseman. It's a lateral move (role wise) in addition to finding a LHD or RHD who fits that mould.

Pittsburgh frees up 3.42M. Assuming Acciari was going to be on their roster, deduct 775k for a replacement body from that. It's still roughly 2.7M. They switch Karlsson for Chabot, who is still perceived to be a star by the general public. Especially if they make the playoffs and that 1st they swapped for a high 3rd is in the 20-30 range, they come out smelling like roses to have dumped a bunch of cap for a late 1st, rented Karlsson for a year, and then swapped him for a younger top pairing defenseman when it didn't work out.

Ottawa is the only team in the league who would take Karlsson. He has additional off-ice value to the franchise that he doesn't have to any other team. Ignoring the chaos that bringing the former captain back to a room with a new (and possibly insecure) leadership structure could bring, doing some sort of cap neutral swap for Chabot is the only way it makes sense.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Same with Pittsburgh. One of Bettmans darlings.
After all we can't have Sid missing the playoffs two years in a row now can we Gary?

They are 7-0-3 in their last 10.

While I don't doubt that there is probably a bias among league officials to highly marketable institutions like Crosby, getting 17 of a possible 20 points down the stretch puts the playoff berth on Pittsburgh.

Additionally, Detroit, Washington, and Philadelphia all shit the bed. It is the perfect situation for Pittsburgh, where everybody competing for that last wild card spot dropped the ball.

 

[Agent Zub]

Feel like there's a strong chance of Pittsburgh being even better next year than this year.

They will free up money like Carter and just that is a huge upgrade. They will be able to graduate some prospects giving them fresh legs which imo is their biggest weakness. Also Dubas gets a lot of hate but if there's one thing everyone can agree on is that he is really good at finding effective depth pieces.

At the same time, all of the big guys played full seasons this year, who knows if that happens again. Maybe they are all just healthy or maybe they got lucky.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Feel like there's a strong chance of Pittsburgh being even better next year than this year.

They will free up money like Carter and just that is a huge upgrade. They will be able to graduate some prospects giving them fresh legs which imo is their biggest weakness. Also Dubas gets a lot of hate but if there's one thing everyone can agree on is that he is really good at finding effective depth pieces.

At the same time, all of the big guys played full seasons this year, who knows if that happens again. Maybe they are all just healthy or maybe they got lucky.

If they trade Karlsson, it won't be a rebuilding move.

It will be to free up cap to add players for Crosby/Malkin that they think are more effective than Karlsson.

The problem is that no one is going to want Karlsson without extreme cap considerations. So they are going to have to find a hockey trade for another player who they feel is a better fit, or who they feel creates a net benefit by clearing up cap. Look at all the cap and bad contracts San Jose had to take back just to get a projected late 1st swapped for a projected high 3rd, and then consider that Karlsson was coming off 100 point season - this season he has regressed back to something closer to where he previously was when he was a complete albatross.

With Pittsburgh potentially making the playoffs, maybe things change if they go on a deep run, but I think most people are assuming Karlsson isn't a fit based on the rumours (or media speculation if rumours is too strong) coming out a month or so back about Karlsson possibly being moved.

If I was Pittsburgh and I could swap Karlsson for Chabot, with maybe some moving parts to make it cap in/out, I would do it. You're still getting an overpaid 20 minute+ defenseman who can play a similar role, except Chabot doesn't have the signing bonuses or the NMC so he is a more dynamic piece long term. He plays on their roster now, and then if they decide to rebuild in 2-3 years they should be able to get assets for him (even if they have to retain).

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

To NJD:
Chychrun (1yr x 4.6m; ext. 5yrs x 6.5m)

To OTT:
Marino (3yrs x 4.4m)

Who says no?

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

To NJD:
Chychrun (1yr x 4.6m; ext. 5yrs x 6.5m)

To OTT:
Marino (3yrs x 4.4m)

Who says no?

We were tied to Marino the summer before we traded for Chychrun. The price for Marino was very low at that time due to the salary cap being flat, and I assume Marino being unproven outside of Pittsburgh. It reminds me a bit of Demelo breaking out here as a top 4 defenseman, but going for very little. That was the summer we brought in Ryan Bowness, so there was possible ties to Marino because Bowness came from Pittsburgh.

I suspect the reason we didn't trade for him was budget related. We had to dump Zaitsev to acquire Chychrun. It's possible that the price to dump Zaitsev was higher in the summer.

I wouldn't be upset with a Chychrun for Marino swap, but if Chychrun is willing to sign an extension as part of a trade and is open to multiple destinations, it seems like it would make more sense to trade Chychrun and then go after Marino using picks+prospects.

In short, I wouldn't be upset about a 1 for 1 swap because Marino fits almost exactly what we need - but without knowing what his actual value is league wide I would feel a bit underwhelmed because it seems like Chychrun is the sexier name who should have more value.

It's just a bit of a tough pill to swallow having given up 12th overall and three 2nd round picks (one to CHI) to acquire Chychrun.

I assume NJD doesn't need Chychrun, but if it were a 3 way deal by proxy (Chychrun for a 1st++, picks+prospects to NJD for Marino), I assume they would say yes if he was the defenseman they decide they need to move on from to make room in their system.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

To NJD:
Chychrun (1yr x 4.6m; ext. 5yrs x 6.5m)

To OTT:
Marino (3yrs x 4.4m)

Who says no?

On name I would expect something extra coming from New Jersey

 

[Micklebot]

To NJD:
Chychrun (1yr x 4.6m; ext. 5yrs x 6.5m)

To OTT:
Marino (3yrs x 4.4m)

Who says no?

Do the NJD need an offensive LHD?

Certainly something a deal could be worked around if they think Nemec is ready.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Do the NJD need an offensive LHD?

Certainly something a deal could be worked around if they think Nemec is ready.

Nemec is ready for sure.

They don't really need either guy, but if NJD sees Chychrun as an upgrade over Marino that might be enough to get it done.