Confirmed with Link: Flyers Trade Jakub Voracek To Columbus For Cam Atkinson

[deadhead]

Fit is a matter of putting lines together but also style.

Voracek is an excellent playmaker, but he has to control the puck to be effective, which means he's a bad fit with a center who is "puck centric." Frost might as well stay in the AHL if he's not going to be the primary puck handler on his line - because his primary value would be as a playmaking center.

Which is why Voracek fit Couts but not Hayes. And probably not Frost. Brassard??? Maybe.
Voracek, after one good year in 2019-20, reverted back to his subpar defense last season and at his age, the leopard doesn't change his spots.
He has a below average shot, and isn't comfortable in front of the net, so forget the PF role.
To get maximum value out of Voracek you want to put him on a scoring line with two scorers and let him "QB."

The advantage of Atkinson is you can move him around the top 9, and he'd probably be effective on a 4th line, he's an excellent PK guy, doesn't need the puck and adds speed. He's not as talented as Voracek, but easier to fit on different lines - as a plethora of young RWs start to arrive that has value (Allison, Foerster, Brink, maybe JOB, Tuomaala in a few years).

 

[Shrike]

I have absolutely no clue what “he wasn’t a good fit on this team” means. I keep seeing it and it just doesn’t make any sense at all.

What team can’t fit a 60-80 point player who is big, strong, can skate, drives play, creates offense, and can carry a line?

A team coached by Dave Hakstol

 

[Rebels57]

I'm legitimately curious here because i dont visit the sub-forums for other teams: Do other teams fanbases drag players they trade away to make themselves feel better about the trade, or is that exclusive to Flyers forums?

Jake was easily a top 10 forward in Flyers history, and its honestly not really close. Was he perfect? Absolutely not, but the guy was an absolute machine for an entire decade while he was here. I dont understand the need for revisionist history because he didnt bring us a cup. This fanbase was all aboard the shipping out Carter and Richards of the worlds and were happy to claim they were glad to be rid of "High and Wide" Carter and now hes being penciled into top 10 lists? I dont get it.

You can recognize that a player was great even though they are no longer on your team. It isnt some weird rule of fanhood that you arent allowed to appreciate what a player did just because they are no longer on your team and didnt achieve the penultimate version of 'success' while here.

Yes, absolutely lol

Also, who would he be above in the 11 forwards I listed earlier?

 

[Rebels57]

Pelle Eklund
Ron Sutter
Rich Sutter
Rick Tocchet
Ilks Sinsalo
Paul Holmgren
Danny Briere
Simon Gagne
Murray Craven
Bob Dornhoeffer
Easy arguments for most of these guys. And how about the fact that both Mike Richards and Jeff Carter took us deeper in the playoffs than Jake Voracek even sniffed.

From this list i'd only consider Tocchet and Gagne.

 

[Striiker]

A team coached by Dave Hakstol

Well then that’s a coach problem, not a Jake problem.

 

[Shrike]

Tocchet is probably the only one with an argument for being better than Voracek at his best, peak and prime, as a Flyer. Almost none of the others have an objective argument. And he did not have the peak Jake did.

Gagne was great... but he had 1-2 seasons where he was a top ~20 fwd in the league as a Flyer.
Briere was great... but he had one season where he was a top ~20 fwd in the league too.

Jake had 2 seasons where he was a top 10 fwd in the league.

Holmgren? Sinisalo? The Sutters? Dornhoeffer? Craven? All great Flyers but Jake's worst season as a Flyers was arguably better than all these guys BEST seasons as a Flyers (apart from Dornhoeffer who had one season where in that 1st line tier) best when look at era.


Most of these guys never came top 50 in league scoring for the Flyers when Jake was top 15 over a DECADE. Some of them were middle sixers, let alone top liners. But just happened to play in very high scoring eras.

Tocchet is probably the only one with an argument for being better than Voracek at his best, peak and prime, as a Flyer. Almost none of the others have an objective argument. And he did not have the peak Jake did.

Gagne was great... but he had 1-2 seasons where he was a top ~20 fwd in the league as a Flyer.
Briere was great... but he had one season where he was a top ~20 fwd in the league too.

Jake had 2 seasons where he was a top 10 fwd in the league.

Holmgren? Sinisalo? The Sutters? Dornhoeffer? Craven? All great Flyers but Jake's worst season as a Flyers was arguably better than all these guys BEST seasons as a Flyers (apart from Dornhoeffer who had one season where in that 1st line tier) best when look at era.


Most of these guys never came top 50 in league scoring for the Flyers when Jake was top 15 over a DECADE. Some of them were middle sixers, let alone top liners. But just happened to play in very high scoring eras.

When did Jake’s Greatness ever get us passed the 1st round.

Jake Voracek as a Flyer was the definition of empty points.

I’m trying to remember his defining moments as a Flyer…. Plenty of Giroux and Simmonds and Couts during his tenure. I remember when Jake got Kronwalled.

 

[Starat327]

woof.

 

[Shrike]

But we aren’t talking about most talented, we’re talking about greatest contributors. Best Flyers forward is more than a skills competition, it’s about who’s contributions got results.

 

[Starat327]

Yes, absolutely lol

Also, who would he be above in the 11 forwards I listed earlier?

Perhaps its recency bias (alternatively, it could also be an inability to separate the eras and nostalgia), but im sure you could make an argument for anyone in the 9-11 spots you listed.

 

[Striiker]

When did Jake’s Greatness ever get us passed the 1st round.

Jake Voracek as a Flyer was the definition of empty points.

I’m trying to remember his defining moments as a Flyer…. Plenty of Giroux and Simmonds and Couts during his tenure. I remember when Jake got Kronwalled.

Then the issue here is your understanding of the sport and a poor memory.

By this standard, McDavid isn’t great because the Oilers haven’t won anything with him. Except we know that’s not true because hockey is a team sport and even the greatest players need help around them.

 

[Rebels57]

Perhaps its recency bias (alternatively, it could also be an inability to separate the eras and nostalgia), but im sure you could make an argument for anyone in the 9-11 spots you listed.

I don't think there's much argument for Voracek over any of those 3.

And holy shit, I forgot Rod Brind'Amour. That bumps Jake down.

I'd put Jake at 13 just ahead of Tocchet and Gagne.

 

[Shrike]

Then the issue here is your understanding of the sport and a bad memory.

By this standard, McDavid isn’t great because the Oilers haven’t won anything with him. Except we know that’s not true because hockey is a team sport and even the greatest players need help around them.

No I’m saying he is listed at different spots when it comes to most talented player on a team as opposed to greatest player on a team. McDavid is more talented than Jarri Kurri, but on a list of greatest Oilers Forwards, Kurri comes before McDavid. Same goes for Mark Messier.

what you can do matters, but what you HAVE done matters a little more.

 

[Starat327]

I don't think there's much argument for Voracek over any of those 3.

And holy shit, I forgot Rod Brind'Amour. That bumps Jake down to #12.

I'd put Jake at 13 just ahead of Tocchet and Gagne.

I dont have the time/energy combo to verify it statistically, not that it matters, or that statistics are the be-all, end-all. Maybe it was a bit hyperbolic to say not even close, but I dont think top 10 is a stretch.

 

[Striiker]

No I’m saying he is listed at different spots when it comes to most talented player on a team as opposed to greatest player on a team. McDavid is more talented than Jarri Kurri, but on a list of greatest Oilers Forwards, Kurri comes before McDavid. Same goes for Mark Messier.

If we’re using team accomplishments to decide where to rank individuals then wouldnt a 4th liner on the cup winning team be “greater” than Lindros or Giroux?

Individuals can only be judged by the things they have control over: Their own play. Jake wasn’t the GM or coach and he can’t control his teammates, so any team related problems aren't his fault. He did his job and he did it well.

 

[deadhead]

Of course, that was then, this is now.
What Jake did in the past is irrelevant to whether the trade made sense now.

 

[Starat327]

If we’re using team accomplishments to decide where to rank individuals then wouldnt a 4th liner on the cup winning team be “greater” than Lindros or Giroux?

Individuals can only be judged by the things they have control over: Their own play. Jake wasn’t the GM or coach and he can’t control his teammates, so any team related problems aren't his fault.

Only if you can remember that one time said 4th liner had a massive hit that wont he cup.

 

[Shrike]

If we’re using team accomplishments to decide where to rank individuals then wouldnt a 4th liner on the cup winning team be “greater” than Lindros or Giroux?

Individuals can only be judged by the things they have control over: Their own play. Jake wasn’t the GM or coach and he can’t control his teammates, so any team related problems aren't his fault.

Life ain’t fair sometimes

 

[Striiker]

Only if you can remember that one time said 4th liner had a massive hit that wont he cup.

You mean kinda like that Thompson fight that won us the Seattle game?

 

[Striiker]

Life ain’t fair sometimes

Oh, so you acknowledge you’re being unfair with your ranking then?

What the hell are we even doing here?

 

[Starat327]

You mean kinda like that Thompson fight that won us the Seattle game?

Flyers Goal scored by # 157, "Sticking up for your teammates!"

 

[Beef Invictus]

But we aren’t talking about most talented, we’re talking about greatest contributors. Best Flyers forward is more than a skills competition, it’s about who’s contributions got results.

Goals and assists aren't results?

 

[Shrike]

Oh, so you acknowledge you’re being unfair with your ranking then?

What the hell are we even doing here?

I’ll need you to explain to Mark Messier that McDavid is a Greater Oiler Forward than he is because McDavid can dangle yo!

It all matters, but what your talking about is a measure of talent. It’s like saying who has the best player ratings in ea nhl. There is more to being great than just how much talent you have.

 

[Starat327]

ITT I learned that Marcel Dionne sucks because he never won a cup. And when there fewer teams to play against, to boot!

 

[deadhead]

I’ll need you to explain to Mark Messier that McDavid is Greater Oiler Forward than he was because McDavid can dangle yo!

It all matters, but what your talking about is a measure of talent. It’s like saying who has the best player ratings in ea nhl. There is more to being great than just how much talent you have.

Well, I'm sure McDavid might wish he had the talent surround him that Gretzky had on those Edmonton teams.

 

[Shrike]

Well, I'm sure McDavid might wish he had the talent surround him that Gretzky had on those Edmonton teams.

If wishing made it happen we’d all be Stanley cup champs and billionaires.