Post-Game Talk: Flyers @ Rangers - November 28

[DanielBrassard]

It's very disingenuous to say shot attempt stats have nothing to do with zone entries when 99% of shot attempts come in the zone. This is especially true for the Rangers who really aren't a forechecking team and carry across the line a lot.

Regardless, on my eyes alone our centers all suck at them. There's not a team in the league that looks as cringe-worthy as the Rangers going into the zone.

Especially since its been proven that controlled entries lead to a lot more shots then any other entry.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Here's the difference. Our Goaltender doesn't score goals like he makes saves to keep the puck out of the net.

Last time I checked, Hank wasn't traded today, so your point is invalid, even if what you are saying about the defense is true.

 

[Tawnos]

Coach said it finally. Maybe the world can catch on now.

The world knew it. Just because some people around here wanted to paint with bright colors doesn't make it any kind of a consensus. Most of us have been saying all along that the team hasn't been playing that well. At most, we were unsure if the issues stemmed from poor player performances or game situation and would lean one way or the other.

Some games, the quality of saves Hank had to make was definitely overstated, but there's never been any doubt that most of the rest of the roster was starting out slow. Hank has been amazing, but there was no way he was going to keep it up.

Nothing like a little false "I told you so" to brighten up the day.

I also would like to point out that, long-term, some adversity and struggles are a GOOD thing.

 

[The Undertaker]

Glad I missed this one. Nice to hear McIlrath had another monster hit and a beatdown.

 

[aufheben]

 

[AKrangerfan]

Keep McIlrath in, sit Stall for Boyle.

Afternoon games may suck for the players but didn't seem to affect the other team much.

We did outplay them in the first period. They made adjustments and came out to play in the second. We didn't.

The only good thing I see is that Carolina is up next.

 

[Siamese Dream]

It's very disingenuous to say shot attempt stats have nothing to do with zone entries when 99% of shot attempts come in the zone. This is especially true for the Rangers who really aren't a forechecking team and carry across the line a lot.

Regardless, on my eyes alone our centers all suck at them. There's not a team in the league that looks as cringe-worthy as the Rangers going into the zone.

But there are many other factors that affect whether someone has positive or negative possession. Half of which are down the opposite end of the ice. You cannot use someone's possession numbers to prove how good they are at zone entries.

Possession in itself is a flawed statistic since it's not really even possession and is based purely on shot attempts. Possession in soccer means the amount of time a team is actually in possession of the ball, which is what it should mean in hockey, there's no reason it couldn't be possible to have that statistic.

I've seen you contradicting yourself often on the main boards. You rag on Girardi and other Rangers D because of their bad possession stats, then when people on the main boards have the audacity to criticize the whole team's possession numbers you're there straight away to say how it's meaningless because you have to watch the games and see they are a pass-first team.

 

[Inferno]

Coach said it finally. Maybe the world can catch on now.

yep...like I said...they've sucked more than they've been good this season.

 

[Gert B Frobe]

Possession stats have absolutely nothing to do with zone entry ability. You can get those good possession numbers from dumping the puck in, and/or forechecking and forcing turnovers. You don't have to carry the puck into the zone to then get shot attempts. Not to mention there's 5 skaters on the ice, you could be great at zone entries but if your linemates aren't then that's going to affect your numbers. And possession is also heavily based on what you do in your own zone. You cannot measure zone entry ability with possession stats.

You can only measure zone entry ability with the eye test, I don't think there is anywhere that keeps tabs on how many times a season a player gained the zone with the puck on his stick. I know from the eye test Hayes is usually bad at zone entries because he often tries to dangle around players with too many moves. I know Nash is good at zone entries because he skates in a straight line and protects the puck with his body. I knew Sean Avery was bad at zone entries because he didn't know the offside rule.

Possession stats are absolutely influenced by zone entries. So dump and chase is a better idea? Can successful dump and chase attempts be measured? You did say that zone entries can't be measured, and have nothing to do with possession, but dumping and forechecking works better, and you know this how again?

 

[Mac n Gs]

Maybe this will be a blessing in disguise and it'll lead to AV trying different things. Our entire lineup could use a change with lines and defensive pairings.

 

[Revel]

First game I've missed this year. Sounds like I'm the lucky one. Had it on the radio in a Philly area Hotel room, but fell asleep 10 minutes in.

 

[Machinehead]

But there are many other factors that affect whether someone has positive or negative possession. Half of which are down the opposite end of the ice. You cannot use someone's possession numbers to prove how good they are at zone entries.

Possession in itself is a flawed statistic since it's not really even possession and is based purely on shot attempts. Possession in soccer means the amount of time a team is actually in possession of the ball, which is what it should mean in hockey, there's no reason it couldn't be possible to have that statistic.

I've seen you contradicting yourself often on the main boards. You rag on Girardi and other Rangers D because of their bad possession stats, then when people on the main boards have the audacity to criticize the whole team's possession numbers you're there straight away to say how it's meaningless because you have to watch the games and see they are a pass-first team.

Offensively the Rangers are a pass-first team and they're able to score despite not having great corsi because of it. Because of our system, I wouldn't expect to be a top 10 team in corsi even with a great defense. And we would win being 11-15th in corsi. That's what I've said.

But we're 29th in corsi because our defense is garbage. Fine me saying anything about our defense in past year other than it's garbage and I'll be very impressed.

 

[Zucc36]

Worst game of the season, by far. Looked like a bunch of junior players out there, every single one of them.

Just gotta love Staal´s contract.....

 

[Zucc36]

Maybe this will be a blessing in disguise and it'll lead to AV trying different things. Our entire lineup could use a change with lines and defensive pairings.

That might be. But in this game it wouldn´t have worked. To me the whole group actually looked tired and uninspired. This was the 6th game in 10 days, and a back to back game. At this level this is of course no excuse, but I suspect this could be one of the reasons.

There were so many turnovers, I lost count. When chasing the puck in the zone, I had a feeling the Flyers beet them 9 out of 10 times. The playmakers, especially Zucc, played a really bad game. A ton of mistakes, bad passes, and just a really really poor game. He has hit a drought, with 4 straight games without a point. He has to step it up.

Brassard had a better game, but not at all acceptable. I don´t even have to mention the defense.

 

[Loff]

First period was okay. Then everybody, except for Raanta, turned into thrash basically. Even Zucc looked off.

And the loss to Boston stings extra right now. Should have been a win. Time to wake up.

D-Mac needs to stay. Boyle and Staal can rotate. Never thought I'd want Staal scratched, but he's just brutal.

 

[Siamese Dream]

Possession stats are absolutely influenced by zone entries. So dump and chase is a better idea? Can successful dump and chase attempts be measured? You did say that zone entries can't be measured, and have nothing to do with possession, but dumping and forechecking works better, and you know this how again?

They are influenced by it a little bit, but not enough to directly relate a players possession stats with their zone entry ability. They could be great at zone entries but terrible in their own end, making their possession stats bad. Possession isn't some magical measure for everything in hockey. Dump and chase is a better idea in certain situations, such as if you've got certain fast forward lines matched up against certain D pairings.

I never said that they can't be measured, just that they aren't currently measured.

 

[Vickers8]

This dangerous style of play with the opposition controlling the puck in our zone for long periods of time each game came back to bite us in the ass finally, we need to attack more and keep the puck out of our zone

 

[bigbuffalo313]

Where are we in goals against per game?

Would you consider this a good defense?

Dan Girardi-Marc Staal
Fedor Tyutin-Michal Rozsival
Paul Mara-Jason Strudwick/Marek Malik

How about this one?

Dan Girardi-Marc Staal
Wade Redden-Michal Rozsival
Paul Mara-Dmitri Kalinin? (Wasn't entirely sure on the final defenseman for this year)

 

[Tawnos]

Would you consider this a good defense?

Dan Girardi-Marc Staal
Fedor Tyutin-Michal Rozsival
Paul Mara-Jason Strudwick/Marek Malik

How about this one?

Dan Girardi-Marc Staal
Wade Redden-Michal Rozsival
Paul Mara-Dmitri Kalinin? (Wasn't entirely sure on the final defenseman for this year)

Both groups highly underrated by Rangers fans. Neither group had a legitimate top pairing D, but both had a pretty good top-4 and at least one solid 3rd pair guy.

Also, Renneys ultra conservative system helped.

 

[Megustaelhockey]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1989989