Pre-Game Talk: Flyers @ Jets - Feb 12 7PM

[King Woodballs]

Bogo back tuesday would be great too

 

[TroubaFan1]

Bogo back tuesday would be great too

It definatly would be great! But I just dont see it happening on tuesday, im guessing friday.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

He's not 20 years old. He played 4 years in college and a season and a half in the AHL, being an all-star both years. He's paid his dues as far as I'm concerned. Are we going to let our prospects "bake" until they are 25 or 26 now? It's not like he just turned pro this month.

Maybe the sample size is small but I see a player that is good enough and confident enough to be in the NHL. He's got nothing to prove in the AHL.

^ This x 2. There really isn't anything magical about developing in the AHL. In fact, if you're getting similar minutes and opportunities and you aren't a liability to your team, the NHL is far superior for development, which is reflected in their budgets for training and coaching. There isn't anything that can prepare you more for the NHL than....the NHL. Obviously, Redmond wouldn't see the top pairing minutes but thats no reason to send him down - Bogo, Hainsey and Stuart don't either with a full lineup.

Redmond's play has been siginficantly better than Clitsome and noticeably better than Postma (everyone remembers the Bozak giveaway, but there is usually one of those a game and about 30% the time they end up in the back of our net.)

IMO, the only argument for sending Redmond down is financial at this point. We have $12M of cap space so thats not even part of the equation. Redmond is on a two-way contract, whereas Postma and Clitsome are on one-way deals. Keep in mind that we only have 21 of 23 spots filled on our active roster, so we can keep all of them up in the NHL. I've worked out the financial cost of keeping Redmond and scratching Clitsome. It works out to about $960k (incremental value of Redmonds NHL contract + value of Clitsome's contract pro-rated for 37 games).

Keeping Redmond up sends a powerful message throughout the organization and to all of our prospects: if you get an opportunity and you shine and outplay roster players, you stay. Its a Meritocracy.

Sending Redmond down after the way he's played sends the worst possible message to our prospects, especially given that a) we didn't even invite Machachek or Maceneaur to camp and b) we didn't really give Scheifele a fair shake.

 

[sipowicz]

He's not 20 years old. He played 4 years in college and a season and a half in the AHL, being an all-star both years. He's paid his dues as far as I'm concerned. Are we going to let our prospects "bake" until they are 25 or 26 now? It's not like he just turned pro this month.

Maybe the sample size is small but I see a player that is good enough and confident enough to be in the NHL. He's got nothing to prove in the AHL.

I think your right, if he can play in the NHL he should stay. Scheff was sent to the OHL to save a year on his contract, no one can tell me Wellwood or Wright bring more to the Jets than Scheff.

 

[Gm0ney]

^ This x 2. There really isn't anything magical about developing in the AHL. In fact, if you're getting similar minutes and opportunities and you aren't a liability to your team, the NHL is far superior for development, which is reflected in their budgets for training and coaching. There isn't anything that can prepare you more for the NHL than....the NHL. Obviously, Redmond wouldn't see the top pairing minutes but thats no reason to send him down - Bogo, Hainsey and Stuart don't either with a full lineup.

Redmond's play has been siginficantly better than Clitsome and noticeably better than Postma (everyone remembers the Bozak giveaway, but there is usually one of those a game and about 30% the time they end up in the back of our net.)

IMO, the only argument for sending Redmond down is financial at this point. We have $12M of cap space so thats not even part of the equation. Redmond is on a two-way contract, whereas Postma and Clitsome are on one-way deals. Keep in mind that we only have 21 of 23 spots filled on our active roster, so we can keep all of them up in the NHL. I've worked out the financial cost of keeping Redmond and scratching Clitsome. It works out to about $960k (incremental value of Redmonds NHL contract + value of Clitsome's contract pro-rated for 37 games).

Keeping Redmond up sends a powerful message throughout the organization and to all of our prospects: if you get an opportunity and you shine and outplay roster players, you stay. Its a Meritocracy.

Sending Redmond down after the way he's played sends the worst possible message to our prospects, especially given that a) we didn't even invite Machachek or Maceneaur to camp and b) we didn't really give Scheifele a fair shake.

I agree that keeping Redmond up would be the right message - if he hasn't played well enough to earn a roster spot, then I wonder who ever will?

BTW: Mach and Mace were at camp, but sent down after the team picked up Peluso and Wright off waivers.

 

[No Name Poster]

I may be in the minority here, but I hope we start Pavs Tuesday as long as he's over the flu. I think the pressure of having a backup play well might benefit Ondrej to push himself. Lets face it, in the last three years there has never been any doubt that Pav was the starter. After all, Mason only played well last year against Carolina and never really pushed for a lot of starts. I for one am looking forward to seeing if Pavs can respond.

 

[sipowicz]

I may be in the minority here, but I hope we start Pavs Tuesday as long as he's over the flu. I think the pressure of having a backup play well might benefit Ondrej to push himself. Lets face it, in the last three years there has never been any doubt that Pav was the starter. After all, Mason only played well last year against Carolina and never really pushed for a lot of starts. I for one am looking forward to seeing if Pavs can respond.

Pavs doesn't deserve the start, Montoya does. Pavs knew his job was safe last season and that may have made him complacent.

 

[Tdoe42]

Well guys that not the philosophy of this organization so expect Redmond to make one more trip to the Rock

 

[Stej]

Thats the timeline on College players... Especially Defence

EDIT: I come from the camp where even if they look ready give em more time

I'm fine with that timeline if he wasn't a 2-time AHL all-star and didn't thrive here like he did. This notion that there is a formula that HAS to be followed is mind-boggling. He can help this team win now!!!

I can't wait until the law of large numbers catch up and Detroit's prospects start failing over the next few years so we can dispel this idea that players need to over-ripen before they can be called up.

It IS possible to sour players on the organization by not giving them what they feel to be a fair shot. Ask Kulda why he opted to leave.

 

[Tdoe42]

I'm fine with that timeline if he wasn't a 2-time AHL all-star and didn't thrive here like he did. This notion that there is a formula that HAS to be followed is mind-boggling. He can help this team win now!!!

I can't wait until the law of large numbers catch up and Detroit's prospects start failing over the next few years so we can dispel this idea that players need to over-ripen before they can be called up.

It IS possible to sour players on the organization by not giving them what they feel to be a fair shot. Ask Kulda why he opted to leave.

He is helping the team Win Now... But when Buff and Bogo are back he is gonna be 7th Dman and not playing wont help

 

[No Name Poster]

Pavs doesn't deserve the start, Montoya does. Pavs knew his job was safe last season and that may have made him complacent.

I just think we need to keep it in perspective. Al played great in Ottawa, but Pavelec is the starter. There are other starters in the league that have substandard numbers like Quick, Howard, Miller to name a few. Their teams keep throwing them out there though. It's about who gives you the best chance to win and Montoya needs a bigger body of work for us before getting back to back starts. Just my opinion

 

[untouchable21]

I may be in the minority here, but I hope we start Pavs Tuesday as long as he's over the flu. I think the pressure of having a backup play well might benefit Ondrej to push himself. Lets face it, in the last three years there has never been any doubt that Pav was the starter. After all, Mason only played well last year against Carolina and never really pushed for a lot of starts. I for one am looking forward to seeing if Pavs can respond.

Montoya should start and hope he wins the game. That would maybe trigger some pressure for Pavelec to start improving his play. If you play Pavelec after a shutout by Montoya, he'll never have fear of losing starts. Pavelec needs to know this business is about results and the goalie who wins /plays well consistently will play.

 

[JetsFan815]

It would be incredibely stupid to send Redmond back. The guy is 24, he's going to be a UFA in 2 years after this season, if you are not playing him now than what are you even doing? Are you just "developing" him so that he can join some other team in 2 years time after he has soured on the organization? I would lose all respect in the organization if Redmond gets sent back. He's done enough to earn a spot on the roster.

 

[jiho]

It happens all the time in hockey. All the time. Players aren't stupid, they know how it works.

You are right, players are not stupid. If Redmond gets sent down to St John's that is a joke and sends a terrible message. The players here would know they have nothing to worry about no matter how they play. Competition for jobs is a great motivator. That is why Montoya should start Tuesday, just to light a fire under Pavelec to get his job back. Look at the Maple Leafs. Carlyle is rewarding the players that deserve to be playing. They sent Connoly to the minors even though he was a vet and gave Kadri an opportunity because he earned it through his play. The players are not stupid and respect that and it in a coach and it is showing in the team's play.

 

[Tdoe42]

You are right, players are not stupid. If Redmond gets sent down to St John's that is a joke and sends a terrible message. The players here would know they have nothing to worry about no matter how they play. Competition for jobs is a great motivator. That is why Montoya should start Tuesday, just to light a fire under Pavelec to get his job back. Look at the Maple Leafs. Carlyle is rewarding the players that deserve to be playing. They sent Connoly to the minors even though he was a vet and gave Kadri an opportunity because he earned it through his play. The players are not stupid and respect that and it in a coach and it is showing in the team's play.

The two situations arent even close to the same... We are stacked at D the leafs are 1 player deep at forward

 

[truck]

I'm fine with that timeline if he wasn't a 2-time AHL all-star and didn't thrive here like he did. This notion that there is a formula that HAS to be followed is mind-boggling. He can help this team win now!!!

I can't wait until the law of large numbers catch up and Detroit's prospects start failing over the next few years so we can dispel this idea that players need to over-ripen before they can be called up.

It IS possible to sour players on the organization by not giving them what they feel to be a fair shot. Ask Kulda why he opted to leave.

Redmond has a few really good games, but nothing say he maintains it.

Postma had a few really good games too of course we saw some bad before and after, but we haven't seen much sample with Redmond.

I am not saying Redmond hasn't been or won't be better long term, but I think people are getting a little carried away with him based on 4 games. If his next 4 are ugly, he could deservedly go back.

At this point I see Redmond ahead of Postma, that could change. I just want TNSE to do what is best for the franchise. I don't want them making decisions based on 4, 5, 10 or even 20 games.

 

[Stej]

Redmond has a few really good games, but nothing say he maintains it.

Postma had a few really good games too of course we saw some bad before and after, but we haven't seen much sample with Redmond.

I am not saying Redmond hasn't been or won't be better long term, but I think people are getting a little carried away with him based on 4 games. If his next 4 are ugly, he could deservedly go back.

At this point I see Redmond ahead of Postma, that could change. I just want TNSE to do what is best for the franchise. I don't want them making decisions based on 4, 5, 10 or even 20 games.

I would have no problem sending Redmond back if he starts to struggle. At least then you could justify it to him. IMO the ideal solution is to roll with 8 defensmen with Redmond continuing to play until we know what we have. Maybe I'm a little tainted by the fact that I've streamed a lot of St. John's games this year and I don't think his development is best served by sending him back. Of course I could be wrong. It's just my opinion.

This almost reminds me of an argument that I had with Lawless on twitter last year. He maintained that guys like Ladd should have much longer leashes than rookies, implying that there should be different standards for different players. I whole-heartedly disagree with that philosophy. The only way to truly build accountability within the organization is to reward players who play well. No double-standards, no contract status implications, etc. All players in the organization need to know that if they work hard and earn it, they will be rewarded. It's the ultimate motivator for development.

 

[truck]

2 things about Tuesday's lineup that will most likely piss us all off:

Pavelec will start

One of the kids will be scratched for Buff instead of Clitsome. Obviously I want Grant to sit but between the two, at this very moment? I would scratch Postma.

I don't really care which D man gets scratched.

I would fully understand Noel going back to the Stu - Hainsey pairing that he started the year with. They are probably the next best option for tough minutes after Toby - Buff.

I would also understand Hainsey - Redmond and Stu - Postma, but it does limit what Noel can do with matchups.

 

[truck]

I would have no problem sending Redmond back if he starts to struggle. At least then you could justify it to him. IMO the ideal solution is to roll with 8 defensmen with Redmond continuing to play until we know what we have. Maybe I'm a little tainted by the fact that I've streamed a lot of St. John's games this year and I don't think his development is best served by sending him back. Of course I could be wrong. It's just my opinion.

This almost reminds me of an argument that I had with Lawless on twitter last year. He maintained that guys like Ladd should have much longer leashes than rookies, implying that there should be different standards for different players. I whole-heartedly disagree with that philosophy. The only way to truly build accountability within the organization is to reward players who play well. No double-standards, no contract status implications, etc. All players in the organization need to know that if they work hard and earn it, they will be rewarded. It's the ultimate motivator for development.

Ladd has more than earned a longer reach than any rookie. You are kidding yourself if you think some players doesn't get a little more leeway. Veterans players generally have years of good play that should be weighted more heavily than a rookies body of work.

 

[Gump Hasek]

Ladd has more than earned a longer reach than any rookie. You are kidding yourself if you think some players doesn't get a little more leeway. Veterans players generally have years of good play that should be weighted more heavily than a rookies body of work.

Agreed. The premium placed upon defensive reliability is heavily weighted by both coaches and management toward veteran players, given that defensive errors or the failure to follow systems play often results in goals against. Veteran players can most often be counted upon to make the fewest mistakes, and making the fewest errors is often the difference between winning and losing.

 

[No Name Poster]

You are right, players are not stupid. If Redmond gets sent down to St John's that is a joke and sends a terrible message. The players here would know they have nothing to worry about no matter how they play. Competition for jobs is a great motivator. That is why Montoya should start Tuesday, just to light a fire under Pavelec to get his job back. Look at the Maple Leafs. Carlyle is rewarding the players that deserve to be playing. They sent Connoly to the minors even though he was a vet and gave Kadri an opportunity because he earned it through his play. The players are not stupid and respect that and it in a coach and it is showing in the team's play.

I really don't think there are any NHL players that actually think this. Hockey is a business and if Redmond does get sent down it may be a financial decision based on his contract at first, but do you really think guys like Clitsome would then decide to coast and manage to somehow play worse than he already is because the "pressure's off"?

 

[jiho]

I really don't think there are any NHL players that actually think this. Hockey is a business and if Redmond does get sent down it may be a financial decision based on his contract at first, but do you really think guys like Clitsome would then decide to coast and manage to somehow play worse than he already is because the "pressure's off"?

I am not suggesting players coast. But I strongly believe competition for jobs makes everyone play harder. As Noel stated last year, everyone will earn their ice time. Unfortunately, he does not always back this up and eventually players might lose respect for him.

 

[sully1410]

As of right now...Red's earned his place here....however like Truck said, it could definitely change. It hasn't yet, and as far as my eye can tell he has no glaring faults in his game. I say keep playing him the way that you are, baptism by fire really. Both guys will either rise to occasion or cave under the pressure.

 

[Johnny HFBOARDS]

It would be incredibely stupid to send Redmond back. The guy is 24, he's going to be a UFA in 2 years after this season, if you are not playing him now than what are you even doing? Are you just "developing" him so that he can join some other team in 2 years time after he has soured on the organization? I would lose all respect in the organization if Redmond gets sent back. He's done enough to earn a spot on the roster.

yup

look at the oilers, no way are they keeping that many high draft picks

 

[Stej]

Agreed. The premium placed upon defensive reliability is heavily weighted by both coaches and management toward veteran players, given that defensive errors or the failure to follow systems play often results in goals against. Veteran players can most often be counted upon to make the fewest mistakes, and making the fewest errors is often the difference between winning and losing.

Bringing up the Ladd thing was stupid on my part. Of course he should get more leash if he's more reliable and better defensively. But that's not the same as giving Ladd more leash because his name is Ladd or because of his contract or because he's been there longer. There's a difference.

IMO, having different standards for different players and having multiple levels of accountability is the quickest way to ruin rookies and foster a country club atmosphere for the vets. I watched that unfold for years in Columbus.

Back on topic. Redmond has outplayed Clitsome for the games he's been in and he's earned a chance to continue plying until his play drops off. I'm not saying it won't drop off but that's not the point.