Post-Game Talk: Flyers 5, Penguins 2 - Because No ColePens Analysis Is Necessary

[Darren McCord]

Honestly I hope Kap comes in with a cocky attitude. This team needs something everyone feels to passive and indifferent right now.

Edit: Except Tanev and maybe Lafferty

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

They should but won't. Doesn't matter who the center is. But theses should be the pairs.
Zucker - Kap
Jake - Rust

Yeah I think the chemistry and contrasting styles of the WINGS is important there, too. Rust and Zucker kinda do the same things.

I said going into this year that the Penguins top six was a mirage. That the fit wasn't great and that their RW depth when it came to shooters/skill was... uh... not good. Relying on Kap to not be a third liner and Rust to continue his ludicrous pace from last year was always folly. Everyone saw a "dominant" top six. I see too many question marks and not enough ability.

I would say there is still plenty of times to get things sorted. But there isn't.

 

[Darren McCord]

Yeah I think the chemistry and contrasting styles of the WINGS is important there, too. Rust and Zucker kinda do the same things.

I said going into this year that the Penguins top six was a mirage. That the fit wasn't great and that their RW depth when it came to shooters/skill was... uh... not good. Relying on Kap to not be a third liner and Rust to continue his ludicrous pace from last year was always folly. Everyone saw a "dominant" top six. I see too many question marks and not enough ability.

I would say there is still plenty of times to get things sorted. But there isn't.

There is. If they do it NOW. But Sullivan will wait until they lose 10 in a row. Zucker and Rust can score but that never felt like their primary play. Jake is our best goal scorer. Kap will be different than all three. Just not sure what yet. You can start fix it right now if you break up Rust and Zucker.

 

[LOGiK]

Kap in and ERod out will be 100% better for the top 6 and sid especially. I only like ERod as a complimentary 4th liner. He’s just in over his head right now.

jarry needs to get his act together and G needs to show up. Well be ok, probably could have won last night. It’s just shitty to start 0-2.

Yeah I'd sit Jarry next game to send the message, get your shit together.

The first 8 games of this schedule is just nasty. Depending how the rangers look... penguins could possibly pull of a 0-8 or 2-6 start.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

There is. If they do it NOW. But Sullivan will wait until they lose 10 in a row. Zucker and Rust can score but they never felt their primary play. Jake is our best goal scorer. Kap will be different than all three. Just not sure what yet. You can start fix it right now if you break up Rust and Zucker.

I completely agree but you are painfully accurate in saying that Sullivan will just continue to shrug his shoulders and say stuff like "Gosh darnit I really do think we were the better team out there but just didn't match their intensity. We will build on these lessons we haven't learned from in 2+ seasons any game now I swear!" or somesuch garbage after losing by like 4 goals.

 

[Empoleon8771]

This is true. And at this point in their careers my next point is probably not a salient one but it's worth noting that people were ripping the shit out of both (Crosby in particular if memory serves) under their prior coaches near the end of their tenure due to their poor play. When the new coach came on board that changed quickly. Er, well... except in MJ's case, of course.

I'm not saying it's a magic bullet. But I'm saying that kind of shakeup and new voice and ideas in the room seems to have benefitted this team historically.

I get that, but I think Penguins fans have a super twisted idea of firing coaches just because it has worked in the past. People only remember the times it worked out really well for their teams, but they rarely mention when it went badly for their teams or made pretty much no impact.

I'm skeptical that firing Sullivan at this point will really do much beyond giving them a short term adrenaline rush. That's not an argument for not doing it, definitely do it if you have to shake up the team, but I'm not optimistic that will fix anything. If you really need to continuously fire coaches to get a core of hardened veterans to give a shit, I'm asking questions about those hardened veterans.

 

[The Old Master]

Also, especially with a goalie that can handle the puck pretty well, shouldn’t we be trapping it up a little more? Not all the time just like, when the other team is running a controlled breakout. Just sit back and force a dump in. Maybe once or twice a night we can turn that into a quick strike the other way.

If they’re scrambling and stuff we can still send a bunch of forecheckers in.

there are a lot of ways to do it. but taking advantage of what your players do well is coaching 101

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I get that, but I think Penguins fans have a super twisted idea of firing coaches just because it has worked in the past. People only remember the times it worked out really well for their teams, but they rarely mention when it went badly for their teams or made pretty much no impact.

I'm skeptical that firing Sullivan at this point will really do much beyond giving them a short term adrenaline rush. That's not an argument for not doing it, definitely do it if you have to shake up the team, but I'm not optimistic that will fix anything. If you really need to continuously fire coaches to get a core of hardened veterans to give a shit, I'm asking questions about those hardened veterans.

Like I said I dunno if at this point in the core's career it fixes anything either. But THIS sure ain't working. I know that.

 

[Darren McCord]

I completely agree but you are painfully accurate in saying that Sullivan will just continue to shrug his shoulders and say stuff like "Gosh darnit I really do think we were the better team out there but just didn't match their intensity. We will build on these lessons we haven't learned from in 2+ seasons any game now I swear!" or somesuch garbage after losing by like 4 goals.

This worse part is they are keeping the games close right until the end. I wish they would have been blown out completely in a game. They are allowing the whole "it was much closer than the score dictated" bullcrap.

I think it extends sully leash. But he still won't learn.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Like I said I dunno if at this point in the core's career it fixes anything either. But THIS sure ain't working. I know that.

The biggest issue I have with firing Sullivan is that I feel like Jarry is the biggest problem on this team right now and firing Sullivan won't fix Jarry.

Jarry has given up 8 goals on 12 shots when you look at high danger chances. That is comically bad. Even if you cut the total amount of goals in half, that's still a pretty bad high danger save%.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The biggest issue I have with firing Sullivan is that I feel like Jarry is the biggest problem on this team right now and firing Sullivan won't fix Jarry.

Jarry has given up 8 goals on 12 shots when you look at high danger chances. That is comically bad. Even if you cut the total amount of goals in half, that's still a pretty bad high danger save%.

It's actually even worse than that when you go back into last season post ASG.

So yeah man I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying it's the next logical move in the game and probably has been since last year.

 

[EightyOne]

Then Minnesota doesn't do it. If you were trading one of your best players would you give the opposing team the option of continuously deferring the pick if it fell in the lottery? Billy was generous in letting us have a choice of picks between 2020 and 2021. He knew we wanted Zucker.

That's a whole other issue with JR. Once he's zeroed in, that's it, damn the torpedoes.

It's a stupid way to operate a business, gives you zero leverage and you end up making foolish deals.

 

[Darren McCord]

I get that, but I think Penguins fans have a super twisted idea of firing coaches just because it has worked in the past. People only remember the times it worked out really well for their teams, but they rarely mention when it went badly for their teams or made pretty much no impact.

I'm skeptical that firing Sullivan at this point will really do much beyond giving them a short term adrenaline rush. That's not an argument for not doing it, definitely do it if you have to shake up the team, but I'm not optimistic that will fix anything. If you really need to continuously fire coaches to get a core of hardened veterans to give a shit, I'm asking questions about those hardened veterans.

I agree *see Mike Johnston* But at this point what else can you do to shake up the team? They have tried through trades. Hagelin, Horny, Kessel These were all big trades that fell flat.

They even fired every other coach besides Sully. He is literal the last move you can make before trading Crosby Letang or Malkin. Which won't make the team better. No one can afford them so you won't get proper value.

Sully is literally the last move to make if the team doesn't get its act together. So its not just about firing a coach for the sake of firing one.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

This division is quite tough. Outside of Buffalo and NJ, every other team seems to be at least as good as the Penguins.

Is this the year our playoff streak is broken?

 

[Empoleon8771]

I agree *see Mike Johnston* But at this point what else can you do to shake up the team? They have tried through trades. Hagelin, Horny, Kessel These were all big trades that fell flat.

They even fired every other coach besides Sully. He is literal the last move you can make before trading Crosby Letang or Malkin. Which won't make the team better. No one can afford them so you won't get proper value.

Sully is literally the last move to make if the team doesn't get its act together. So its not just about firing a coach for the sake of firing one.

Honestly I'd just ride DeSmith at this point and see if that works. Like I said above, I think goaltending is the biggest problem on this team right now. The top-6 is doing a terrible job at generating chances and the defensive structure looks completely broken, but Jarry's piss poor performance so far this year has killed this team more than either of those things.

It goes back to the thing I said in the off-day thread yesterday. Whether I want to fire Sullivan depends on how they're losing. If they're losing because your starting goalie is giving up a goal ever 4 shots, I don't think firing Sullivan would fix that.

 

[Darren McCord]

This division is quite tough. Outside of Buffalo and NJ, every other team seems to be at least as good as the Penguins.

Is this the year our playoff streak is broken?

The rangers got smacked by the Isles and are full of a lot of 1rst and 2nd year players. I am not sold on them being good. I think Buffalo is better. Also NJ just almost beat boston. The division is a nightmare all around.

 

[Darren McCord]

Honestly I'd just ride DeSmith at this point and see if that works. Like I said above, I think goaltending is the biggest problem on this team right now. The top-6 is doing a terrible job at generating chances and the defensive structure looks completely broken, but Jarry's piss poor performance so far this year has killed this team more than either of those things.

It goes back to the thing I said in the off-day thread yesterday. Whether I want to fire Sullivan depends on how they're losing. If they're losing because your starting goalie is giving up a goal ever 4 shots, I don't think firing Sullivan would fix that.

Honestly I think that is just avoidance of the issue. DeSmith is not going to save them. He made 6 saves on 7 shots. He was barely tested. Next game he won't get that same treatment.

The bold the real issue. And this is the coach. They showed no urgency. The bench should be shortened when your losing. Tanev should be double shifted with Sid when he is your best player. Erod should not have more ice time than Zucker, Tanev, Jank, McCann or even Tb.

These are all coaching issues that are not new to the team; Icetime, Line Combo, Defensive Structure, Game Readiness, in game adjustments.

 

[LOGiK]

This division is quite tough. Outside of Buffalo and NJ, every other team seems to be at least as good as the Penguins.

Is this the year our playoff streak is broken?

Spoiler:


YES

 

[Ugene Magic]

The biggest issue I have with firing Sullivan is that I feel like Jarry is the biggest problem on this team right now and firing Sullivan won't fix Jarry.

Jarry has given up 8 goals on 12 shots when you look at high danger chances. That is comically bad. Even if you cut the total amount of goals in half, that's still a pretty bad high danger save%.

You play better and cut that in half it's probably leading to the Pens being 1-1 considering the times of no preseason. The Pens have been giving up those amounts of high danger chances for years. It has affected every goalie who patrolled the crease for them. While Jarry shouldn't get a pass, he also isn't the biggest problem. The biggest problem lies somewhere between the players and the coach who doesn't have his players ready for game starts.

 

[LOGiK]

You play better and cut that in half it's probably leading to the Pens being 1-1 considering the times of no preseason. The Pens have been giving up those amounts of high danger chances for years. It has affected every goalie who patrolled the crease for them. While Jarry shouldn't get a pass, he also isn't the biggest problem. The biggest problem lies somewhere between the players and the coach who doesn't have his players ready for game starts.

He's leon's biggest problem because Murray was leon's boy.

 

[Ugene Magic]

He's chumpoleon's biggest problem because Murray was leon's boy.

Sorry, not following.

 

[LOGiK]

Leon was a big fan of Murray starting over Jarry.

 

[vodeni]

Sucks when you control the play so much 5v5 but still lose by 3. Shots were 33-20.

+++++
- Zone time
- 3rd line is fire.
- Matheson improvement
- Thought Ruhwedel played quite well and was very noticeable. We don't need Ceci at all. Never did.
- Sid 2 in 2. Thought he was skating well and looks normal after the surgery. Needs a right winger though. Should have more points by now.
- Our speed and tenacity on the forecheck was very consistent all game
- CDS was fine and should start against Wash
- Played with a lot of emotion, which has been a problem the last few years
- Zucker was a hell of a lot better, but didn't get rewarded. Still not as good as he can be.
- Guentzel improved but still not the player we remember.

-------
- Penalties, penalties, penalties. 6 of em. Welp.
- Jarry pls
- Malkin's disappointing me so far
- PP1 doesn't look close to organized and cohesive. At least they're 2/8 so far, somehow
- Rodrigues being forced to do something he isn't capable of. He hurt them bad tonight, trying to force passes. He had BIG chances.
- Guentzel playing left wall and Rusty right wall on PP1. Malkin was left wall once too. That pissed me off. Their handedness is pointing towards the boards? Uhhh one-timer options?! EARTH TO SULLY AND REIRDEN. COME IN. COME IN!!
- Passed up shooting opportunities, as usual

how could you not have letang and dumolin here

 

[SEALBound]

Yeah I'd sit Jarry next game to send the message, get your shit together.

The first 8 games of this schedule is just nasty. Depending how the rangers look... penguins could possibly pull of a 0-8 or 2-6 start.

I would stick to the schedule. If CDS was scheduled to play the next game, he does but not because Jarry was bad. Two games into the season is not exactly the time to hit your young goalie over the head. Odd thing about goalies is that, for the most part, they need to play themselves out of the funk. This has been historically true for MAF, MM, and even Jarry and CDS in their time here. CDS next game, then back to the schedule. If Jarry stinks up his 3rd game, then you start examining it a little closer. It's not like the team gave him solid defense in either game but he obviously did himself no favors either.

I get that, but I think Penguins fans have a super twisted idea of firing coaches just because it has worked in the past. People only remember the times it worked out really well for their teams, but they rarely mention when it went badly for their teams or made pretty much no impact.

I'm skeptical that firing Sullivan at this point will really do much beyond giving them a short term adrenaline rush. That's not an argument for not doing it, definitely do it if you have to shake up the team, but I'm not optimistic that will fix anything. If you really need to continuously fire coaches to get a core of hardened veterans to give a shit, I'm asking questions about those hardened veterans.

We've been a spoiled fan base for quite a while regarding several things. Coaches are not unlike the 3C. For the most part, if the 3C isn't Staal caliber, we are unhappy. If the team isn't playing like they did early DB or early MS, we are unhappy. This is a "honeymoon" phase fanbase who struggles to accept and adjust to reality more often than not.

This division is quite tough. Outside of Buffalo and NJ, every other team seems to be at least as good as the Penguins.

Is this the year our playoff streak is broken?

2 games into the season. Where was St. Louis in Decemeber when they won the cup?

 

[LOGiK]

I would stick to the schedule. If CDS was scheduled to play the next game, he does but not because Jarry was bad. Two games into the season is not exactly the time to hit your young goalie over the head. Odd thing about goalies is that, for the most part, they need to play themselves out of the funk. This has been historically true for MAF, MM, and even Jarry and CDS in their time here. CDS next game, then back to the schedule. If Jarry stinks up his 3rd game, then you start examining it a little closer. It's not like the team gave him solid defense in either game but he obviously did himself no favors either.



We've been a spoiled fan base for quite a while regarding several things. Coaches are not unlike the 3C. For the most part, if the 3C isn't Staal caliber, we are unhappy. If the team isn't playing like they did early DB or early MS, we are unhappy. This is a "honeymoon" phase fanbase who struggles to accept and adjust to reality more often than not.



2 games into the season. Where was St. Louis in Decemeber when they won the cup?

Just sit Jarry a game to get his head together not to scold him. Him getting yoinked was scolding enough.
But he does need to get his **** together though... really sloppy so far.

---

St Louis was not in the same situation as the penguins.... penguins going from top to middling to having to stave off being a bottom standing team with fading core. Can't say I follow St Louis enough to know what their situation was, but I know they weren't going through the penguins situation.