Post-Game Talk: Flyers 4, Pens 0 - Kunitz for Selke

[Dipsy Doodle]

You keep saying this about Crosby and Guentzel. I'm not I remember who all these people were that were criticizing Crosby and Guentzel's play. Also, there's a MAJOR difference between subbing out Kunitz for Sheary and subbing out Kunitz for Wilson. You are acting like just removing Kunitz sparked Crosby and Guentzel. I think Sheary had at least a little to do with it.

But yes, Sully should try Wilson over Kunitz.

I'm not going to call out individual posters. Read through the Canes GDT if you want to see how Sid and Guentzel were criticized out for poor play/effort level and then how the script got instantaneously flipped when Horny - not Sheary - was swapped in for Kunitz:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2192645

It's also worth checking out the PGTs of the two games where we actually got to see HMK. Not a word of criticism for Kessel - it was rejoicing all around for HMK:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2200547
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2199239

It happens like clockwork.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Hainsey? You gotta be kidding me. He and Streit are career minus players combining for over 130 in the minus column over their careers. I can't believe Sullivan is giving them so much ice. That first period set the tone and when Hainsey was out there it was pretty much a tilted ice surface. I know the d has some injuries but my lord those 2 are adding to the problem not the solution.

Consider me shocked that a guy with 900+ career NHL games who has never played for a team to even qualify for the playoffs is a career minus player.

 

[vodeni]

You keep saying this about Crosby and Guentzel. I'm not I remember who all these people were that were criticizing Crosby and Guentzel's play. Also, there's a MAJOR difference between subbing out Kunitz for Sheary and subbing out Kunitz for Wilson. You are acting like just removing Kunitz sparked Crosby and Guentzel. I think Sheary had at least a little to do with it.

But yes, Sully should try Wilson over Kunitz.

this is getting out of hand here. You understand that neither WC nor anyone else arguing that Wilson SHOULD BE 2nd line winger. He should be in and out 4th line winger. Everyone knows that. No one argues otherwise.

What we are saying here is that Kunitz, single handedly sunk Sid's game and than ventured to do the same damage to geno (might I say successfuly). so we are looking at the depleted rosetr and think who could be put there and at least hound the puck and try to keep the puck in the offensive zone for a split second longer to help Geno and Kessel with some possession time. And we suggested either Cullen or Wilson, hack Kuhn would not be worse. Thats all it is. nothing more nothing less. and for all "independent-Non-Groupthinkers here" that for some reason ridicule our frustration with watching Kunitz killing at least one line night in night out, I don't get where you are coming from. I really don't.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Sheary was healthy and not on Crosby's line for 2-3 full games? I don't recall that (of course that doesn't mean it didn't happen).

Guentzel was moved off the line and Sheary was moved to RW to accommodate a certain LW.

 

[Shady Machine]

I'm not going to call out individual posters. Read through the Canes GDT if you want to see how Sid and Guentzel were criticized out for poor play/effort level and then how the script got instantaneously flipped when Horny - not Sheary - was swapped in for Kunitz:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2192645

It's also worth checking out the PGTs of the two games where we actually got to see HMK. Not a word of criticism for Kessel - it was rejoicing all around for HMK:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2200547
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2199239

It happens like clockwork.

So you are just going to ignore my point about the replacements for Kunitz. Subbing out Kunitz for Sheary or Hagelin are a lot different than subbing Kunitz out for Wilson. Anyway, whatever.

 

[vodeni]

Sheary was healthy and not on Crosby's line for 2-3 full games? I don't recall that (of course that doesn't mean it didn't happen).

Sheary was on Sid's line, however they bumped Horny down, move sheary to the RW so Kunitz could stay at 1line LW

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So you are just going to ignore my point about the replacements for Kunitz. Subbing out Kunitz for Sheary or Hagelin are a lot different than subbing Kunitz out for Wilson. Anyway, whatever.

You may remember that Hagelin's had no small amount of criticism for his play this year. Yet when he was the 3rd wheel for Malkin and Kessel, the line was flying and nobody had a word of criticism for Phil as the PGTs show. Weird what happens when you don't have a total dog ****er on the opposite wing.

Be sure to check out that Canes GDT too. You asked for evidence of the Kunitz effect on Crosby and Guentzel and I went to the effort to provide it, so see it through.

 

[Fordy]

So you are just going to ignore my point about the replacements for Kunitz. Subbing out Kunitz for Sheary or Hagelin are a lot different than subbing Kunitz out for Wilson. Anyway, whatever.

so what

seriously

so what

 

[Richard]

I've felt that the Kunitz hate was overblown around here, especially last season and early this season BUT last night was a pro who is done. He was absolutely terrible. I cannot believe how bad he fell the last two months.

Kunitz is done now boys.

 

[Shady Machine]

so what

seriously

so what

Oh I see you are contributing a lot to the conversation. Thanks.

 

[Shady Machine]

You may remember that Hagelin's had no small amount of criticism for his play this year. Yet when he was the 3rd wheel for Malkin and Kessel, the line was flying and nobody had a word of criticism for Phil as the PGTs show. Weird what happens when you don't have a total dog ****er on the opposite wing.

Be sure to check out that Canes GDT too. You asked for evidence of the Kunitz effect on Crosby and Guentzel and I went to the effort to provide it, so see it through.

I checked out the GDT and see nothing so far (I'm on page 20) to suggest that there was a progression from "ah Sid sucks because of Kunitz" to "Sid is amazing because Kunitz isn't there". From what I can gather (I can't recall if I watched all of this game), the Pens as a team were playing like ass and Murray was bailing them out. Sid and Geno took a combined 5 penalties in half a game and they were stupid penalties (not Kunitz' fault from what I gather). Then the Pens score on a 5-3 from Kessel, I believe, and Sid and the team woke up.

In fact, you had the same agenda in that game and ColePens called you out on it:

ColePens: Come on. I expect more out of you. A lot of issues are around #14, but Jakes turnover the other night was not Kunitz. It's okay that a rookie struggles. He is struggling a bit. You can hate Kunitz, but let's call a spade a spade.

ColePens: Yep. You are right. That's why Guentzel passed the puck directly to the other team. Because Kunitz. Makes perfect sense now.

That's just as equally as bad as people who think MAF is a top 5 goalie all time and should be starting over Murray.

That's all I'm arguing here. Kessel is doing individual **** wrong that has nothing to do with Kunitz. Kessel is sucking right now because Kessel is sucking. Geno is not sucking, despite Kunitz and Kessel. The line would be better with Hagelin, Rust, or Hornqvist, but those guys aren't in the lineup. The line MIGHT be better with Wilson and I'm happy to try it, but it's not a guarantee. That's the only argument I've been making, yet people make it seem like I'm a Kunitz defender all of a sudden. It's sort of madness to be honest.

Warm Cookies: Where did I say that?

You're isolating on a single incident. It's not Kunitz's fault that Guentzel had a giveaway, or that Crosby took a stupid selfish penalty tonight either. But it is his fault that the 1st line was struggling mightily.

So basically it's a lot of you saying everything is Kunitz's fault and some that are happy Kunitz is off line 1 in favor of a superior player with tons of chemistry with Sid in Horny. What am I missing here?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I checked out the GDT and see nothing so far (I'm on page 20) to suggest that there was a progression from "ah Sid sucks because of Kunitz" to "Sid is amazing because Kunitz isn't there". From what I can gather (I can't recall if I watched all of this game), the Pens as a team were playing like ass and Murray was bailing them out. Sid and Geno took a combined 5 penalties in half a game and they were stupid penalties (not Kunitz' fault from what I gather). Then the Pens score on a 5-3 from Kessel, I believe, and Sid and the team woke up.

Keep reading.

 

[Shady Machine]

Keep reading.

See above.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

For decades I'd never ever miss a game against the Flyers, Rangers, etc. Win or lose they were always entertaining. This was an absolutely pathetic effort. Sure, use the travel as an excuse. It has some merit. But most guys in the lineup are young, and should have more energy and hop. Nobody even bats an eye when a Flyer knees Murray in the face?? lol.

Sundqvist looks like a poor mans Eric Tangradi out there. Certainly glad he was a 'must keep at all costs' during the deadline. My eyes aren't what they used to be, but has that been Kevin Porter sneaking into Rowney's jersey??

Injuries suck. But when most of your team is built with soft, undersized guys, and old, soft guys, they're a part of life. Some of it's bad luck, sure. But if nobody can see the link between physically soft players and injuries, then I'm not sure what to say.

The Penguins are middle of the road in man games lost to injury. You can't just change facts to fit your agenda.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Yes because what we are all saying is that Scott Wilson was going to single handedly make the team play well tonight.

I don't know why you are even responding to posts if you are going to make absolutely no effort to address the actual content of said arguments. It seems you are simply extending everybody's argument to its most ridiculous extreme and then mocking the result. What you are doing is no different than what the people who are saying you are in the Kunitz fan club are doing.

I addressed it in my first post.

5 games in 8 days crossing 4 time zones with 1/3 of the lineup missing including 3 guys in Rust, Hagelin, Letang (and you could argue Daley) who are tailor made for this system.

Alas no, let's debate the merits of Scott ****ing Wilson as a top six option making a difference in any game, much less last night's.

As someone who has bashed Kunitz relentlessly over the last three years, the fact that I'm not jumping on this particular opportunity to further do so means that the team has other problems to deal with right now.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I checked out the GDT and see nothing so far (I'm on page 20) to suggest that there was a progression from "ah Sid sucks because of Kunitz" to "Sid is amazing because Kunitz isn't there". From what I can gather (I can't recall if I watched all of this game), the Pens as a team were playing like ass and Murray was bailing them out. Sid and Geno took a combined 5 penalties in half a game and they were stupid penalties (not Kunitz' fault from what I gather). Then the Pens score on a 5-3 from Kessel, I believe, and Sid and the team woke up.

In fact, you had the same agenda in that game and ColePens called you out on it:

Are you serious right now?

Sid and Guentzel were getting called out left and right in that GDT. Kunitz is switched out for Hornqvist and miraculously they start playing great hockey. It's as plain as day, and as precipitous and pronounced as the drop from HMK to KMK.

Cole argued with me at the end of that Canes game. Knowing what kind of a poster he is, I'd be shocked if he felt the same after what we've seen subsequently. Look at the Kessel thread. He understands the Kunitz effect now. Maybe you will someday too.

That's all I'm arguing here. Kessel is doing individual **** wrong that has nothing to do with Kunitz. Kessel is sucking right now because Kessel is sucking. Geno is not sucking, despite Kunitz and Kessel. The line would be better with Hagelin, Rust, or Hornqvist, but those guys aren't in the lineup. The line MIGHT be better with Wilson and I'm happy to try it, but it's not a guarantee. That's the only argument I've been making, yet people make it seem like I'm a Kunitz defender all of a sudden. It's sort of madness to be honest.

So..why do you think Crosby and Guentzel were "sucking" during the Canes game until the precise moment of that line switch?

So basically it's a lot of you saying everything is Kunitz's fault and some that are happy Kunitz is off line 1 in favor of a superior player with tons of chemistry with Sid in Horny. What am I missing here?

You're missing the entire point, which is that Crosby and Guentzel - two players known for their work ethic and hockey IQ - look like crap with Kunitz and then like greased lightning during the same game as soon as he's removed. And Malkin and Kessel look fantastic with Hagelin - a player who's struggled this year by any standard but who has speed and determination to burn - and then struggle at ES with Kunitz.

If CK can bring down all-around talents like Crosby and Guentzel, expecting a winger who's never been great at boardwork or defense to pick up his slack is ridiculous.

 

[StutzlesTapeJob]

I've felt that the Kunitz hate was overblown around here, especially last season and early this season BUT last night was a pro who is done. He was absolutely terrible. I cannot believe how bad he fell the last two months.

Kunitz is done now boys.

Thought exactly the same thing. He looked so tired, dragging, and lost. He was struggling so bad to keep pace and make any plays with the puck.

He was a great COG for a long time. Maybe it was getting more ice on the 2nd line coupled with a road trip and heavy schedule. But man last night his drag on the line really showed. And even more than neutralizing Geno, it seems the key to Kessel is having a speedy second winger who disrupts and creates the spots for him to pick.

I didn't think Kessel did anything deserving of praise in and of himself, and not looking to blame someone else completely for his play. But analyzing the game, I can't help but notice that Kessel is way more effective when whatever line he is on is playing a disruptive pressure game. And with Kunitz there it just doesn't seem to be supporting.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

I addressed it in my first post.

5 games in 8 days crossing 4 time zones with 1/3 of the lineup missing including 3 guys in Rust, Hagelin, Letang (and you could argue Daley) who are tailor made for this system.

Alas no, let's debate the merits of Scott ****ing Wilson as a top six option making a difference in any game, much less last night's.

As someone who has bashed Kunitz relentlessly over the last three years, the fact that I'm not jumping on this particular opportunity to further do so means that the team has other problems to deal with right now.

Nobody is debating the merits of Scott Wilson as a top 6 option being the sole difference maker in the game. What we are saying is that Kunitz belongs on the 4th line and the guy who should replace him on the 2nd line is Wilson due to all the injuries.

No matter how many times you keep saying that we are discussing the merits of Wilson as a top 6 player it does not make it the truth. Again, you ingore the content of an argument, extend the argument to its extreme, and mock the result. You are adding nothing to the discussion and you are not making a case for your opinion.

Wilson is absolutely an upgrade over Kunitz. No, he is not an upgrade that is likely to turn the tide but at the very least Wilson would not sink Geno like Kunitz does with his terrible puck handling and decision making. There is no way you have watched Kunitz recently if you think Wilson wouldn't be an upgrade. You have 2 of the best centers in nhl history and both fell apart with Kunitz on their line and it is no coincidence.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Then again, you don't see much difference in scoring 23 ES points with 10 minutes per game on the 4th line and scoring 24 ES points with 13 minutes per game along the two best centers in the league either.

So...grain of salt.

I do see a difference, but it's nowhere near as simple as that. I've seen the the old "Man, if he's getting X amount of points on the 4th line, just imagine what he can do with Sid or Geno!" argument fall flat on its face way too many times to take it seriously.

 

[Ziggyjoe21]

Guys, the Penguins just completed a 3-1-1 road trip despite 6-8 significant injuries. We all need to PANIC because of one loss. This one loss overshadows the success of the previous 68 games and confirms that the coaches and players are bad.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Guys, the Penguins just completed a 3-1-1 road trip despite 6-8 significant injuries. We all need to PANIC because of one loss. This one loss overshadows the success of the previous 68 games and confirms that the coaches and players are bad.

You hit the nail on the head. It's all panic over 1 game. It's not like the defensive zone coverage, breakouts, and usage of Kunitz have been issues all year.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Didn't you say the bolded in regards to there being no way Kunitz would remain on Crosby's line once Sheary was back? It took an extra 2 or 3 games of complete ineptitude for Sullivan to switch it to Sheary/Guentzel before he removed Kunitz.

Point being, you seem convinced that it's "just because of injuries" that Kunitz is there, when it looks more a case of Sullivan simply thinking there's something about Kunitz's game that makes him want to play him with either Sid or Geno. The fact that he finally removed him from Sid's line only to hamper Geno proves that.

Kunitz is Sullivan's default option if there's even one injury, or if the current lines struggle even slightly. Not sure why you even bother defending that.

Because HBK isn't working, so he's trying (rightly) to find balance, because you're not winning **** in today's NHL if you don't have it, no matter how stacked your top six is.

He tries it out for a handful of games (or less), sees it fail miserably, and switches it up. It's the regular season after all and that's what he should be doing in trying to catch lightning in a bottle as spring approaches. He's not going about it the way I would, but I get the mindset behind it.

As a card carrying Chris Kunitz hater (membership number 0001), I look for every opportunity to **** on the guy because he's rapidly approaching Scuderi territory for me. But right now, with all the guys hurt, it's pointless to whine about him when you consider he's not going to sniff the top six if everyone is healthy.

And if everyone isn't healthy, they're not winning anyway, so what's the point in crying about it?

 

[MtlPenFan]

I don't disagree, but that's just the reality with coaching in the NHL. They all, down to every single last one of the guys behind the bench, favor vets. Babcock, Trotz, Laviolette, all of the best coaches (and the worst) favor vets to a nauseating degree. Couple that with the fact that this organization reveres it's guys who have been around forever and you're going to have Kunitz ruining Sid or Geno's lines whenever someone gets injured or falters even the slightest in performance. That's just the way it goes.

As much as Sullivan is rightfully getting roasted for his line combos/pairings, it's just as much JR's fault for allowing such glaring weaknesses to remain on the roster. Lots of us said it last summer, complacency and satisfaction are the death of success in the NHL. Didn't matter that we just won a Cup, we had issues then and they weren't changed, so we're suffering through them right now.

If Kunitz and Fleury are on this team come October, we're literally right back to Shero/Bylsma-era stupidity and arrogance.

-edit- And just to clarify, I don't revile Kunitz as a 4th liner getting 8-10 minutes a night. He actually played relatively well (with regard to his past 3 years of hockey) there and the only real issue was his cap hit in relation to his role. That being said, we all know that's not the whole story. The issue with Kunitz is simply that even if Sully makes the right choice and plays him in that extremely limited role or scratches him for a more effective player, that won't last. As soon as something happens like an injury or a stretch of poor games, Kunitz will be square-pegged right back up into the top-6 and on the first PP unit. Such is life on this team. The only option to completely solve the issue is to remove him from the team.

If Mike Babcock could, he'd have Dan Cleary playing for him in Toronto.

It's just how these guys operate.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

"There's no chance Kunitz is in the top 6 when healthy."

Am I losing it? Did I hallucinate a few weeks ago when Kunitz was on Crosby's line when Bryan Rust was the only injured forward?

 

[MtlPenFan]

Nobody is debating the merits of Scott Wilson as a top 6 option being the sole difference maker in the game. What we are saying is that Kunitz belongs on the 4th line and the guy who should replace him on the 2nd line is Wilson due to all the injuries.

No matter how many times you keep saying that we are discussing the merits of Wilson as a top 6 player it does not make it the truth. Again, you ingore the content of an argument, extend the argument to its extreme, and mock the result. You are adding nothing to the discussion and you are not making a case for your opinion.

Wilson is absolutely an upgrade over Kunitz. No, he is not an upgrade that is likely to turn the tide but at the very least Wilson would not sink Geno like Kunitz does with his terrible puck handling and decision making. There is no way you have watched Kunitz recently if you think Wilson wouldn't be an upgrade. You have 2 of the best centers in nhl history and both fell apart with Kunitz on their line and it is no coincidence.

Yes, he'd be an upgrade in the sense that I'd take date Lena Dunham is an upgrade over Rosie O'Donnell.

One may make me throw up a little less than the other, but at the end of the day, I'm still going to be sick.