GDT: Florida Panthers at Ottawa Senators - 7PM - Sportsnet / TVAS - Hello Kitty, eat litter!

[Do Make Say Think]

If they aren't listening to the coach, you have to find a coach that they will listen to.

Yeah, DJ is not getting the job done so find someone who will.

The issue which I think last night highlighted is that too many players just do not listen. This is the kind of worrying structural issue, a better coach will also have to teach them how to listen and that may take a while.

 

[NyQuil]

The issue which I think last night highlighted is that too many players just do not listen. This is the kind of worrying structural issue, a better coach will also have to teach them how to listen and that may take a while.

Well, apparently the players "love DJ" and I'm starting to see why.

 

[BoardsofCanada]

Well, apparently the players "love DJ" and I'm starting to see why.

I guarantee you the players do not love losing. If DJ really was the reason they are losing, they would not be happy with him.

 

[NyQuil]

I guarantee you the players do not love losing. If DJ really was the reason they are losing, they would not be happy with him.

I'm sure it's the bad bounces or the schedule that is to blame.

 

[inthewings]

The reckoning of the Melnyk years that culminated with Dorion running the program into the ground for 6 years is here.

When you run a gongshow, eventually it all comes crashing down. It all exploding as new ownership comes in makes perfect sense.

Yeah. This is what people have been talking about for years when they were concerned that tanking as a result of organizational incompetence makes it very difficult to just flip the switch once you've collected a satisfactory amount of young talent. Because the same organizational failings are still there. We've become the Sabres/Blue Jackets/ pre-McDavid Oilers.

Thankfully we have people at the top of the organization now who are competent and prepared to do things right. It's just going to take time, and I think the eventual core when this team is ready to compete for a Stanley Cup will look a lot different than the core in place now.

 

[GCK]

I honestly think a coaching change is required immediately. Management needs to see this group under a different coach to assess the core roster. Waiting until the offseason doesn’t provide sufficient information for roster shakeups.

 

[BoardsofCanada]

I'm sure it's the bad bounces or the schedule that is to blame.

Did you watch the game last night? The Sens were horse shit. They bobbled pucks, passes weren't tape to tape, couldn't clear the puck, couldn't generate offense, couldn't stop the puck etc. They just weren't good. The Panthers on the other hand were good.. very good. They look like a legit contender and the Sens got trounced.
You could have had the greatest coach in history behind the Sens bench and the result would've been the same. They're just not as good as we thought. Whether it's youth and inexperience, missing players due to injury, goaltending... I don't know but right now, they are not a good team.

You can fire DJ sure,, that's what happens when a team loses but it's fantasy to think a new coach will solve all the problems.

 

[Mingus Dew]

Vegas' average age is 29.4

Not really the same thing. Many of our players are absolutely in their primes from a career standpoint.

A better stat would be how old are the star players when they start winning championships or leading teams to significant playoff success at least.

Points don’t really mean shit if you aren’t winning so to speak.

No way are these guys at their most impactful on team success in their early 20’s.

It's possible. That's a different discussion.

But the fact of the matter is that a guy like Chychrun at 25 is probably playing the best hockey he'll ever play right now. There are always exceptions to the rule of course.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Seems to check out

Colorado had Mackinnon (27), Rantanen (25), Makar (23) as their top guys
TBL in their first win had Kucherov (26), Point (23), Hedman (28), and Vasi (25)
Blues O'Reilly (27), Tarasenko (26), Pietrangelo (28)
Penguins in their first win had Crosby (21), Malkin (22), Letang (21), Fleury (24)
Hawks in their first win had Kane (20), Keith (26), Toews (21), and Sharp (27) plus a 30-yo Hossa
Kings in their first win had Kopitar (25), Doughty (22), Richards (27), Brown (27), Quick (26) and Voynov (22)

Knights and Caps core were a bit older.

But core of Brady (24), Stu (21), Bath (25), Chychrun (25), Norris (25) and Chabot (26) doesn't really look our of place age-wise with a lot of recent first-time cup champion cores.

Very cool, thanks for putting this together!

Well each team looks like it has some of its best players in the 26-27 range. Pittsburg I think is an outlier lol…

My point was more that Brady, Sanderson’s and Stu, are still at least a few years away from being in that age where they should be expected to be able to lead a team deep into the playoffs. Chabot, Chych, Norris, Batherson are a start but many of those teams have full on stars in that late 20’s spot.

I think we still need vets around them right now. My expectations is for this core to learn to make the playoffs, and that prime points doesn’t really line up with prime contention for a lot of these star players out the expectation is for their best years to be their early 20’s.

I think we’ll be a much more serious threat when the core 3 are a few years older… and we have a new GM and coaching staff…

 

[NyQuil]

You could have had the greatest coach in history behind the Sens bench and the result would've been the same. They're just not as good as we thought. Whether it's youth and inexperience, missing players due to injury, goaltending... I don't know but right now, they are not a good team.

I don't think so.

No team, no matter how bad, will lose every game 5-0 with 20 shots on goal at home.

And I don't think, talent-wise, we should be in this situation.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Here's a refresher:

And now today:

GARRIOCH: The Ottawa Senators had better find answers to their troubles quick

garrioch column

ottawasun.com

I guess I don't feel the need to call people idiots when I know that I'm correct.

Coach takes the heat for his team's flaccid performance in a 5-0 loss...more on this story coming up on the 6 o'clock news.

"Being ready to play"...is that some sort of catch all term like "systems" that we throw around when things go wrong and we don't have a clear, easy explanation?

Zub flubbed the puck behind his net on the PK despite having time and space to make a play because...DJ DIDN'T GET HIM READY TO PLAY.

They had 1 shot on a 4 minute PP after going down 1-0 because DJ DIDN'T GET THEM READY TO PLAY.

They lost a clear offside challenge because DJ DIDN'T GET THEM READY TO PLAY.

I'm not saying DJ doesn't bare responsibility in this mess. As a matter of fact, I said he should have been fired 10 games ago. But when are you guys going to start admitting that some of these players are f***ing donkeys? Game after game we've watched different guys completely shut their brains off. They need to start taking responsibility for themselves and the way they're playing. They need their leaders to step up and set the tone on and off the ice. If they need a coach to tell them that they need to focus and be ready to play before the game starts, then they shouldn't be in the NHL. It's f***ing outrageous.

 

[Mingus Dew]

Coach takes the heat for his team's flaccid performance in a 5-0 loss...more on this story coming up on the 6 o'clock news.

"Being ready to play"...is that some sort of catch all term like "systems" that we throw around when things go wrong and we don't have a clear, easy explanation?

Zub flubbed the puck behind his net on the PK despite having time and space to make a play because...DJ DIDN'T GET HIM READY TO PLAY.

They had 1 shot on a 4 minute PP after going down 1-0 because DJ DIDN'T GET THEM READY TO PLAY.

They lost a clear offside challenge because DJ DIDN'T GET THEM READY TO PLAY.

I'm not saying DJ doesn't bare responsibility in this mess. As a matter of fact, I said he should have been fired 10 games ago. But when are you guys going to start admitting that some of these players are f***ing donkeys? Game after game we've watched different guys completely shut their brains off. They need to start taking responsibility for themselves and the way they're playing. They need their leaders to step up and set the tone on and off the ice. If they need a coach to tell them that they need to focus and be ready to play before the game starts, then they shouldn't be in the NHL. It's f***ing outrageous.

Probably somewhere in the middle. But if you're right and no coach can help these guys because they're braindead then the rebuild was a failure and we have to blow it up.

I think we need a new coach and I think we absolutely need to trade away pieces of the core. Preferably before the season is over.

If the players are still making asinine mistakes constantly after that then restart the rebuild imo.

 

[Knave]

A better stat would be how old are the star players when they start winning championships or leading teams to significant playoff success at least.

Points don’t really mean shit if you aren’t winning so to speak.

No way are these guys at their most impactful on team success in their early 20’s.

Yes, they're impactful immediately.

MacKinnon drafted, playoffs same year.
McDavid drafted, playoffs the next year.
Matthews drafted, playoffs same year.

How about teams more around our level?

J. Hughes drafted, playoffs in 4th year.
M. Barzal drafted, playoffs in 4th year.
Tim Stutzle drafted, on pace to miss playoffs yet again in 4th year.

We can keep going. I'm describing players and the success they had in their early 20s or even teens.

Nobody is asking for the Stanley Cup today but to win a Stanley Cup you need to start making the playoffs and this team has not shown anything that would make you believe they can make the playoffs.

 

[BoardsofCanada]

Coach takes the heat for his team's flaccid performance in a 5-0 loss...more on this story coming up on the 6 o'clock news.

"Being ready to play"...is that some sort of catch all term like "systems" that we throw around when things go wrong and we don't have a clear, easy explanation?

Zub flubbed the puck behind his net on the PK despite having time and space to make a play because...DJ DIDN'T GET HIM READY TO PLAY.

They had 1 shot on a 4 minute PP after going down 1-0 because DJ DIDN'T GET THEM READY TO PLAY.

They lost a clear offside challenge because DJ DIDN'T GET THEM READY TO PLAY.

I'm not saying DJ doesn't bare responsibility in this mess. As a matter of fact, I said he should have been fired 10 games ago. But when are you guys going to start admitting that some of these players are f***ing donkeys? Game after game we've watched different guys completely shut their brains off. They need to start taking responsibility for themselves and the way they're playing. They need their leaders to step up and set the tone on and off the ice. If they need a coach to tell them that they need to focus and be ready to play before the game starts, then they shouldn't be in the NHL. It's f***ing outrageous.

Thinking 8 million dollar players going out in front of 17,000 screaming fans need their coach to get them ready to play.. ridiculous. It's child like. .

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Thinking 8 million dollar players going out in front of 17,000 screaming fans need their coach to get them ready to play.. ridiculous. It's child like. .

But that’s athletes lol. What do you think athletes are?

People romanticize them as warriors ready to go to war. They’re not. They’re spoiled brats making obscene amounts of money that legit have never needed to grow up.

It’s not even “ready to play”. These players don’t help the system. And the system definitely doesn’t help the players.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Yeah. This is what people have been talking about for years when they were concerned that tanking as a result of organizational incompetence makes it very difficult to just flip the switch once you've collected a satisfactory amount of young talent. Because the same organizational failings are still there. We've become the Sabres/Blue Jackets/ pre-McDavid Oilers.

Thankfully we have people at the top of the organization now who are competent and prepared to do things right. It's just going to take time, and I think the eventual core when this team is ready to compete for a Stanley Cup will look a lot different than the core in place now.

Hopefully not a lot different but I agree, this core is not good enough for a lot of reasons.

We need a lot of tinkering and not just at the coaching level.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Surprised we haven’t heard from giroux yet moaning and groaning over the boos.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Did you watch the game last night? The Sens were horse shit. They bobbled pucks, passes weren't tape to tape, couldn't clear the puck, couldn't generate offense, couldn't stop the puck etc. They just weren't good. The Panthers on the other hand were good.. very good. They look like a legit contender and the Sens got trounced.
You could have had the greatest coach in history behind the Sens bench and the result would've been the same. They're just not as good as we thought. Whether it's youth and inexperience, missing players due to injury, goaltending... I don't know but right now, they are not a good team.

You can fire DJ sure,, that's what happens when a team loses but it's fantasy to think a new coach will solve all the problems.

Last night yes it was a bad game from a lot of perspectives. But this season as a whole. Last season? Was all bobbling pucks. A bunch of players that don’t know where to be, get caught off guard by opponents are play hard. And don’t know how to do anything other than attempt to retrieve pucks in corners

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Did you watch the game last night? The Sens were horse shit. They bobbled pucks, passes weren't tape to tape, couldn't clear the puck, couldn't generate offense, couldn't stop the puck etc. They just weren't good. The Panthers on the other hand were good.. very good. They look like a legit contender and the Sens got trounced.
You could have had the greatest coach in history behind the Sens bench and the result would've been the same. They're just not as good as we thought. Whether it's youth and inexperience, missing players due to injury, goaltending... I don't know but right now, they are not a good team.

You can fire DJ sure,, that's what happens when a team loses but it's fantasy to think a new coach will solve all the problems.

I’m not expecting anyone to come in and solve every problem. Just someone who might implement a semblence of structure and hopefully we’re not out if the playoff race by December.

I don’t get this line of thinking where it’s futile to even try something new because we won’t be able to fix everything overnight. It’s such an odd way to look at anything.

 

[HF Reader]

Yeah, DJ is not getting the job done so find someone who will.

The issue which I think last night highlighted is that too many players just do not listen. This is the kind of worrying structural issue, a better coach will also have to teach them how to listen and that may take a while.

Is it that the players don't listen or is it that the players are not being told?
Regardless, I agree with your main point.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Probably somewhere in the middle. But if you're right and no coach can help these guys because they're braindead then the rebuild was a failure and we have to blow it up.

I think we need a new coach and I think we absolutely need to trade away pieces of the core. Preferably before the season is over.

If the players are still making asinine mistakes constantly after that then restart the rebuild imo.

Well, a different coach can preach a different message and use a different type of accountability to achieve results. But I don't know what's going on between the ears of some of these guys and the results they're producing just aren't good enough.

Then there's other problems with the roster. Kelly, Chartier, Jarventie, Macewan, Highmore and Kastelic have played 61 games combined and produced a total of 2G, 7A, 9P. Because of long term injuries to Zub and Chabot, Hamonic has now played every game this year when he should be the #7. Brannstrom has 1P in 12GP. Kubalik -8 and Batherson -6, worst on the team. The scoring gap between the top 10 players on the roster and the rest is massive.

And, worst of all, they just don't play with enough tenacity and determination. You don't need puck skills to be hard on the forecheck. You don't need to be a 1OA pick to win a 50/50 puck or a battle along the boards. You don't need to have elite hockey IQ to clear the puck out of your zone when you have time and space. You don't need skill to play hard, you just need to do it. And you shouldn't need a coach to tell you to do it either.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Is it that the players don't listen or is it that the players are not being told?
Regardless, I agree with your main point.

Neither , execution sucks.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Well, a different coach can preach a different message and use a different type of accountability to achieve results. But I don't know what's going on between the ears of some of these guys and the results they're producing just aren't good enough.

Then there's other problems with the roster. Kelly, Chartier, Jarventie, Macewan, Highmore and Kastelic have played 61 games combined and produced a total of 2G, 7A, 9P. Because of long term injuries to Zub and Chabot, Hamonic has now played every game this year when he should be the #7. Brannstrom has 1P in 12GP. Kubalik -8 and Batherson -6, worst on the team. The scoring gap between the top 10 players on the roster and the rest is massive.

And, worst of all, they just don't play with enough tenacity and determination. You don't need puck skills to be hard on the forecheck. You don't need to be a 1OA pick to win a 50/50 puck or a battle along the boards. You don't need to have elite hockey IQ to clear the puck out of your zone when you have time and space. You don't need skill to play hard, you just need to do it. And you shouldn't need a coach to tell you to do it either.

I dono. You should be able to get by with 10 guys that produce points.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I’m not expecting anyone to come in and solve every problem. Just someone who might implement a semblence of structure and hopefully we’re not out if the playoff race by December.

I don’t get this line of thinking where it’s futile to even try something new because we won’t be able to fix everything overnight. It’s such an odd way to look at anything.

No one is making that point. Some people are saying that even with a coaching change some of these players just don't have it. Whether it's roster construction of the depth or the quality of some of the players at the top or both, there's something missing.

You can't coach individual decision-making in the heat of a game. You can't download a billion gameplay situations into a player's head and have it choose the best play for them in the moment. You can create structure, you can coach schemes and set plays and whatever else. But some of these guys constantly make mistakes with the puck at the weirdest time and the coach can only play the guys he has been assigned to the roster.

 

[NyQuil]

To be clear, getting rid of a coach isn't just about their instructions or their system or what they say to the players.

It's a move to shake up complacency and drive home the point that the product on the ice simply isn't good enough.

In short tournaments, you'll see a team yank the goalie if the team loses and replace him with another. It's not always the goalie's fault, but it's a move a team can make to shake things up.

Joseph was booted in 2002 in favour of Brodeur, and then Brodeur was booted in 2010 in favour of Luongo. In both cases, the team in front of them hung them out to dry. But you still switch up the goalie.

Blaming the coach for everything is just as simplistic as pitting all the blame on the players because they're the ones on the ice. If you break down every single bad play out there, of course it's the player who is responsible because they're the ones on the ice. If every player executed perfectly right every time, I have a feeling that the team would have a winning record regardless of who the coach was or what the system was.

But when you see a pattern of bad plays, or listlessness across the entire team, then you're looking at something that is endemic to more than just a guy or two having a bad game.

It's not one or two guys that is struggling out there. It's most of the guys. In that scenario, it's pretty hard to take a hard look at your roster to make sensible replacements or changes. It's a lot easier to see how they might play in front of someone else.

One of the jobs a coach has is motivating the players and getting them ready to play. I don't care how old the players are, or what they are being paid, or how professional they are. If this coach doesn't have the means to do it, you try someone else. If that coach can't do it either, then you start looking at where the most egregious examples are and start pruning.

We are literally going through yet another bad start under the same exact coach. Last year, at this exact time, we couldn't believe that DJ was getting to stick around. Now it's happening again. Whether or not the players are ultimately to blame, it's an easier move to make and it has to be made soon IMO.