Flames Fwd line combinations, D pairings, PP units, PK units, and goalie discussion

[super6646]

Ritchie dropped to the 4th line in the new line mix from yesterday and has also found himself back there when he's experimented with other RWs on the 1st line. Sutter isn't under any illusions as to what Ritchie is or could be. He just knows that our top guys are fundamentally flawed in certain aspects

Well good that it only took him only 1/4 of a season of seeing his offensive talent flounder in terms of production and possession metrics to realize that maybe its best to move on from that.

 

[HighLifeMan]

Oh come on.. Ritchie does nothing to help that line. I understand wanting to have a player with the ability to get in on the forecheck and retrieve pucks and win board battles, but that's certainly not Brett Ritchie. Even on the odd chance he does come away with the puck he has absolutely no ability to do anything positive with it. That line is statistically killed in every metric when he is playing with them. The stats don't lie, and it doesn't take a keen eye to realize it.

Zack Hyman is that type of player. Dillon Dube could be that player. Andrew Mangiapane could be that player. Brett Ritchie will never be that player.

The fact he has spent so much time in the top six, let alone on the NHL roster at all, speaks volumes to where we are in the standings.

 

[User1996]

Yes it does, but when you've got a roster without any speed that strategy doesn't work.

See, everyone always says this, but actual players with speed continue to be under utilized. Dube and Mangiapane are players that teams have success with putting them as a “3rd wheel” on a top line. Guys with good motors, good speed, good on the forecheck, and decent skill to boot. Dube did more for that line in one game than Ritchie has in 16. It’s an outdated idea to put a big bruiser there to creat space, and I really hope this drastic change in lines shows that Sutter has come to that realization. If not, it’s going to be a very long 3 years.

The most space Gaudreau and Monahan have had to work with was when they were playing with Hudler.

 

[InfinityIggy]

As for effort being subjective? Well just ask any fanbase how much effort their team puts in when they win and lose. It's no surprise losing is often associated with a "lack of effort" and "weakness", even though that is hardly the case. And during our losing streak I saw a lot of it, but when the coach shoots ya in the foot (Ritchie has some of the worst possession metrics in the league) there is only so much you can do. Gaudreau and Monahan have absolutely disappointed, but when you put them in a position to fail well that's on the coach too.

The bottom line is, do you think this team does not have an effort problem? Gaudreau and Monahan have had every opportunity under the sun to get it going. It's not as if they were playing well before being paired with Ritchie.

And in terms of feeding top minutes to guys checked out... uhhh no this doesn't hold up either. Mangiapane was a guy who never looked check out when he got punished. Dube was scratched because he made mistakes, ditto with Valimaki. I see younger players being held to a higher standard because of mistakes with execution, not necessarily a lack of effort. And if we were to believe Gaudreau and Monahan are checked out and your argument holds, well why are we still playing them big minutes then?

I mean Gaudreau and Monahan were both essentially demoted from the top line, see playing with Ritchie. Being held accountable for rookie mistakes (Valimaki, Dube) is a different animal entirely, but both those guys have had some really inconsistent effort this season in my opinion. Valimaki especially.

As for Geoff Ward... well I mean the record is the record. I never said he was bringing us to the promise land, but when you have the worst record in the league in the past 10 almost anything is better than that.

Being a mediocre team is a far, far worse outcome. Far better to have this roster picked apart by Sutter so it can be rebuilt, than wallow mediocrity with Ward. People are going to have a hernia seeing how the shape of this roster changes over the next 6 or so months.

Kylington and Dube both have speed. No one told him Leivo and Ritchie and Stone needed to play in the top 6 fwd and d.

Kylington only has speed, so not exactly an answer right now either.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

A whole lot of misplaced frustration going on in my opinion. Nobody thinks Brett Ritchie is a top line guy, but what are Darryl's alternatives? Stack Johnny-Money-Lindholm and they're average and our middle-6 is way weaker. Bennett on the top line? Leivo? Lucic? Equally bad. Splitting up Johnny and Money is the only way to avoid this issue, and even when we try that we still don't have a great RW for Johnny and Lindholm/Backlund without gutting our middle-6. When we tried Dube-Monahan-Tkachuk a few games ago they gave up 2 5v5 goals in 2 minutes lol. Small sample of course but exactly what coaches must be concerned about in terms of having a defensive liability 2nd line while our best offensive player is on a different line that must then be more defence-focused.

I definitely wish Darryl was more willing to experiment and he for sure deserves some blame for not being creative enough to get our top-guys going, but to me the blame is like 70-80% Brad for our absolutely garbage RW depth, refusal to call up Matthew Phillips despite having Ritchie, Lucic, and Leivo as bottom-6 RW options, and not identifying and addressing the concern of our weak and unbalanced middle-6 before our top-line spiralled into oblivion before Darryl was here. Sure Darryl gets like 20% of the blame for his inability to create the right combinations and being too stubborn to experiment, but the issues are much deeper and more Brad's fault. Obviously the players are mostly to blame for our struggles, but I just mean who's to blame from a managerial perspective in terms of working to fix and address the roster issues.

I would love to try:

Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk
Mangiapane-Monahan-Dube
Bennett-Backlund-Lucic
Nordstrom-Ryan-Leivo/Ritchie

But even then our 3rd line is pretty bleh (poor Backlund) and our second line could be extremely volatile with Dube and Monahan being incredibly inconsistent and unreliable. Bottom line is ya Ritchie shouldn't be getting the minutes but the issues are way deeper and we should be way more upset w Brad as these issues run much deeper than simply adjusting TOI usage.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

See, everyone always says this, but actual players with speed continue to be under utilized. Dube and Mangiapane are players that teams have success with putting them as a “3rd wheel” on a top line. Guys with good motors, good speed, good on the forecheck, and decent skill to boot. Dube did more for that line in one game than Ritchie has in 16. It’s an outdated idea to put a big bruiser there to creat space, and I really hope this drastic change in lines shows that Sutter has come to that realization. If not, it’s going to be a very long 3 years.

The most space Gaudreau and Monahan have had to work with was when they were playing with Hudler.

But the thing is you're saying that as if Darryl actually has the pieces to fix these issues. Don't get me wrong the Ritchie experiment has failed and he shouldn't get more time, but there is no solution. The reason Dube hasn't been there is because it really hurts our middle-6 depth. When Dube is on the top-line (which I agree he is the best option) the line still doesn't produce enough to be an above-average line and the consequences of removing Dube from the middle-6 and making a 3rd line with some combo of Bennett, Backlund, Lucic, Leivo is absolutely garbage. Not to mention Tkachuk having a down year making our 2nd line inconsistent as hell. Again not saying this was the solution and I agree that a guy like Dube would be way better up there, but he isn't a 1st liner either and without him in the middle-6 we're very weak there and still not that good on line 1. Ditto with putting Mang there or stacking Johnny-Money-Lindholm.

I just think saying 'if Sutter doesn't realize this we're in for 3 long years' is a bit of a misrepresentation of our issues because more of the blame should be on Brad/ management for providing Darryl with this bleh 23 man roster. If Brad doesn't make roster changes than no matter what Darryl does or doesn't do we're in for endless long years.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Being a mediocre team is a far, far worse outcome. Far better to have this roster picked apart by Sutter so it can be rebuilt, than wallow mediocrity with Ward. People are going to have a hernia seeing how the shape of this roster changes over the next 6 or so months.

2000% this. At least with Darryl he is going to provide a blueprint to try and follow to achieve success, and we can either succeed or fail on our path to get there. If we fail we can identify reasons why it didn't work and go from there. This is SO much better than Geoff who clearly didn't even have his own blueprints and left us in a state of nothingness and anger. Not saying I agree with all of Darryl's decisions or that he's the perfect guy for the job, but for a team as directionless and confused and mentally weak as ours I think if we (or any team) ever wants to find success we need to follow a plan, not just make small tweaks every few games and hope it works out. At least this way Darryl can give an assessment of what works and what doesn't work. Darryl has shown he can succeed with a quality roster, and it's Brad's job to put those pieces in front of him.

 

[InfinityIggy]

2000% this. At least with Darryl he is going to provide a blueprint to try and follow to achieve success, and we can either succeed or fail on our path to get there. If we fail we can identify reasons why it didn't work and go from there. This is SO much better than Geoff who clearly didn't even have his own blueprints and left us in a state of nothingness and anger. Not saying I agree with all of Darryl's decisions or that he's the perfect guy for the job, but for a team as directionless and confused and mentally weak as ours I think if we (or any team) ever wants to find success we need to follow a plan, not just make small tweaks every few games and hope it works out. At least this way Darryl can give an assessment of what works and what doesn't work. Darryl has shown he can succeed with a quality roster, and it's Brad's job to put those pieces in front of him.

I am very much fine with people criticizing Darryl's choices, that's all fine. Exactly this though, under Ward and a few other coaches I could name we had exactly 0 identity as to what kind of team we are. That will not be the case with Sutter next season.

 

[User1996]

But the thing is you're saying that as if Darryl actually has the pieces to fix these issues.

He has the pieces to make better lineup choices though. You can’t absolve him of blame just because Treliving has also done a poor job. Two things can be true. Like, I can’t just ignore that we’ve got a worse record under Sutter than Ward.

Don't get me wrong the Ritchie experiment has failed and he shouldn't get more time, but there is no solution. The reason Dube hasn't been there is because it really hurts our middle-6 depth. When Dube is on the top-line (which I agree he is the best option) the line still doesn't produce enough to be an above-average line and the consequences of removing Dube from the middle-6 and making a 3rd line with some combo of Bennett, Backlund, Lucic, Leivo is absolutely garbage. Not to mention Tkachuk having a down year making our 2nd line inconsistent as hell. Again not saying this was the solution and I agree that a guy like Dube would be way better up there, but he isn't a 1st liner either and without him in the middle-6 we're very weak there and still not that good on line 1. Ditto with putting Mang there or stacking Johnny-Money-Lindholm.

Making considerations based upon ways to maximize the performance of your middle 6/bottom 6 is a non-starter for me. You’re going nowhere unless Gaudreau, Monahan, and Tkachuk are your best F’s. Getting them going has always and should always have been the priority. The Oilers go nowhere when McDavid/Draisaitl aren’t producing, and the same can be said for probably every team in the NHL. Putting Ritchie there and forcing that square peg into a round hole for 16 games set them up for failure.

Plus, we’ve only had a small sample of Dube or Mangiapane up there anyways. Certainly not long enough to make any conclusions about how that affects that lineup.

I just think saying 'if Sutter doesn't realize this we're in for 3 long years' is a bit of a misrepresentation of our issues because more of the blame should be on Brad/ management for providing Darryl with this bleh 23 man roster. If Brad doesn't make roster changes than no matter what Darryl does or doesn't do we're in for endless long years.

Sure, but this comment was more in regards to the underlying notion that Sutter could get more say in roster decisions to build a team that he wants. Like, assume (as unrealistic that it is) that Gaudreau and Monahan are both back next season. Cycling through Ritchie types on that line is just a recipe for failure unless there is a way to add a premier power forward there that also has speed and skill. And that would cost a ransom, if even available.

 

[super6646]

The bottom line is, do you think this team does not have an effort problem? Gaudreau and Monahan have had every opportunity under the sun to get it going. It's not as if they were playing well before being paired with Ritchie.


I mean Gaudreau and Monahan were both essentially demoted from the top line, see playing with Ritchie. Being held accountable for rookie mistakes (Valimaki, Dube) is a different animal entirely, but both those guys have had some really inconsistent effort this season in my opinion. Valimaki especially.


Being a mediocre team is a far, far worse outcome. Far better to have this roster picked apart by Sutter so it can be rebuilt, than wallow mediocrity with Ward. People are going to have a hernia seeing how the shape of this roster changes over the next 6 or so months.


Kylington only has speed, so not exactly an answer right now either.

I mean I could see it potentially with some players (Tkachuk has been very lethargic at times), but I do not think Gaudreau and Monahan's poor play is as a result of "poor effort". They've had struggles for a long time. Putting them in a position to fail sure didn't help the last few weeks.

Gaudreau and Monahan still saw significant ES time (1st and 3rd I believe?), so ya they were the top line

Being mediocre sucks, but we pissed away any chances at making the playoffs in a buyers market and then some. Not a great combo either

Our backend lacks mobility and offence. If that's a problem with our team idk why he isn't part of the solution



See, these lines make a TON more sense than the ones we saw a couple weeks ago. These should've been our lines 3 weeks ago when we still had a chance, not these:



Now our best bet is to go on a run for a 10th overall pick and have no shot at the playoffs anyways.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

He has the pieces to make better lineup choices though. You can’t absolve him of blame just because Treliving has also done a poor job. Two things can be true. Like, I can’t just ignore that we’ve got a worse record under Sutter than Ward.


Making considerations based upon ways to maximize the performance of your middle 6/bottom 6 is a non-starter for me. You’re going nowhere unless Gaudreau, Monahan, and Tkachuk are your best F’s. Getting them going has always and should always have been the priority. The Oilers go nowhere when McDavid/Draisaitl aren’t producing, and the same can be said for probably every team in the NHL. Putting Ritchie there and forcing that square peg into a round hole for 16 games set them up for failure.

Plus, we’ve only had a small sample of Dube or Mangiapane up there anyways. Certainly not long enough to make any conclusions about how that affects that lineup.



Sure, but this comment was more in regards to the underlying notion that Sutter could get more say in roster decisions to build a team that he wants. Like, assume (as unrealistic that it is) that Gaudreau and Monahan are both back next season. Cycling through Ritchie types on that line is just a recipe for failure unless there is a way to add a premier power forward there that also has speed and skill. And that would cost a ransom, if even available.

Oh 100% Sutter can't be absolved of all blame I totally agree and I also criticize some of his choices for sure. He's not perfect at all. However, I really don't believe he has the pieces to make us a playoff team. Literally there is no combination of our forwards that would do the trick. We can't ignore the half-season before Sutter (and past seasons) when Ritchie wasn't even a roster consideration. We were still crap then when we tried stacking the top-line or putting other options up there. As for the 'worse record under Sutter than Ward', that's like comparing Anaheim with Buffalo. Both terrible and not set up for success at all. I really think it's completely unfair to judge Sutter based on 20 games of taking over after one of the worst starts to a season in Flames recent history. Sure we have a worse record but we were already awful, had no mental fortitude, and have to appreciate that there may be an adjustment period. Talk about putting a guy in a position to fail by expecting him to salvage a almost completely sunken ship in a month's time. Literally just over 1 month. He hasn't been perfect for sure and I do question his choices, but give the man time. No coach should be judged this harshly after one month considering the mess he walked into. Let him make some mistakes and experiment with certain things for at least a half season before these quick and rash long-term judgements like 'now we're really in for 3 long years' as if we weren't before.

As for the second point about not having merit in making considerations to improve our middle-6, I strongly disagree. Did we learn nothing from stacking Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm? THere's a reason it didn't work. It's not because Dube or Lindholm are the best guy for that role, it's because they don't help johnny and money be good enough AND it guts our depth. It's not like we haven't tried stacking it, we really really have. Again I agree Dube should be up there 100% like I said, and it would lead to improvement, but this is a .5 PPG player playing with Lindholm and Chucky already. Not like we don't play him with skilled guys, and assuming putting Dube/Mang there would fix things based on what we've seen and experimented with before and during Darryl is a recipe for disappointment. Also we are so far from the Oilers and should not look to them for how to maximize our roster. We are completely the opposite - a team without that top talent that needs to win with a great team two-way game. For that exact reason we can't just sacrifice or overlook the value of lines 2 and 3. Especially since we play them pretty much equally.

I agree we aren't going anywhere without Johnny and Chucky as our best players (Monahan is not remotely close and is 10000% behind both Lindholm and Mang), but we have given Chucky the best possible line-mates in Lindholm/Backlund and Dube/Mang, and Johnny has had tons of time with Money and Lindholm. We've proven that we can't just stack the top-lines tho cause we've literally tried it and it didn't work. Do you genuinely believe that with Mang or Dube on the top-line we are likely a playoff team, nevermind a contender? We just aren't even close to being good enough with this roster and one line change will make a marginal improvement. Even tho I fully agree it would lead to improvement with Dube or Mang up there and we need to try it.

Getting Johnny and Chucky going should 100% be our priority, and since we've tried so many combinations and have seen its not gonna work thats why a trade or shake-up is needed. Like thats how we're gonna get them going, not some combination of Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm/Dube/Mang and then a significantly weaker middle-6. Mang is probably our best 5v5 player too and even he is a .5 PPG player and if we stacked him with Johnny and Lindholm we'd be so weak everywhere else and STILL couldn't really rely on that line. It's not an Edmonton situation where our top-line can just carry us. Even if we stack all our good pieces there we wouldn't dominate top-line matchups and just get cratered in everywhere else.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

I mean I could see it potentially with some players (Tkachuk has been very lethargic at times), but I do not think Gaudreau and Monahan's poor play is as a result of "poor effort". They've had struggles for a long time. Putting them in a position to fail sure didn't help the last few weeks.

Gaudreau and Monahan still saw significant ES time (1st and 3rd I believe?), so ya they were the top line

Being mediocre sucks, but we pissed away any chances at making the playoffs in a buyers market and then some. Not a great combo either

Our backend lacks mobility and offence. If that's a problem with our team idk why he isn't part of the solution



See, these lines make a TON more sense than the ones we saw a couple weeks ago. These should've been our lines 3 weeks ago when we still had a chance, not these:



Now our best bet is to go on a run for a 10th overall pick and have no shot at the playoffs anyways.

Lol 3 weeks ago? Try 3 months ago or 1.5 years ago. Blaming Sutter for coming into this mess and experimenting with different combinations for 3 weeks is fair, but pales in comparison to the blame that should be on Brad for having this RW depth, leaving us with few good prospects on the way, and still no cap flexibility to make actual significant changes. And again, do you really think that the roster we ice tonight is even that good? Maybe we win 2-3 more games? Maaaaybe? still doubtful. Also wow I can't believe we actually just put together that top-6 after suggesting it literally an hour ago. Swear i didn't see it before I posted

 

[User1996]

Oh 100% Sutter can't be absolved of all blame I totally agree and I also criticize some of his choices for sure. He's not perfect at all. However, I really don't believe he has the pieces to make us a playoff team. Literally there is no combination of our forwards that would do the trick. We can't ignore the half-season before Sutter (and past seasons) when Ritchie wasn't even a roster consideration. We were still crap then when we tried stacking the top-line or putting other options up there. As for the 'worse record under Sutter than Ward', that's like comparing Anaheim with Buffalo. Both terrible and not set up for success at all. I really think it's completely unfair to judge Sutter based on 20 games of taking over after one of the worst starts to a season in Flames recent history. Sure we have a worse record but we were already awful, had no mental fortitude, and have to appreciate that there may be an adjustment period. Talk about putting a guy in a position to fail by expecting him to salvage a almost completely sunken ship in a month's time. Literally just over 1 month. He hasn't been perfect for sure and I do question his choices, but give the man time. No coach should be judged this harshly after one month considering the mess he walked into. Let him make some mistakes and experiment with certain things for at least a half season before these quick and rash long-term judgements like 'now we're really in for 3 long years' as if we weren't before.

As for the second point about not having merit in making considerations to improve our middle-6, I strongly disagree. Did we learn nothing from stacking Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm? THere's a reason it didn't work. It's not because Dube or Lindholm are the best guy for that role, it's because they don't help johnny and money be good enough AND it guts our depth. It's not like we haven't tried stacking it, we really really have. Again I agree Dube should be up there 100% like I said, and it would lead to improvement, but this is a .5 PPG player playing with Lindholm and Chucky already. Not like we don't play him with skilled guys, and assuming putting Dube/Mang there would fix things based on what we've seen and experimented with before and during Darryl is a recipe for disappointment. Also we are so far from the Oilers and should not look to them for how to maximize our roster. We are completely the opposite - a team without that top talent that needs to win with a great team two-way game. For that exact reason we can't just sacrifice or overlook the value of lines 2 and 3. Especially since we play them pretty much equally.

I agree we aren't going anywhere without Johnny and Chucky as our best players (Monahan is not remotely close and is 10000% behind both Lindholm and Mang), but we have given Chucky the best possible line-mates in Lindholm/Backlund and Dube/Mang, and Johnny has had tons of time with Money and Lindholm. We've proven that we can't just stack the top-lines tho cause we've literally tried it and it didn't work. Do you genuinely believe that with Mang or Dube on the top-line we are likely a playoff team, nevermind a contender? We just aren't even close to being good enough with this roster and one line change will make a marginal improvement. Even tho I fully agree it would lead to improvement with Dube or Mang up there and we need to try it.

Getting Johnny and Chucky going should 100% be our priority, and since we've tried so many combinations and have seen its not gonna work thats why a trade or shake-up is needed. Like thats how we're gonna get them going, not some combination of Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm/Dube/Mang and then a significantly weaker middle-6. Mang is probably our best 5v5 player too and even he is a .5 PPG player and if we stacked him with Johnny and Lindholm we'd be so weak everywhere else and STILL couldn't really rely on that line. It's not an Edmonton situation where our top-line can just carry us. Even if we stack all our good pieces there we wouldn't dominate top-line matchups and just get cratered in everywhere else.

We’ve made so many changes to our bottom 9 since 13/23/28 was even a thing though, so I don’t really see that as a great argument. On paper anyways, our depth should be much improved from the last two years. Like, it’s so much easier to cycle around middle 6/bottom 6 players and upgrade there than it is to bring in a someone who can actually get a couple guys going.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

We’ve made so many changes to our bottom 9 since 13/23/28 was even a thing though, so I don’t really see that as a great argument. On paper anyways, our depth should be much improved from the last two years. Like, it’s so much easier to cycle around middle 6/bottom 6 players and upgrade there than it is to bring in a someone who can actually get a couple guys going.

Definitely, and I'm very happy that we're stacking the lines tonight I fully agree with you that it's an upgrade. I just still think the issues are much deeper and that focusing on Darryl's 15-game Ritchie experiment is missing the mark of where our issues lay. To me the primary issue is exactly that we don't have the assets to bring in someone to get those top-guys going, not that we don't play Dube (.5 PPG already with Chucky and Lindholm) on the top-line as the solution. And idk if I would say our depth is even improved lol, still consistently dressing 4 guys that would easily pass through waivers. pretty pathetic

 

[BudRobinson53]

How much time and space has it provided the top players so far? That’s such a myth.

Speed and skill creates space, not size. I will loathe the day Sutter starts having a say in roster construction as those will be very dark days in today’s NHL.

I thought from his interviews after he was hired he was just a “good hockey mind” and would adjust his beliefs to today’s game, so I was excited for that. But his decisions thus far show that I was probably too excited and that expectation was untrue.

He has 2 cups, how many cups do the entire 6 other coached teams of the North have? You can have a guy thats 3'3 as a board battler - if he can dig them out. But, the reason he needs Richie is because the roster lacks that characteristic (at any size).

Watch Looch go in for a puck along the boards, watch how many times the Dman beating him to the puck hesitates, makes a poor pass or coughs it up. It's hard to play when people are coming for you (playing the body)

 

[Bounces R Way]

No matter what you do with your lines you're not getting far with one top line forward.

This team has gone as Johnny Gaudreau has gone for far too long. Very talented player, will make some other team happy as the #2 or #3 option, but hoping a 5'7 winger can shoulder that much of a load is some extremely wishful thinking. If he's not scoring we're not winning much. Lindholm and Tkachuk can show flashes but they're more of your standard 'good top 6' guys. Monahan maybe on his absolute best day but we haven't seen any of those in a long time.

The more I think about it the happier I am we're going to miss the playoffs. Even if we had actually played up to expectations and got in the 3 or 4 spot does anybody really think we would have had much of a chance. Just a 1st round win would have been a minor miracle At least the team is losing competently under Darryl, under Ward they lacked any semblance of cohesion and turned in poor effort after poor effort. Now when I watch I don't see it as an effort problem, it's a total lack of confidence and a plethora of mental mistakes.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

No matter what you do with your lines you're not getting far with one top line forward.

This team has gone as Johnny Gaudreau has gone for far too long. Very talented player, will make some other team happy as the #2 or #3 option, but hoping a 5'7 winger can shoulder that much of a load is some extremely wishful thinking. If he's not scoring we're not winning much. Lindholm and Tkachuk can show flashes but they're more of your standard 'good top 6' guys. Monahan maybe on his absolute best day but we haven't seen any of those in a long time.

The more I think about it the happier I am we're going to miss the playoffs. Even if we had actually played up to expectations and got in the 3 or 4 spot does anybody really think we would have had much of a chance. Just a 1st round win would have been a minor miracle At least the team is losing competently under Darryl, under Ward they lacked any semblance of cohesion and turned in poor effort after poor effort. Now when I watch I don't see it as an effort problem, it's a total lack of confidence and a plethora of mental mistakes.

100%. Only part that really sucks is that a lot of these issues were like evident in past off seasons and we failed to sell some of our assets higher

 

[User1996]

He has 2 cups, how many cups do the entire 6 other coached teams of the North have? You can have a guy thats 3'3 as a board battler - if he can dig them out. But, the reason he needs Richie is because the roster lacks that characteristic (at any size).

Watch Looch go in for a puck along the boards, watch how many times the Dman beating him to the puck hesitates, makes a poor pass or coughs it up. It's hard to play when people are coming for you (playing the body)

I’ll start by saying that I’m really not sure what the emphasis on cup runs have to do with this - even the most decorated people in their field can and should be open to criticism.

But having played as a defenceman for 18 years, I do disagree that turnovers come from someone chasing you down to play the body. Turnovers come from opposition a) being fast enough to get in and take away time and space and b) taking good routes emphasizing angles and making effective use of their stick. Like Mangiapane is one of our best forecheckers, does he strike fear into opposing D by running them through the boards? No, he takes good routes, engages physically (but not with a big hit any D will fear) and using his stick effectively.

 

[Mazatt]

I feel like we routinely want to gloss over the fact that the schedule is a major road block in a lot of coaching, and personnel decisions that could be made this season.

Just looking at the quote supplied, this is the first major shakeup Sutter is really trying with his own "flair" to it. It coming in the first extended break w/practice time under Sutter is no coincidence, imo. Ritchie on the top line and some of the other fixtures of the lineup existed with Ward and Sutter adopted them since he didn't really have much of a choice. There isn't a lot of room for maneuverability with your lineup if you aren't praciticing.

As far as we've all heard, Sutter is very clear on defined roles and communication expectations. I believe that given those qualities, he can't just go around and throw different things at the wall as much as we'd hope/like to do. It's all about finding consistency and fit. As Sutter said earlier today, [paraphrased] "The way you practice is the way you play." He wants to at least be able to see the lines and how they practice/give them time for some familiarity before throwing them to the wolves. Now whether that drive to stay consistent in spite of poor performance is a good or bad thing can be questioned, but I also like the philosophy he brings in regards to giving players a consistent message, communication with them, and ensuring they are comfortable with changes via practice time. In a shortneed season that last point is contentious, but in a normal, 82-game schedule we wouldn't think twice about it imo.

 

[BudRobinson53]

I’ll start by saying that I’m really not sure what the emphasis on cup runs have to do with this - even the most decorated people in their field can and should be open to criticism.

But having played as a defenceman for 18 years, I do disagree that turnovers come from someone chasing you down to play the body. Turnovers come from opposition a) being fast enough to get in and take away time and space and b) taking good routes emphasizing angles and making effective use of their stick. Like Mangiapane is one of our best forecheckers, does he strike fear into opposing D by running them through the boards? No, he takes good routes, engages physically (but not with a big hit any D will fear) and using his stick effectively.

I don't disagree with Mangiapane - he's a gem. The issue is you can't have a roster of Paul Byron / Mangiapane types and win. The problem is (with this roster) we are too small (outside of Looch) and there is far too much time for the other team to make smarter decisions with no thought of being put through the glass (unless Looch is out there). Playoffs this gets amplified 350% more.

Ideally, like you've said, we all want to be the Tbay Lightning, right?- no disagreement. But, one NHL roster is like that and once salary demands come in, no rosters will be like that. We have to, and deserve to give Daryl his credit. He took a vastly under-talented (only 3 true centermen) team in 04 to a cup final (and many of us are still believing we won). Then he took a "good" LA Kings team to 2 cups at at time when the Blackhawks were a better overall team. The Flames today, on paper, are good enough to be in the playoffs and win a round or 2. They (the core) was the 2nd best overall team a few years ago and had Dallas down 0-2 (Dallas went on to the cup finals). But unfortunately, lack of playoff success those years and regular season success this year point to too many players not willing to play to a higher level of consistency

 

[Rubi]

Right now I really don't care what the line combinations are... as long as they result in more Flames loses. If the Flames lose 13 of the next 16 games they will most likely end up 30th in league standings. That gives them a pretty good shot at a top draft pick.

 

[User1996]

I don't disagree with Mangiapane - he's a gem. The issue is you can't have a roster of Paul Byron / Mangiapane types and win. The problem is (with this roster) we are too small (outside of Looch) and there is far too much time for the other team to make smarter decisions with no thought of being put through the glass (unless Looch is out there). Playoffs this gets amplified 350% more.

Ideally, like you've said, we all want to be the Tbay Lightning, right?- no disagreement. But, one NHL roster is like that and once salary demands come in, no rosters will be like that. We have to, and deserve to give Daryl his credit. He took a vastly under-talented (only 3 true centermen) team in 04 to a cup final (and many of us are still believing we won). Then he took a "good" LA Kings team to 2 cups at at time when the Blackhawks were a better overall team. The Flames today, on paper, are good enough to be in the playoffs and win a round or 2. They (the core) was the 2nd best overall team a few years ago and had Dallas down 0-2 (Dallas went on to the cup finals). But unfortunately, lack of playoff success those years and regular season success this year point to too many players not willing to play to a higher level of consistency

Sure, I mean, I’ve been the first to say multiple times here that there is more than one way to construct a roster to be successful. So I can definitely subscribe to the idea that a more physical, bigger team can find success even if it’s not the way I would build a team. There’s so many ways you can go about it and find success.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

 

[TheHudlinator]

I actually really like those lines, I'm ready to be let down again.

 

[Kahvi]

I really hope Sutter is planning long term and wants to see who works with who. This season is lost, has been for few weeks, so just try to see what you have and have some plan for the off-season based on that.

I never liked how Lindholm and Tkachuk played together this season, will be interesting to see how it works with Gaudreau