Flames Fwd line combinations, D pairings, PP units, PK units, and goalie discussion

[OvermanKingGainer]

Seriously, do other franchises have so much trouble knowing what makes a player a centre

The Hurricanes seemed to struggle with this when Bill Peters coached them. So we took him off their hands.

 

[perronist]

The Hurricanes seemed to struggle with this when Bill Peters coached them. So we took him off their hands.

oh yes, the days of ‘let’s play Aho at W,’ and Lindholm - 3rd line W. brilliant hire all around

 

[HighLifeMan]

Let's all keep blaming Monahan for every little thing!

Monahan has a better pts/60 at even strength than Johhny Gaudreau and Matthew Tkachuk this season
Monahan leads this team in primary assists/60 at even strength this season.
Monahan has outscored both Mangiapane and Dube since the line has been put together.

Yet it's always Monahan's fault. Strange.

Since being split from Johhny here are the splits (five games)

Monahan/Dube/Mangiapane

CF - 45
CA - 45
CF% - 50%
SF - 25
SA - 21
SF% - 54.3%
SCF - 22
SCA - 16
SCF% - 57.9%
xGF% - 53.9%

Gaudreau/Lindholm/Tkachuk

CF - 53
CA - 50
CF% - 51.5%
SF - 30
SA - 26
SF% - 53.6%
SCF - 23
SCA - 26
SCF% - 46.9%
xGF% - 54.2%

 

[DFF]

Let’s free Monahan so he can have a life like Bennett

 

[Dack]

Let's all keep blaming Monahan for every little thing!

Monahan has a better pts/60 at even strength than Johhny Gaudreau and Matthew Tkachuk this season
Monahan leads this team in primary assists/60 at even strength this season.
Monahan has outscored both Mangiapane and Dube since the line has been put together.

Yet it's always Monahan's fault. Strange.

Since being split from Johhny here are the splits (five games)

Monahan/Dube/Mangiapane

CF - 45
CA - 45
CF% - 50%
SF - 25
SA - 21
SF% - 54.3%
SCF - 22
SCA - 16
SCF% - 57.9%
xGF% - 53.9%

Gaudreau/Lindholm/Tkachuk

CF - 53
CA - 50
CF% - 51.5%
SF - 30
SA - 26
SF% - 53.6%
SCF - 23
SCA - 26
SCF% - 46.9%
xGF% - 54.2%

1. Monahan's 5v5 scoring rate is like 0.04 above the 2 other guys which is negligible. Additionally he has 3 5v5 secondary assists compared to Gaudreau's one secondary assist. His IPP (percentage of the goals scored while he's on the ice that he has a point on) is 83.3 tied with Barkov, Marner and McDavid for top 20 or so in the league. Gaudreau's IPP is about 69.5 for comparison. That's the difference right there. Give Johnny a few secondary points (probably more because he makes way more passes than Monahan and secondary assists aren't a very repeatable static I recall) and he's well ahead of Monahan again.

2. Monahan has the same amount of primary assists 5v5 as Johnny and Mangiapane and I've mentioned this before but not all assists are created equal.

3. Mangiapane is a better possession driver than either of Tkachuk or Lindholm. I don't think having comparable stats is some boon of Monahan's suggesting he's a play driver. Despite Dube having poor possession stats I think his issues have more do to with his usage than him as a player.

4. I hate watching Monahan play and hope this is the last season we have to argue about this guy as a Flame. Gaudreau can go too. If Tkachuk won't sign long term next season than him too.

 

[HighLifeMan]

1. Monahan's 5v5 scoring rate is like 0.04 above the 2 other guys which is negligible. Additionally he has 3 5v5 secondary assists compared to Gaudreau's one secondary assist. His IPP (percentage of the goals scored while he's on the ice that he has a point on) is 83.3 tied with Barkov, Marner and McDavid for top 20 or so in the league. Gaudreau's IPP is about 69.5 for comparison. That's the difference right there. Give Johnny a few secondary points (probably more because he makes way more passes than Monahan and secondary assists aren't a very repeatable static I recall) and he's well ahead of Monahan again.

2. Monahan has the same amount of primary assists 5v5 as Johnny and Mangiapane and I've mentioned this before but not all assists are created equal.

3. Mangiapane is a better possession driver than either of Tkachuk or Lindholm. I don't think having comparable stats is some boon of Monahan's suggesting he's a play driver. Despite Dube having poor possession stats I think his issues have more do to with his usage than him as a player.

4. I hate watching Monahan play and hope this is the last season we have to argue about this guy as a Flame. Gaudreau can go too. If Tkachuk won't sign long term next season than him too.

It just goes to show how easy it is to spin a narrative to support a certain viewpoint with statistics.

I also never suggested Monahan was a "play driver", that's not his game, but that doesn't make him a poor or ineffective player either.

These players are playing exactly how they are being asked to play, and the production has dropped off a cliff across the board as a result. It's not an issue of these players being useless or unskilled, it's an issue of these players being asked to play a game they simply don't have the attributes or traits to pull off successfully.

Gaudreau has gone from a top five even strength point producer over a three or four year period to producing at below average third line rates this season. It's absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Mazatt]

Wee woo wee woo wee woo
Monahan on the wing alert


Also Kylington in the top 6 alert

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Wee woo wee woo wee woo
Monahan on the wing alert


Also Kylington in the top 6 alert

If we don’t try Dube at C we’re actually clueless

 

[Mazatt]

If we don’t try Dube at C we’re actually clueless

If we're going to run Dube at C it should be to start next year. Putting him at C for 5 games after playing him 50 games at wing seems counterproductive to seeing his long-term outlook. It just won't tell us anything, while we can figure out of Gawdin/others are anything at the position they've been playing all year.

In my mind the Flames need to end the season, and communicate the positions they want everyone to play and go into next season with that in mind. So Dube at C and any other changes that could be made would be done then. Let them prepare in the offseason for the position they are going to play so preaseason can be an accurate indicator of their performance. Just pushing Dube down the middle, into a tougher position, doesn't seem to have a high enough payoff tbh

 

[RasmusAndersson]

If we're going to run Dube at C it should be to start next year. Putting him at C for 5 games after playing him 50 games at wing seems counterproductive to seeing his long-term outlook. It just won't tell us anything, while we can figure out of Gawdin/others are anything at the position they've been playing all year.

In my mind the Flames need to end the season, and communicate the positions they want everyone to play and go into next season with that in mind. So Dube at C and any other changes that could be made would be done then. Let them prepare in the offseason for the position they are going to play so preaseason can be an accurate indicator of their performance. Just pushing Dube down the middle, into a tougher position, doesn't seem to have a high enough payoff tbh

Imo the time to do it was 20-30 games ago. Now we just aren’t sure if it’s a possibility and that limits our possibilities this off-season. Maybe we already waited too long tho that at this point it may not be enough time for him to get comfortable, but even after the deadline/ a month ago would’ve been plenty of time.

If Dube can play 3C and Lindholm is staying at C then one of Backlund/Monahan can (and should) be shipped for futures, ideally RHS RW’s. Imo Dube’s game is perfectly suited for C and if we bury him on the wing like we did Bennett we’re actually idiots. Maybe he’s not meant for it but if we don’t try it’s just pathetic

 

[super6646]

What a fall from grace for monahan.

He ain’t being traded this summer cause he ain’t getting shit unless we retain.

 

[Some Other Flame]

Monahan for Arvidsson so Poile can complete the hat trick of overrated and overpaid centermen.

 

[Mazatt]

Imo the time to do it was 20-30 games ago. Now we just aren’t sure if it’s a possibility and that limits our possibilities this off-season. Maybe we already waited too long tho that at this point it may not be enough time for him to get comfortable, but even after the deadline/ a month ago would’ve been plenty of time.

If Dube can play 3C and Lindholm is staying at C then one of Backlund/Monahan can (and should) be shipped for futures, ideally RHS RW’s. Imo Dube’s game is perfectly suited for C and if we bury him on the wing like we did Bennett we’re actually idiots. Maybe he’s not meant for it but if we don’t try it’s just pathetic

I just, personally, don't vibe with the idea of switching guys around from centre and wing mid-season when people are young. The time to set someone at centre is the beginning of the season, or following a trade. Having consistency through lineup as much as possible in terms of position and expectations for a player is important.

But I also agree there. Going into next season if they want Dube to get in and be a centre that require one of Linholm, Monahan, or Backlund to shift to wing so he is in a good spot to succeed (doubt he would be an ideal 4C) or they trade one of them. I think it's becoming semi-clear that Backlund is the guy they feel worst on as the wing, and that his contract isn't exactly good trade bait. Monahan and Lindholm can also play the wing which opens up Dube to be a C. Doubt they make a trade just to allow Dube to be a 3C, that'll just be the result of bigger moves if anything.

 

[Mobiandi]

It's very possible Monahan is hardly injured at all. Otherwise what's the point of playing him anymore

 

[RasmusAndersson]

It's very possible Monahan is hardly injured at all. Otherwise what's the point of playing him anymore

1000%. Almost no chance Monahan is injured cause he would’ve been shut down.

 

[TheHudlinator]

Top 4 Nesterov while Valimaki sits is just peak Flames.

 

[super6646]

Top 4 Nesterov while Valimaki sits is just peak Flames.

Idk how people can say sutter has better lineup management than ward. He’s all but okay will stifling kids cause his old ass mentality of vets who play it safe. I wanna barf right now looking at this team.

 

[Mazatt]

Idk how people can say sutter has better lineup management than ward. He’s all but okay will stifling kids cause his old ass mentality of vets who play it safe. I wanna barf right now looking at this team.

Sutter brought consistency to the lineup through his 1st couple weeks here. Unfortunately that consistency was a top line of Gaudreau - Monahan - Ritchie

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Idk how people can say sutter has better lineup management than ward. He’s all but okay will stifling kids cause his old ass mentality of vets who play it safe. I wanna barf right now looking at this team.

Give the guy a training camp at least. I'm not happy with his usage of Kylington/(Bennett) or on the opposite end Ritchie/Nesterov either but he's kind of had to come in on the fly trying to figure out what he has.

I bet next season with a training camp and some necesdary off-season moves, Sutter will have much better lines/player usage.

He's still a much better coach in every other area than anyone since Bob Hartley.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Let's all keep blaming Monahan for every little thing!

Monahan has a better pts/60 at even strength than Johhny Gaudreau and Matthew Tkachuk this season
Monahan leads this team in primary assists/60 at even strength this season.
Monahan has outscored both Mangiapane and Dube since the line has been put together.

Yet it's always Monahan's fault. Strange.

Since being split from Johhny here are the splits (five games)

Monahan/Dube/Mangiapane

CF - 45
CA - 45
CF% - 50%
SF - 25
SA - 21
SF% - 54.3%
SCF - 22
SCA - 16
SCF% - 57.9%
xGF% - 53.9%

Gaudreau/Lindholm/Tkachuk

CF - 53
CA - 50
CF% - 51.5%
SF - 30
SA - 26
SF% - 53.6%
SCF - 23
SCA - 26
SCF% - 46.9%
xGF% - 54.2%

Want to re-visit this. What do their 5v5 stats look like now that they've been separated in the past 12 games?

Monahan:
0.82 Points/60 (11th/11 forwards)
2 Goals, 0 assists (tied with Brett Ritchie for least among forwards)
5v5 TOI/game - 12:12 8th/11
Shots - 10 (8th/11)
Shots/60 - 9th/11 (only ahead of Nordstrom and Ritchie)
Rush Attempts - 0 in 12 games (11th/11). Only other players without rush chances are Lucic, Nordstrom, Ryan
On-Ice Corsi - 53% (7th of 11)
On-Ice GF% - 50% (11th/11)
On-Ice xGF% - (8th/11)


Gaudreau:
3.54 Points/60 (1st/11)
5 goals, 5 assists (1st/11)
5v5 TOI (14:08) - 2nd of 11
Shots - 15 (5th/11)
Rush Chances - 2 in 12 games (3rd/11)
On-Ice Corsi - 56% (3rd/11)
On-Ice GF% - 63% (5th/11)
On-Ice xGF% - 62% (4th/12)

Monahan is fully being used like a 3rd line player at 5v5 and is producing like a low-end 3rd/high-end 4th liner.
Gaudreau is being used like a 1st liner and is producing like a 1st line player.
When is Monahan no longer a top-6 Center away from Gaudreau?

 

[HighLifeMan]

Want to re-visit this. What do their 5v5 stats look like now that they've been separated in the past 12 games?

Monahan:
0.82 Points/60 (11th/11 forwards)
2 Goals, 0 assists (tied with Brett Ritchie for least among forwards)
5v5 TOI/game - 12:12 8th/11
Shots - 10 (8th/11)
Shots/60 - 9th/11 (only ahead of Nordstrom and Ritchie)
Rush Attempts - 0 in 12 games (11th/11). Only other players without rush chances are Lucic, Nordstrom, Ryan
On-Ice Corsi - 53% (7th of 11)
On-Ice GF% - 50% (11th/11)
On-Ice xGF% - (8th/11)


Gaudreau:
3.54 Points/60 (1st/11)
5 goals, 5 assists (1st/11)
5v5 TOI (14:08) - 2nd of 11
Shots - 15 (5th/11)
Rush Chances - 2 in 12 games (3rd/11)
On-Ice Corsi - 56% (3rd/11)
On-Ice GF% - 63% (5th/11)
On-Ice xGF% - 62% (4th/12)

Monahan is fully being used like a 3rd line player at 5v5 and is producing like a low-end 3rd/high-end 4th liner.
Gaudreau is being used like a 1st liner and is producing like a 1st line player.
When is Monahan no longer a top-6 Center away from Gaudreau?

If you want to determine if Monahan has the ability to be a top six center away from Gaudreau he needs to be given the opportunity to do so. As you stated he is not being deployed as such so expecting those results is completely unfair. If these numbers corresponded with Monahan playing top six minutes with legitimate top six talent then it would have to be judged and viewed accordingly. Regardless of all of that Monahan is clearly not playing his best hockey either, and hasn't been for some time. I am not going to deny that.

Gaudreau has found chemistry with by far the most productive forward we have had all season in Lindholm, and the teams leading scorer from last season in Tkachuk. That's great news for the organization, but is hardly a death blow for Monahan or a determining factor in his abilities as a hockey player. If the roles were reversed I would be saying the same thing.

 

[Lunatik]

If you want to determine if Monahan has the ability to be a top six center away from Gaudreau he needs to be given the opportunity to do so. As you stated he is not being deployed as such so expecting those results is completely unfair. If these numbers corresponded with Monahan playing top six minutes with legitimate top six talent then it would have to be judged and viewed accordingly. Regardless of all of that Monahan is clearly not playing his best hockey either, and hasn't been for some time. I am not going to deny that.

Gaudreau has found chemistry with by far the most productive forward we have had all season in Lindholm, and the teams leading scorer from last season in Tkachuk. That's great news for the organization, but is hardly a death blow for Monahan or a determining factor in his abilities as a hockey player. If the roles were reversed I would be saying the same thing.

I'm guessing it is a diminished role due to injury, but Monahan in that reduced role is going to help more than anyone they can call up.

 

[DFF]

If you want to determine if Monahan has the ability to be a top six center away from Gaudreau he needs to be given the opportunity to do so. As you stated he is not being deployed as such so expecting those results is completely unfair. If these numbers corresponded with Monahan playing top six minutes with legitimate top six talent then it would have to be judged and viewed accordingly. Regardless of all of that Monahan is clearly not playing his best hockey either, and hasn't been for some time. I am not going to deny that.

Gaudreau has found chemistry with by far the most productive forward we have had all season in Lindholm, and the teams leading scorer from last season in Tkachuk. That's great news for the organization, but is hardly a death blow for Monahan or a determining factor in his abilities as a hockey player. If the roles were reversed I would be saying the same thing.

Like Bennett, the Flames do not have good top 6 player for him to play with other than Gaudreau. Tkachuk is not a good fit for some reason and Lindholm stopped working for some time now.

That’s on the wizard and magically he still has a job

 

[super6646]

Better than the last ones for sure. Simon being in there over Phillips is just lmao worthy.

 

[User1996]

Looks like Sutter is still trying to lock up a playoff spot