Flames Fwd line combinations, D pairings, PP units, PK units, and goalie discussion

[Ace Rimmer]

This is unjustifiable

Do you want a top five pick or not?!

Sheesh

Yes, I hide the pain with sarcasm, why do you ask?

 

[InfinityIggy]

This is unjustifiable

I mean, it's obviously bad. Is it unjustifiable though? Which of our forwards has been putting in more effort than Ritchie?

Our season is over. I don't care if Nordstrom is getting the most minutes at this point. Give the time to the guys who still GAF.

 

[super6646]

I mean, it's obviously bad. Is it unjustifiable though? Which of our forwards has been putting in more effort than Ritchie?

Our season is over. I don't care if Nordstrom is getting the most minutes at this point. Give the time to the guys who still GAF.

It sure as hell wasn’t over until our massive losing streak. And giving mins to “effort” players ensures we’ll be bad for a long long long time.

 

[InfinityIggy]

It sure as hell wasn’t over until our massive losing streak. And giving mins to “effort” players ensures we’ll be bad for a long long long time.

No it doesn't.

 

[super6646]

No it doesn't.

What’s our record again?

I put quotes besides effort btw for a reason.

 

[User1996]

Ritchie sucks. He’s not even a guy that stands out as having anything “high-effort” to his game. Skates hard to get in on a forecheck and hit the boards. Aside from that, smaller players like Tkachuk and Mangiapane actually get into the middle of the ice and “dirty” areas more often than Ritchie with his big frame.

 

[InfinityIggy]

What’s our record again?

I put quotes besides effort btw for a reason.

How'd we end up with that record?

 

[HighLifeMan]

I mean, it's obviously bad. Is it unjustifiable though? Which of our forwards has been putting in more effort than Ritchie?

Our season is over. I don't care if Nordstrom is getting the most minutes at this point. Give the time to the guys who still GAF.

I mean the problem is that when Sutter took over we were right in the thick of the playoff race. Playing Ritchie as much as he has is in no way justifiable. Ritchie belongs in the AHL. Not playing more minutes than Tkachuk and Lindholm at even strength, while statistically handicapping the top line and minimizing trade values. It's embarrassing.

While coaching clearly is not the focal point of our struggles Sutter shouldn't escape criticism either. He's been far from perfect.

 

[super6646]

How'd we end up with that record?

By playing guys like Ritchie that much lmao. We're 2-8-0 in our last 10 largely with Ritchie on that top line which completely neutralized it on its own.

We were still in a playoff race until this losing streak. The lineup decisions put out were unjustifiable and dug this team a hole that will not and cannot be overcome anymore.

 

[InfinityIggy]

I mean the problem is that when Sutter took over we were right in the thick of the playoff race. Playing Ritchie as much as he has is in no way justifiable. Ritchie belongs in the AHL. Not playing more minutes than Tkachuk and Lindholm at even strength, while statistically handicapping the top line and minimizing trade values. It's embarrassing.

While coaching clearly is not the focal point of our struggles Sutter shouldn't escape criticism either. He's been far from perfect.

By playing guys like Ritchie that much lmao. We're 2-8-0 in our last 10 largely with Ritchie on that top line which completely neutralized it on its own.

We were still in a playoff race until this losing streak. The lineup decisions put out were unjustifiable and dug this team a hole that will not and cannot be overcome anymore.

I'll ask again, which players put in more effort than Ritchie? Obviously he isn't a top line player. Sutter didn't put him there because he thinks he is one. He put him there because most of our forward group has been mailing it in.

If you think we were playing like a playoff team before Sutter took over, I just don't know what to tell you.

 

[super6646]

I'll ask again, which players put in more effort than Ritchie? Obviously he isn't a top line player. Sutter didn't put him there because he thinks he is one. He put him there because most of our forward group has been mailing it in.

If you think we were playing like a playoff team before Sutter took over, I just don't know what to tell you.

But effort is very subjective Infinity. And frankly even if it isn't who tf cares if someone puts in more "effort"? We're trying to ice the best lineup, not a lineup of guys who try. Giordano sure as hell tries a lot, should we give him 26 minutes a night for that still?

Mangiapane is a guy who tries a lot; 4th line duties for several games for reasons. So frankly even idk if that was what it was.

No we probably weren't making the playoffs, but he pretty much deliberately tanked the roster w/o planning to do it. Anyone with any foresight here knew these decisions were gonna end in disaster, and then volla. This is a results based game, and by that accord Geoff Ward did more with this roster than Daryl Sutter. Doing that and tanking the values of Gaudreau and Monahan are pretty much unforgivable. Any other coach does this and fans here are calling for his head rn.

 

[Mobiandi]

Ritchie is playing big 5v5 minutes because he is on the top line. Ritchie is on the top line because this organization can't fathom the idea of splitting up Gaudreau and Monahan. It's really as simple as that.

If the love for Ritchie ran as deep as people think it did, he'd be on the PP like Chiasson was over here.

 

[User1996]

I'll ask again, which players put in more effort than Ritchie? Obviously he isn't a top line player. Sutter didn't put him there because he thinks he is one. He put him there because most of our forward group has been mailing it in.

If you think we were playing like a playoff team before Sutter took over, I just don't know what to tell you.

Lindholm, Mangiapane, Lucic are three that should absolutely get more time than Ritchie if you’re going by effort. I don’t think their effort is questionable. The “effort” argument flies right out the window when Mangiapane is probably the highest effort player on the team and gets less ice than Ritchie.

This isn’t an effort argument...it’s a Daryl Sutter has a hard on for big, physical players conversation

 

[super6646]

Lindholm, Mangiapane, Lucic are three that should absolutely get more time than Ritchie. I don’t think their effort is questionable. The “effort” argument flies right out the window when Mangiapane is probably the highest effort player on the team and gets less ice than Ritchie.

This isn’t an effort argument...it’s a Daryl Sutter has a hard on for big, physical players conversation

DING DING DING DING DING DING DING!

 

[InfinityIggy]

But effort is very subjective Infinity. And frankly even if it isn't who tf cares if someone puts in more "effort"? We're trying to ice the best lineup, not a lineup of guys who try. Giordano sure as hell tries a lot, should we give him 26 minutes a night for that still?

Mangiapane is a guy who tries a lot; 4th line duties for several games for reasons. So frankly even idk if that was what it was.

No we probably weren't making the playoffs, but he pretty much deliberately tanked the roster w/o planning to do it. Anyone with any foresight here knew these decisions were gonna end in disaster, and then volla. This is a results based game, and by that accord Geoff Ward did more with this roster than Daryl Sutter.

That you can't answer that question, is really my point in a nutshell. As much as you'd like skill and effort to be mutually exclusive, they simply are not. Feeding guys top minutes when they've mentally checked out is how you end up mired in a losing culture for years. Thinking keeping Geoff Ward would've made some difference is just.. you'd need to have such a short memory that the only conclusion I can come to is that you don't really believe the point you are making.

If you think our losing streak is down to using guys like Ritchie being on the top line, that so very naively optimistic. Big names are gonna be out the door this summer, and its because those big names can't stand up to adversity. We've seen it year after year.

 

[BudRobinson53]

Good to change up the lines - completely. Players have become to accustomed to their built in locators of where player "x" and "y" will be, will do, vs. going back to the instincts of competing hard.

Ritchie isn't the problem, he's the cure. You NEED board battlers / puck retrievers under a Daryl Sutter system. Get prepared to see 3 clones of him on this roster (with size) next year. This provides time and space for your talented players, which is what they lack now, making them look less talented - it's a cycle.

 

[User1996]

I’d probably check out too if I was asked to carry around an AHL player on what is expected to be a 1st line in the NHL...

 

[InfinityIggy]

Lindholm, Mangiapane, Lucic are three that should absolutely get more time than Ritchie if you’re going by effort. I don’t think their effort is questionable. The “effort” argument flies right out the window when Mangiapane is probably the highest effort player on the team and gets less ice than Ritchie.

This isn’t an effort argument...it’s a Daryl Sutter has a hard on for big, physical players conversation

Don't really agree regarding Lindholm. Lucic kind of falls under the same classification as Ritichie, but Ritchie is a much better skater. Mangiapane I can certainly agree with you on.

Also, physicality counts as effort. So not sure why it's being used as a counter argument. It demonstrates my point.

 

[Mobiandi]

Ritchie isn't the problem, he's the cure. You NEED board battlers / puck retrievers under a Daryl Sutter system. Get prepared to see 3 clones of him on this roster (with size) next year. This provides time and space for your talented players, which is what they lack now, making them look less talented - it's a cycle.

This is pretty much the gist of it. You have 5'7" Gaudreau and Sean "hands in his pockets" Monahan. The rest of the team's possible options at RW don't have enough skill to make up for their lack of grit so that's how you end up with Brett Ritchie on the top line (who's also a RHS).

 

[DFF]

Shuffle the lines, start winning some meaningless games, draft mid teens, claim we are too good to miss again

Rinse and repeat

PS: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, it’s a duck no matter how you dress it up.
Only solution is tear down and rebuild from scratch, starting with Treliving

 

[User1996]

Good to change up the lines - completely. Players have become to accustomed to their built in locators of where player "x" and "y" will be, will do, vs. going back to the instincts of competing hard.

Ritchie isn't the problem, he's the cure. You NEED board battlers / puck retrievers under a Daryl Sutter system. Get prepared to see 3 clones of him on this roster (with size) next year. This provides time and space for your talented players, which is what they lack now, making them look less talented - it's a cycle.

How much time and space has it provided the top players so far? That’s such a myth.

Speed and skill creates space, not size. I will loathe the day Sutter starts having a say in roster construction as those will be very dark days in today’s NHL.

I thought from his interviews after he was hired he was just a “good hockey mind” and would adjust his beliefs to today’s game, so I was excited for that. But his decisions thus far show that I was probably too excited and that expectation was untrue.

 

[InfinityIggy]

How much time and space has it provided the top players so far? That’s such a myth.

Speed and skill creates space, not size. I will loathe the day Sutter starts having a say in roster construction as those will be very dark days in today’s NHL.

I thought from his interviews after he was hired he was just a “good hockey mind” and would adjust his beliefs to today’s game, so I was excited for that. But his decisions thus far show that I was probably too excited and that expectation was untrue.

Yes it does, but when you've got a roster without any speed that strategy doesn't work.

 

[super6646]

That you can't answer that question, is really my point in a nutshell. As much as you'd like skill and effort to be mutually exclusive, they simply are not. Feeding guys top minutes when they've mentally checked out is how you end up mired in a losing culture for years. Thinking keeping Geoff Ward would've made some difference is just.. you'd need to have such a short memory that the only conclusion I can come to is that you don't really believe the point you are making.

If you think our losing streak is down to using guys like Ritchie being on the top line, that so very naively optimistic. Big names are gonna be out the door this summer, and its because those big names can't stand up to adversity. We've seen it year after year.

I'll start by saying I do really believe what I am saying lol. Conviction is something I hardly lack in an argument.

As for effort being subjective? Well just ask any fanbase how much effort their team puts in when they win and lose. It's no surprise losing is often associated with a "lack of effort" and "weakness", even though that is hardly the case. And during our losing streak I saw a lot of it, but when the coach shoots ya in the foot (Ritchie has some of the worst possession metrics in the league) there is only so much you can do. Gaudreau and Monahan have absolutely disappointed, but when you put them in a position to fail well that's on the coach too.

And in terms of feeding top minutes to guys checked out... uhhh no this doesn't hold up either. Mangiapane was a guy who never looked check out when he got punished. Dube was scratched because he made mistakes, ditto with Valimaki. I see younger players being held to a higher standard because of mistakes with execution, not necessarily a lack of effort. And if we were to believe Gaudreau and Monahan are checked out and your argument holds, well why are we still playing them big minutes then?

As for Geoff Ward... well I mean the record is the record. I never said he was bringing us to the promise land, but when you have the worst record in the league in the past 10 almost anything is better than that.

 

[super6646]

Yes it does, but when you've got a roster without any speed that strategy doesn't work.

Kylington and Dube both have speed. No one told him Leivo and Ritchie and Stone needed to play in the top 6 fwd and d.

 

[Mobiandi]

Ritchie dropped to the 4th line in the new line mix from yesterday and has also found himself back there when he's experimented with other RWs on the 1st line. Sutter isn't under any illusions as to what Ritchie is or could be. He just knows that our top guys are fundamentally flawed in certain aspects