Proposal: Flames and Avs

[lionsDen]

I see way too much salary coming to Colorado. That right there declines even the conversation to be started back to the drawing board

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Are you computer illiterate? If you are on mobile you can drag left an right on the sceeen, if you are on PC you can click the scroll wheel then move the mouse to the left or right, if you use a track pad on a laptop you use a 2 finger drag to go left and right.

Nobody is saying he is a bad prospect but he was drafted right where he was expected to go and still would go in a redraft now, 20-30 range. He wasn't good enough to make World Juniors, and he's not doing anything in particular in juniors that says he should be above his peers. Of players who went even top 15 in the draft, 4 of them are NHL regulars, and everyone else that was eligible to play in the WJC was in that tournament. If we expand that to the top 20, only Colby Barlow did not go to World Juniors, but Oliver Bonk (#22), Gabe Perreault (#23), and Otto Stenberg (#25) did.

Hell, I would argue Andrew Cristal and Riley Heidt who were drafted 40th and 64th OA better prospects than Ritchie right now based on CHL production.

Considering I've been working in IT for almost 30 years at this point, I'm pretty sure my problem is that I'm much too lazy to try to figure out whether I can scroll on a page that gives zero visual indication that there are more columns to view or that scrolling is even possible. Do you regularly try to scroll on pages where it doesn't even look like an option? I'd rather not waste my time trying to see if there's hidden information on poorly designed sites.

And, nobody knows for certain where Ritchie might have been expected to go if he hadn't hurt his shoulder while scoring 10 points in 5 games at the Hlinka Gretzky Cup before his draft season. After that tournament, Bob McKenzie had him ranked as the 6th best prospect to start his draft year. How much did the shoulder injury play into him dropping into the 20s by the end of the season? How much did his draft year playing with a torn labrum and the subsequent surgery that kept him out until November 12th play into him not making the World Juniors team? I'm pretty sure it had a non-zero impact, and things could have played out very differently had he been healthy, and you pointing out the things that happened after the injury isn't doing much to convince me otherwise. Similarly, your opinion of who is a better prospect isn't doing much to convince me that dumping Ritchie for a rental Lindholm would be idiotic.

 

[lionsDen]

Are you computer illiterate? If you are on mobile you can drag left an right on the sceeen, if you are on PC you can click the scroll wheel then move the mouse to the left or right, if you use a track pad on a laptop you use a 2 finger drag to go left and right.

Nobody is saying he is a bad prospect but he was drafted right where he was expected to go and still would go in a redraft now, 20-30 range. He wasn't good enough to make World Juniors, and he's not doing anything in particular in juniors that says he should be above his peers. Of players who went even top 15 in the draft, 4 of them are NHL regulars, and everyone else that was eligible to play in the WJC was in that tournament. If we expand that to the top 20, only Colby Barlow did not go to World Juniors, but Oliver Bonk (#22), Gabe Perreault (#23), and Otto Stenberg (#25) did.

Hell, I would argue Andrew Cristal and Riley Heidt who were drafted 40th and 64th OA better prospects than Ritchie right now based on CHL production.

Then you wouldn’t mind if we took Ritchie out of the proposal. I know I don’t want him in it, thanks

 

[lionsDen]

Considering I've been working in IT for almost 30 years at this point, I'm pretty sure my problem is that I'm much too lazy to try to figure out whether I can scroll on a page that gives zero visual indication that there are more columns to view or that scrolling is even possible. Do you regularly try to scroll on pages where it doesn't even look like an option? I'd rather not waste my time trying to see if there's hidden information on poorly designed sites.

And, nobody knows for certain where Ritchie might have been expected to go if he hadn't hurt his shoulder while scoring 10 points in 5 games at the Hlinka Gretzky Cup before his draft season. After that tournament, Bob McKenzie had him ranked as the 6th best prospect to start his draft year. How much did the shoulder injury play into him dropping into the 20s by the end of the season? How much did his draft year playing with a torn labrum and the subsequent surgery that kept him out until November 12th play into him not making the World Juniors team? I'm pretty sure it had a non-zero impact, and things could have played out very differently had he been healthy, and you pointing out the things that happened after the injury isn't doing much to convince me otherwise. Similarly, your opinion of who is a better prospect isn't doing much to convince me that dumping Ritchie for a rental Lindholm would be idiotic.

What’s concerning is lindholms play this year, it’s been quite frankly bad like ryjo bad

 

[Djp]

I have no doubt whatsoever Lindholm returns a 1st, prospect, and potentially young roster player. I have no doubt Tanev likely can return at least a 2nd but maybe even a 1st.

I have 102% certainty with a 2% margin for error that the Flames would get all of that from the Colorado Avalanche in exchange for two rentals.

Thst returnl could have occurred last deadline. Not now

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Then you wouldn’t mind if we took Ritchie out of the proposal. I know I don’t want him in it, thanks

The proposal has Byram in it, so sure, take him out. I want Byram but have no expectations that we can get him

 

[lionsDen]

The proposal has Byram in it, so sure, take him out. I want Byram but have no expectations that we can get him

Yeah, with all due respect I’m a little Leary on lindholm. I don’t know what lindholms value is. 1st +

 

[biturbo19]

Considering I've been working in IT for almost 30 years at this point, I'm pretty sure my problem is that I'm much too lazy to try to figure out whether I can scroll on a page that gives zero visual indication that there are more columns to view or that scrolling is even possible. Do you regularly try to scroll on pages where it doesn't even look like an option? I'd rather not waste my time trying to see if there's hidden information on poorly designed sites.

And, nobody knows for certain where Ritchie might have been expected to go if he hadn't hurt his shoulder while scoring 10 points in 5 games at the Hlinka Gretzky Cup before his draft season. After that tournament, Bob McKenzie had him ranked as the 6th best prospect to start his draft year. How much did the shoulder injury play into him dropping into the 20s by the end of the season? How much did his draft year playing with a torn labrum and the subsequent surgery that kept him out until November 12th play into him not making the World Juniors team? I'm pretty sure it had a non-zero impact, and things could have played out very differently had he been healthy, and you pointing out the things that happened after the injury isn't doing much to convince me otherwise. Similarly, your opinion of who is a better prospect isn't doing much to convince me that dumping Ritchie for a rental Lindholm would be idiotic.

I don't know if you can completely pin his draft season on having a lingering injury. There was distinct inconsistency to Ritchie's game. But the flashes were absolutely there, and all the tools to be an impact Top-6 NHLer for sure.

Some people thought i was trolling when i had him ranked Top-15 in the draft, and when i was write-in voting for him in the hfboards "Top Prospect Polls" prior to the season.


Who knows what he'll actually become...but i certainly like his potential upside. I see him as a little Jared McCann-like. Has that same savvy offensive game and wicked shot. Just ended up pigeonholed as something else because the numbers in his draft year didn't jump off the page.



All that said...i value Ritchie as more than a typical "late 1st". Especially given a very positive year of post-draft trajectory. A year closer to NHL impact. But the price for someone like Lindholm is going to be in that sort of range. More likely it is just a 1st round pick+ B Prospect + Somewhat useful Cap Offset type thing. But that sort of package isn't terribly far off from including a prospect like Ritchie in a vacuum.

I can see why the Avs would be hesitant to move him. But that might be the price of admission, if you want the premiere deadline Center addition. Lindholm is in a bit of a scoring slump, but he's still a completely landscape shifting sort of acquisition, especially for a team that is desperately lacking a quality #2C...upgrading from a quasi-#3C to a #1C.


The other stuff is what really tilts this proposal as a whole. Basically becomes Byram for a rental old man Tanev. Which is insane.

 

[Winged Wheel Willy]

Calgary should realize it’s not working and pimp all the contenders in the west except Edmonton. Lindholm to COL, Tanev to VAN, Hanifin to DAL, and Markstrom to VGK.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Calgary should realize it’s not working and pimp all the contenders in the west except Edmonton. Lindholm to COL, Tanev to VAN, Hanifin to DAL, and Markstrom to VGK.

Why Markstrom to Vegas? They have hill

 

[keglu]

Hell, I would argue Andrew Cristal and Riley Heidt who were drafted 40th and 64th OA better prospects than Ritchie right now based on CHL production.

You would argue that 40th pick that improved by 10% from draft year, and 64pick that improved by 20% are now better prospect than 27pick that improved by 70%?
Good luck with that argument.

 

[Double Dion]

Yeah, with all due respect I’m a little Leary on lindholm. I don’t know what lindholms value is. 1st +

We kind of do know what his value is. ROR trade and Horvat trade happened just last year. He's right in that group. Horvat was having a better year, ROR a worse one.

Calgary should realize it’s not working and pimp all the contenders in the west except Edmonton. Lindholm to COL, Tanev to VAN, Hanifin to DAL, and Markstrom to VGK.

I wonder if Dallas would take both Hanifin and Tanev? I wonder about Winnipeg for Lindholm? He'd fit their needs just as well as the Avs. Better maybe with their abysmal PK. Dallas has so many interesting D prospects and 2 interesting forward ones.

 

[McJedi]

You know there is literally an option to sort by pts/g on the OHL website. Maybe do that before spouting off wrong information. Ritchie has the 5th best pts/g rate with 1.54, the last 2 years that rate would have finished 8th in the league. If you genuinely think his scoring rate is is closer to a top 5 pick them Toronto must have drafted a perennial superstar in Easton Cowen.

Another monster game for Ritchie last night. Now up to 1.73 ppg. And insane +29 in 26 games. His team is now knocking on first place in the east. They were in last place when Ritchie got a late start to his season after recovering from offseason shoulder surgery.

if the Avs offered Ritchie and nothing else for Lindholm, Flames would instantly accept. Flames would retain 50% as well.

and Avs shouldn’t do this.

but if the Avs want to take the short sighted route.

Ritchie + RyJo for Lindholm (50% retained). Lindholm is a rental but this does free up cap space for next season for Avs so losing Ritchie helps this season and next.

Flames get their future 1 or 2C.

 

[Winged Wheel Willy]

Why Markstrom to Vegas? They have hill

Just examples, you get the point.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Another monster game for Ritchie last night. Now up to 1.73 ppg. And insane +29 in 26 games. His team is now knocking on first place in the east. They were in last place when Ritchie got a late start to his season after recovering from offseason shoulder surgery.

if the Avs offered Ritchie and nothing else for Lindholm, Flames would instantly accept. Flames would retain 50% as well.

and Avs shouldn’t do this.

but if the Avs want to take the short sighted route.

Ritchie + RyJo for Lindholm (50% retained). Lindholm is a rental but this does free up cap space for next season for Avs so losing Ritchie helps this season and next.

Flames get their future 1 or 2C.

Lol, a 2 point night in the OHL is not a "monster game." Most half decent OHL players sit somewhere between 1-2 pts/g over the course of a season, it's impossible to get half a point so occasionally those players have multi point games. Again nobody called him a bad prospect but you are drastically over rating him. Highly unlikely he will ever be as good as Lindholm and probably has a ceiling similar to Newhook.

Nucks fans are offer Brzustewics + 1st and considering Brzustewics is at 1.53 pts/g in the same league as a right handed defenseman and also leads his team in points I'll take that over "Ritchie and nothing else" every day of the week and twice on Sunday's.

You are not going to get Lindholm with a lowball offer, gotta get that through your head. He has zero trade protection so Calgary can send him anywhere and the top 4 teams in the league are looking to add a top 6 center. You can't haggle at an auction.

 

[McJedi]

Lol, a 2 point night in the OHL is not a "monster game." Most half decent OHL players sit somewhere between 1-2 pts/g over the course of a season, it's impossible to get half a point so occasionally those players have multi point games. Again nobody called him a bad prospect but you are drastically over rating him. Highly unlikely he will ever be as good as Lindholm and probably has a ceiling similar to Newhook.

Nucks fans are offer Brzustewics + 1st and considering Brzustewics is at 1.53 pts/g in the same league as a right handed defenseman and also leads his team in points I'll take that over "Ritchie and nothing else" every day of the week and twice on Sunday's.

Your math is as pathetic as the OPs garbage offer. 1G + 3As = 4 points. Ritchie was also the first star of the win. Scored the game winner too. That’s a monster game.

hes 4th in the OHL in PPG. He's got the top +/- per game too. Kid is good at 5 vs 5 hockey. Doesn’t play with a bunch of other 1st rounders like the Sudbury guys.

im sure Flames will have options for their poorly performing 1C.

Avs are in a comfortable spot today. No games until Feb 5th. Parise joining 4th line. First place in central. No need to do anything for a while. No cap space to work with either. Flames are falling apart. Let that train continue to derail. More pressure on their GM.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Considering I've been working in IT for almost 30 years at this point, I'm pretty sure my problem is that I'm much too lazy to try to figure out whether I can scroll on a page that gives zero visual indication that there are more columns to view or that scrolling is even possible. Do you regularly try to scroll on pages where it doesn't even look like an option? I'd rather not waste my time trying to see if there's hidden information on poorly designed sites.

And, nobody knows for certain where Ritchie might have been expected to go if he hadn't hurt his shoulder while scoring 10 points in 5 games at the Hlinka Gretzky Cup before his draft season. After that tournament, Bob McKenzie had him ranked as the 6th best prospect to start his draft year. How much did the shoulder injury play into him dropping into the 20s by the end of the season? How much did his draft year playing with a torn labrum and the subsequent surgery that kept him out until November 12th play into him not making the World Juniors team? I'm pretty sure it had a non-zero impact, and things could have played out very differently had he been healthy, and you pointing out the things that happened after the injury isn't doing much to convince me otherwise. Similarly, your opinion of who is a better prospect isn't doing much to convince me that dumping Ritchie for a rental Lindholm would be idiotic.

In a redraft he wouldn’t be too much off from where he was drafted. Too soon to judge any recent 1st rounder.

 

[McJedi]

In a redraft he wouldn’t be too much off from where he was drafted. Too soon to judge any recent 1st rounder.

A six’3 C scoring at a 1.73/ppg pace in the OHL doesn’t fall to the end of round 1.

Esp one considered to be a strong skater with good hands.

He fell because he was significantly injured and it affected his play in his draft season. Your classic risk vs reward pick. Sometimes they work out.

He probably goes top 10 today with hindsight.

The player the Avs took with your pick. gulyaev. He’s had a fantastic season in the KHL. Has progressed from his team’s number 7 to their middle pair. Played in 100% of the games he was available and has great defensive metics. He looks like a future number 3. His KHL coach loves him. He’s still just 18. He’s on the number 1 team in the eastern conference too.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

A six’3 C scoring at a 1.73/ppg pace in the OHL doesn’t fall to the end of round 1.

Esp one considered to be a strong skater with good hands.

He fell because he was significantly injured and it affected his play in his draft season. Your classic risk vs reward pick. Sometimes they work out.

He probably goes top 10 today with hindsight.

No he wouldn't. Top-10 quality players get drafted top-10 despite injuries. No GM would look at Ritchie as a top-10 quality 1st rounder in any trade. Its too soon to assess.

 

[McJedi]

No he wouldn't. Top-10 quality players get drafted top-10 despite injuries. No GM would look at Ritchie as a top-10 quality 1st rounder in any trade. It’s too soon to assess.

Any GM would see a guy that’s a big C scoring a ton in the OHL and say… damn… how’d we miss seeing kid? He’s fast. He’s defensively strong and he’s got good hands.

He’s exactly the kind of prospect most clubs need in their pipeline. A big, scoring C that also PKs.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Any GM would see a guy that’s a big C scoring a ton in the OHL and say… damn… how’d we miss seeing kid? He’s fast. He’s defensively strong and he’s got good hands.

He’s exactly the kind of prospect most clubs need in their pipeline. A big, scoring C that also PKs.

IMO, in a redraft he would be 18 to 25ish. There isn't much that has changed. Ritchie needs a much larger subset of games played before anyone can re-rank him.

Avs fans are behaving like Habs fans here!

 

[Double Dion]

Another monster game for Ritchie last night. Now up to 1.73 ppg. And insane +29 in 26 games. His team is now knocking on first place in the east. They were in last place when Ritchie got a late start to his season after recovering from offseason shoulder surgery.

if the Avs offered Ritchie and nothing else for Lindholm, Flames would instantly accept. Flames would retain 50% as well.

and Avs shouldn’t do this.

but if the Avs want to take the short sighted route.

Ritchie + RyJo for Lindholm (50% retained). Lindholm is a rental but this does free up cap space for next season for Avs so losing Ritchie helps this season and next.

Flames get their future 1 or 2C.

We wouldn't. I get it if you don't want to trade him. That's fine, but we wouldn't accept just Ritchie. The value isn't where we need it. I'd sooner take offers on the table from Winnipeg or Vancouver than just Ritchie. Brustewicz is almost as good and the 1st and 2nd more than makes up the difference.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

Avs just signed a guy that has 1 less goal than Lindholm in the last 20ish games. Lindholm is definitely worth a fortune and a half with these clutch performances midway through the season, his passion alone is worth 5 1sts

 

[FLAMESFAN]

Avs just signed a guy that has 1 less goal than Lindholm in the last 20ish games. Lindholm is definitely worth a fortune and a half with these clutch performances midway through the season, his passion alone is worth 5 1sts

Disappointing you are happy with what you have. Good luck with that.
Lucklily those that run the Avs prob don't feel as smug as you.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I don't know if you can completely pin his draft season on having a lingering injury. There was distinct inconsistency to Ritchie's game. But the flashes were absolutely there, and all the tools to be an impact Top-6 NHLer for sure.

Some people thought i was trolling when i had him ranked Top-15 in the draft, and when i was write-in voting for him in the hfboards "Top Prospect Polls" prior to the season.


Who knows what he'll actually become...but i certainly like his potential upside. I see him as a little Jared McCann-like. Has that same savvy offensive game and wicked shot. Just ended up pigeonholed as something else because the numbers in his draft year didn't jump off the page.



All that said...i value Ritchie as more than a typical "late 1st". Especially given a very positive year of post-draft trajectory. A year closer to NHL impact. But the price for someone like Lindholm is going to be in that sort of range. More likely it is just a 1st round pick+ B Prospect + Somewhat useful Cap Offset type thing. But that sort of package isn't terribly far off from including a prospect like Ritchie in a vacuum.

I can see why the Avs would be hesitant to move him. But that might be the price of admission, if you want the premiere deadline Center addition. Lindholm is in a bit of a scoring slump, but he's still a completely landscape shifting sort of acquisition, especially for a team that is desperately lacking a quality #2C...upgrading from a quasi-#3C to a #1C.


The other stuff is what really tilts this proposal as a whole. Basically becomes Byram for a rental old man Tanev. Which is insane.

I agree that it's hard to say how much the injury impacted him, but it's also hard to imagine that a torn labrum didn't cause any problems for him. I've dealt with shoulder injuries, and they tend to make life absolutely miserable.

I also agree that there's no guarantees he'll reach his potential, but he's got the combination of size and skill that makes me think he could be a good young long term affordable 2C (or more) in the relatively near future.

As for Lindholm, I can't remember the last time a premiere deadline rental actually helped his team win the Cup, so, I don't see why anyone would consider paying that price of admission. But, then again, desperate GMs aren't exactly known for being smart...