Proposal: FLA-TOR July 2nd

[FerrisRox]

You don't improve your D, by signing an offensively strong, but defensive black hole, to $5-6 mil plus contract in Barrie, or just a subpar D in Ceci, if you want to improve your D... at least the defensive side of the game.

I agree with you. I was against adding either of those guys this year and I'm certainly not advocating bringing them back.

But the question remains: who plays defense for them next year.

For the last four off-seasons, the Leafs biggest weaknesses have been they are way too soft and way too poor defensively and Dubas continues to ignore them.

The team will not move from pretender to contender until those issues are addressed and I don't know how its possible with the pay structure he has established.

 

[Jerkbait]

Yes, I read your post, but wasn't responding to it. I was responding to the question about how Leafs can move on without them.

Well not that hard. I'd let both walk especially ceci. If berries wants big time $$$$ which is almsot a guarantee he goes too. I'd push for Alex P via free agency. Justin shikt ad a good 3/4 is available. One of the wingers AJ or Kapanen has to go for d help( solid 4/5 stay at home type) . Unless someone really wants nylander and coughs up a top 2....

 

[Fogelhund]

Well not that hard. I'd let both walk especially ceci. If berries wants big time $$$$ which is almsot a guarantee he goes too. I'd push for Alex P via free agency. Justin shikt ad a good 3/4 is available. One of the wingers AJ or Kapanen has to go for d help( solid 4/5 stay at home type) . Unless someone really wants nylander and coughs up a top 2....

Unless the cap goes up a great deal, which is doubtful given the Corvid-19 Circumstances, the only way to sign Alex P, should the unlikely event that he makes it to UFA come to fruition, will be to move Marner.

 

[Fogelhund]

I agree with you. I was against adding either of those guys this year and I'm certainly not advocating bringing them back.

But the question remains: who plays defense for them next year.

For the last four off-seasons, the Leafs biggest weaknesses have been they are way too soft and way too poor defensively and Dubas continues to ignore them.

The team will not move from pretender to contender until those issues are addressed and I don't know how its possible with the pay structure he has established.

The first question will be... what is the salary cap? Until we know the answer to that one, it's pretty hard to play Manager until then.

Change is necessary, that much is certain. Noting, Dubas added Clifford so far last year, and they are allegedly working on an extension... frankly I think he'll cost more than you should pay a 4th line, but that's the reality.

Most Leaf fans hate the idea of trading Rielly, and I'm a fan of his, but if St. Louis does resign Pietrangelo, I'd call about a swap of Rielly for Parayko as a basis. (I'm not here to argue about value one way or the other, just stating it as a basis) St. Louis's Left side won't be very strong next year, so they theoretically could look at a move... and yes, I know that Parayko and Pietrangelo have played together successfully.

As UFA, I'd look at Hamonic or Tanev, recognizing their limitations and warts, but they are really the only two UFA that fit the bill. Hamonic probably stays out West, and Vancouver would be stupid to let Hughes successful partner go... but that's about where the list is right now.

I'd love Weegar (Yes Florida fans, I know you don't want to move him), or Manson (Yes Ducks fans, I know you don't want to move him)... The pickings on D are slim.

 

[LeonDraisaitl]

Nobody voted jones in the top 3. In fact he didnt make the TSN list of 50 best players either . He didnt get enough ( if any ) votes to even get a mention.

Leafs would not trade marner of jones . End of story. They may trade nylander though.
Its extremely hard to predict what marner would fetch because teams dont trade 22 year old 90 point guys...every situation is different but he is the second best forward on the leafs. If he was the thrid forth or fifth it would be different. For the leafs they need D help. Marner would fetch a package of 2 really good D men or a top 4 guy with a package of pick and or prospect. A signed drew doughty comes to mind. Aaron Ekblad another . As far as kapanen goes no one said he would get a top 4 guy straight up. He would being back a good defensive piece though and this option would be explored before the idea of marner ..leta wake up here...

Jesus Christ guy stop posting paragraphs and go watch some games from Jones this past season so you can stop embarrassing yourself

 

[Jerkbait]

Unless the cap goes up a great deal, which is doubtful given the Corvid-19 Circumstances, the only way to sign Alex P, should the unlikely event that he makes it to UFA come to fruition, will be to move Marner.

Not at all... not even close.. barrie and ceci are gone.. kapanen and or AJ are gone for D help. There is room for alex especially if he takes a slight hometown discount. Also there is always Nylannder . He goes before marner

 

[Fogelhund]

Not at all... not even close.. barrie and ceci are gone.. kapanen and or AJ are gone for D help. There is room for alex especially if he takes a slight hometown discount. Also there is always Nylannder . He goes before marner

What D help did you project to get for Kap and AJ? Why would Alex P take a "Slight Hometown Discount", and what exactly do you think that "discount" means in terms of dollars?

Did you sign Dermott? To how much? Mikeheyev? How Much? Spezza? Clifford? Gauthier? By my math... signing these guys, and a 22 man roster, with the cap at $81.5 million... trading AJ and Kerfoot, and adding nobody to the roster, we have $1.291 Mil left. If you don't sign these guys, who are their replacements? What did they cost?

I doubt you've actually done the math on this.

 

[rent free]

So who plays defense for them next year?

It's easily the biggest weakness on the team and the plan is to do what, plug in two raw rookies on the blueline next year?

since you seem like a Nostradamus on leaf-related topics, how about you come with a defense for them next season?

 

[Jerkbait]

What D help did you project to get for Kap and AJ? Why would Alex P take a "Slight Hometown Discount", and what exactly do you think that "discount" means in terms of dollars?

Did you sign Dermott? To how much? Mikeheyev? How Much? Spezza? Clifford? Gauthier? By my math... signing these guys, and a 22 man roster, with the cap at $81.5 million... trading AJ and Kerfoot, and adding nobody to the roster, we have $1.291 Mil left. If you don't sign these guys, who are their replacements? What did they cost?

I doubt you've actually done the math on this.

All secondary assets and needs. D is the key m spezza can walk . Kerforr as well of needed. There is plenty of room for a respectable contract for alex. Home town discounts can vary.. maybe he gives up 500k ?? It's been done. Your problem is you are not prioritizing. Leafs have more depth at forward. Both AJ pr Kapanen would fetch a solid D for same salary. One needs to go...and probably will. Its like..you buy the car before the winter tires...pretty simple

 

[Fogelhund]

All secondary assets and needs. D is the key m spezza can walk . Kerforr as well of needed. There is plenty of room for a respectable contract for alex. Home town discounts can vary.. maybe he gives up 500k ?? It's been done. Your problem is you are not prioritizing. Leafs have more depth at forward. Both AJ pr Kapanen would fetch a solid D for same salary. One needs to go...and probably will. Its like..you buy the car before the winter tires...pretty simple

So, you've done no math, and answered none of my questions? What you've suggested is pure fantasy land material, until there are actual numbers, and names to a roster... names to trades. The $ aren't there for Pietrangelo... show me the numbers to prove otherwise.

 

[Jerkbait]

Jesus Christ guy stop posting paragraphs and go watch some games from Jones this past season so you can stop embarrassing yourself

Give it up... watched plenty of games from Jones and I have to agree with Hockey news and TSN. Yes he had an off year but he isnt a worth marner by any stretch. Heck he isnt even the best d on his team. Could he rebound ? Maybe he still young. But he ain't making the top 10 D list anytime soon

 

[FerrisRox]

since you seem like a Nostradamus on leaf-related topics, how about you come with a defense for them next season?

Nostradamus like?

Huh?

I have no idea what their defence will be like. My concern is they will end up plugging two raw rookies in there and hope for the best.

 

[UltimateBenningBro]

Those 2 raw rookies have more potential than almost any other teams' young D. We're good.

 

[Fogelhund]

Those 2 raw rookies have more potential than almost any other teams' young D. We're good.

It would be a surprise is Liljegren is on the opening night roster... he probably still has some seasoning to do.

 

[Atomos2]

Ekblad would be one of those players. You save like $3M in cap space and top pairing RHD, especially young ones, are a HUGE demand across the NHL.

The Leafs obviously need to make a change and get an actual NHL level D. How do you expect to get that without trading any of your good players?

How many teams are looking to trade their top pairing D right now? You’ll have to add a premium to get a team to give one of them up. Florida would have the worst D in the league if this trade went down.

You go for depth duh. You don't trade one of your franchise players for a lesser player in a slightly more important position when odds are it makes your team worse and not better.

You honestly think trading Ekblad for Marner is gonna sure up the Leafs defense? Florida was abysmal defensively. Unless it gurantees a dramatic swing on their defense, which it doesn't do, why the hell would we do this.

Rielly - Ekblad
Muzzin - Holl
Dermott - Sandin(on his off-wing or Liljegren)

....you think a defense like that warrants giving up a franchise player? Would anyone in their right mind give up a 90+ point franchise winger like Marner to get that defense? Come on, give me a break.

 

[nbwingsfan]

You go for depth duh. You don't trade one of your franchise players for a lesser player in a slightly more important position when odds are it makes your team worse and not better.

You honestly think trading Ekblad for Marner is gonna sure up the Leafs defense? Florida was abysmal defensively. Unless it gurantees a dramatic swing on their defense, which it doesn't do, why the hell would we do this.

Rielly - Ekblad
Muzzin - Holl
Dermott - Sandin(on his off-wing or Liljegren)

....you think a defense like that warrants giving up a franchise player? Would anyone in their right mind give up a 90+ point franchise winger like Marner to get that defense? Come on, give me a break.

Would you trade your 90+ winger for a to pairing D? Yes you should.

That’s the only way you’re going to afford an NHL level defense is by trading away one of your big money guys.

How exactly do you see them fixing their D with the cap space they currently have ?

 

[Jerkbait]

So, you've done no math, and answered none of my questions? What you've suggested is pure fantasy land material, until there are actual numbers, and names to a roster... names to trades. The $ aren't there for Pietrangelo... show me the numbers to prove otherwise.

Your questions are silly. We dont know the exact salary cap...up or down...but it really doesnt matter that much. We know what Barrie made last year and ceci...we know what Barrie will ask for . We know kapanen and AJ contracts. Do you really need me to do simple math for you???? Alex will be in the range of 9 to 11 mil per year .. that's pretty safe . So what do you need me to tell you ???? You need 10 mil to sign him. Barrie gone . Ceci gone..perhaps spezza or kerfoot. Kapanen or Aj goes even for another d man with similar salary. I'd even inquire about justin Shultz of he is interested via free agency...like it inst that complicated...

 

[Atomos2]

Would you trade your 90+ winger for a to pairing D? Yes you should.

That’s the only way you’re going to afford an NHL level defense is by trading away one of your big money guys.

How exactly do you see them fixing their D with the cap space they currently have ?

Did you actually see the d corp I just put up? Instead of going by some exaggerated fantasy of a top pairing D solving all of the teams defensive woes, take a look at what's actually going to be on the ice and decide if that's worth getting rid of one of the best offensive wingers in the game. Because I don't see it.

Once again, that's:

Rielly-Ekblad
Muzzin-Holl
Dermott/Sandin - Dermott/Liljegren/Sandin

No thanks, I'd rather hold onto Marner

Now as for fixing the D. That can come from signing or trading for solid middle to bottom d that can fill out your roster and provide solid defense for depth desirable pieces like Kapanen or Johnson. It might not be amazing but it could be solid if they play by committee. You don't have to swing for the fences. That's how you can drastically lose value a la Hall for Larsson. We've already seen a representation of that in Kadri for Barrie.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Did you actually see the d corp I just put up? Instead of going by some exaggerated fantasy of a top pairing D solving all of the teams defensive woes, take a look at what's actually going to be on the ice and decide if that's worth getting rid of one of the best offensive wingers in the game. Because I don't see it.

Once again, that's:

Rielly-Ekblad
Muzzin-Holl
Dermott/Sandin - Dermott/Liljegren/Sandin

No thanks, I'd rather hold onto Marner

Now as for fixing the D. That can come from signing or trading for solid middle to bottom d that can fill out your roster and provide solid defense for depth desirable pieces like Kapanen or Johnson. It might not be amazing but it could be solid if they play by committee. You don't have to swing for the fences. That's how you can drastically lose value a la Hall for Larsson. We've already seen a representation of that in Kadri for Barrie.

so wait you think trading Kapanen for some bottom pairing D is going to solve your D issues but trading Marner for vastly better D won’t?

You’re right the D you listed above is no good, but you know what’s even worse?:

Rielly- Holl
Muzzin- Dermott
Sandin- Liljegren
Marincin

That’s bottom 3 in the entire league. You guys were already a bubble team with a better D this season, it could get ugly next season.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

so wait you think trading Kapanen for some bottom pairing D is going to solve your D issues but trading Marner for vastly better D won’t?

You’re right the D you listed above is no good, but you know what’s even worse?:

Rielly- Holl
Muzzin- Dermott
Sandin- Liljegren
Marincin

That’s bottom 3 in the entire league. You guys were already a bubble team with a better D this season, it could get ugly next season.

Some Leaf fans:

 

[Fogelhund]

Your questions are silly. We dont know the exact salary cap...up or down...but it really doesnt matter that much. We know what Barrie made last year and ceci...we know what Barrie will ask for . We know kapanen and AJ contracts. Do you really need me to do simple math for you???? Alex will be in the range of 9 to 11 mil per year .. that's pretty safe . So what do you need me to tell you ???? You need 10 mil to sign him. Barrie gone . Ceci gone..perhaps spezza or kerfoot. Kapanen or Aj goes even for another d man with similar salary. I'd even inquire about justin Shultz of he is interested via free agency...like it inst that complicated...

So let me summarize for you.

You believe what the salary cap is, doesn't matter much to whom we can sign, or what we can do?

I've done the "simple" math, but evidently, you have not. I'll put Alex at 10 mil, your middle ground, just for fun... then you can explain to me, exactly how you make this work... how about that? Nearly 9 million over the cap. The lines people are on, is irrelevant for this discussion.

and Justin Schultz? Do we really need more weak defensive D men?

ROSTER SIZE	SALARY CAP	CAP HIT	OVERAGES	BONUSES	CAP SPACE
23	$81,500,000	$90,208,533	$0	$0	-$8,708,533

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Delete Signed Player

Buyout

Add to Trade

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Roster

Left Wing	Centre	Right Wing
Hyman, Zach $2,250,000 LW M-NTC UFA - 1	Matthews, Auston $11,634,000 C UFA - 4	Marner, Mitchell $10,893,000 RW UFA - 5
Engvall, Pierre $1,250,000 LW, RW RFA - 2	Tavares, John $11,000,000 C NMC UFA - 5	Kapanen, Kasperi $3,200,000 RW RFA - 2
Clifford, Kyle $1,600,000 LW UFA	Nylander, William $6,962,366 RW, LW UFA - 4	Mikheyev, Ilya $2,000,000 LW, RW RFA
Gauthier, Frédérik $750,000 C RFA	Spezza, Jason $1,000,000 C, RW UFA	Korshkov, Yegor $925,000 RW RFA - 1
Barabanov, Alexander $925,000

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Left Defense	Right Defense	Goaltender
Rielly, Morgan $5,000,000 D M-NTC UFA - 2	Pietrangelo, Alex $10,000,000 D	Andersen, Frederik $5,000,000 G M-NTC UFA - 1
Muzzin, Jake $5,625,000 D NMC UFA - 4	Holl, Justin $2,000,000 D M-NTC UFA - 3	Campbell, Jack $1,650,000 G UFA - 2
Sandin, Rasmus $894,167 D RFA - 2	Marincin, Martin $700,000 D UFA - 1
Dermott, Travis $3,000,000 D RFA	Rosén, Calle $750,000 D UFA - 1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Ryan Michaels]

If the Leafs want Ekblad then they have to out bid every other team out there. Florida is not trading him for a single more expensive asset when they have to cut budget either. It will be a package. You want Florida to listen then it starts here

AJ
KK
one of Lilj or Dermott
Robertson.

Yes all 4 and that is just the starting point both sides will add/adjust to make salary and picks fit. Even that is on the low end of what he is worth but that is what Florida would want to break up the core and cut payroll. I know Leaf fans are going to say its too much and Panther fans are going to say not enough but its the starting point not finishing point.

So you want that collection of middling assets instead of Marner? You drive a hard bargain.

 

[Jerkbait]

So let me summarize for you.

You believe what the salary cap is, doesn't matter much to whom we can sign, or what we can do?

I've done the "simple" math, but evidently, you have not. I'll put Alex at 10 mil, your middle ground, just for fun... then you can explain to me, exactly how you make this work... how about that? Nearly 9 million over the cap. The lines people are on, is irrelevant for this discussion.

and Justin Schultz? Do we really need more weak defensive D men?

ROSTER SIZE	SALARY CAP	CAP HIT	OVERAGES	BONUSES	CAP SPACE
23	$81,500,000	$90,208,533	$0	$0	-$8,708,533

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Delete Signed Player

Buyout

Add to Trade

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Roster

Left Wing	Centre	Right Wing
Hyman, Zach $2,250,000 LW M-NTC UFA - 1	Matthews, Auston $11,634,000 C UFA - 4	Marner, Mitchell $10,893,000 RW UFA - 5
Engvall, Pierre $1,250,000 LW, RW RFA - 2	Tavares, John $11,000,000 C NMC UFA - 5	Kapanen, Kasperi $3,200,000 RW RFA - 2
Clifford, Kyle $1,600,000 LW UFA	Nylander, William $6,962,366 RW, LW UFA - 4	Mikheyev, Ilya $2,000,000 LW, RW RFA
Gauthier, Frédérik $750,000 C RFA	Spezza, Jason $1,000,000 C, RW UFA	Korshkov, Yegor $925,000 RW RFA - 1
Barabanov, Alexander $925,000

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Left Defense	Right Defense	Goaltender
Rielly, Morgan $5,000,000 D M-NTC UFA - 2	Pietrangelo, Alex $10,000,000 D	Andersen, Frederik $5,000,000 G M-NTC UFA - 1
Muzzin, Jake $5,625,000 D NMC UFA - 4	Holl, Justin $2,000,000 D M-NTC UFA - 3	Campbell, Jack $1,650,000 G UFA - 2
Sandin, Rasmus $894,167 D RFA - 2	Marincin, Martin $700,000 D UFA - 1
Dermott, Travis $3,000,000 D RFA	Rosén, Calle $750,000 D UFA - 1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Shultz would be the 3rd or 4th best D on the leafs. Soild all round . Can play PP and PK. Dont think your understanding how it works.. you trade.spull from your strengths which is forward. Get rid of dead weight which they will with ceci. Barrie also off the books. Kerfoot gone with what is that a 5 mil cap hit .. how much have you just saved ? You dont win cups by trading your second best forward. It just doesn't happen. Penguins never traded Malkin did they ??? In fact they only traded their 3rd or 4th best forward in Kessel. More for cap issues but same concept. You dont win by trading marner ..duh.....so move down the list....nylander maybe...more prone to trading kapanen or AJ for a 4/5 D man. Sign alex for 10 ish
..

Alex P Reilly
Muzzin Schultz top 4... keep Holl and mix it from there . If demott wants to stay great if not bye...

Out Barrie ceci kerfoot one of kap or AJ..... spezza.... marican gone
..chocie to keep Holl or demott.. gets it's done.. so much easier to plug and bottom 6 forward than a D spot.. so of that means you have to let guys walk or trsee for futures ..yoi do it .. win now mode

 

[Fogelhund]

Shultz would be the 3rd or 4th best D on the leafs. Soild all round . Can play PP and PK. Dont think your understanding how it works.. you trade.spull from your strengths which is forward. Get rid of dead weight which they will with ceci. Barrie also off the books. Kerfoot gone with what is that a 5 mil cap hit .. how much have you just saved ? You dont win cups by trading your second best forward. It just doesn't happen. Penguins never traded Malkin did they ??? In fact they only traded their 3rd or 4th best forward in Kessel. More for cap issues but same concept. You dont win by trading marner ..duh.....so move down the list....nylander maybe...more prone to trading kapanen or AJ for a 4/5 D man. Sign alex for 10 ish
..

Alex P Reilly
Muzzin Schultz top 4... keep Holl and mix it from there . If demott wants to stay great if not bye...

Out Barrie ceci kerfoot one of kap or AJ..... spezza.... marican gone
..chocie to keep Holl or demott.. gets it's done.. so much easier to plug and bottom 6 forward than a D spot.. so of that means you have to let guys walk or trsee for futures ..yoi do it .. win now mode

It's clear that you haven't read in detail what I've posted, or shown the abiltiy do math, or just choose not to. I've laid the numbers out in front of you pretty clearly, yet you choose to ignore them. It's pretty clear that Kerfoot, Barrie, Ceci, AJ are gone from the roster... it just takes reading, or the ability to choose to read. You keep repeating the same thing, while ignoring salaries and the cap, and what I've posted.

Schultz you claim is "soild all round"... sic.. I mean LOL... But even if you meant solid, he wasn't... he's been terrible for the last two years. You claim he can play the PK... he's never played the PK for the Penguins. He has the sixth most ES time for the Penguins, and was their most sheltered D man, in terms of zone starts. You claim I have no idea how this works, and then you talk about a player, clearly showing you know nothing about him. He's made $5.5 mil the last contract, and you've not indicated what you want to pay this guy... which is how it works... Based on your team, you are already $9 million over the cap, and you want to sign Schultz too... I mean this stuff is laughable.

So maybe address the actual math, the actual roster, the actual moves indicated, or if it's beyond your depth, we will just both move on. Go back to the roster I've posted, challenge it, and tell me how it gets under the cap.

 

[Atomos2]

so wait you think trading Kapanen for some bottom pairing D is going to solve your D issues but trading Marner for vastly better D won’t?

You’re right the D you listed above is no good, but you know what’s even worse?:

Rielly- Holl
Muzzin- Dermott
Sandin- Liljegren
Marincin

That’s bottom 3 in the entire league. You guys were already a bubble team with a better D this season, it could get ugly next season.

Again, just to be clear, since your comprehension of this seems to be lacking in this discussion, Leafs need a few solid defenecmen to round out their d corp NOT one top pairing d that MAY fix one area but does little to improve the rest. Trading Kapanen and Johnsson for those d pieces increases the value of the depth defencemen we can get and strengthens the areas of the d corp that need it. It's not rocket science, plenty of reporters have echoed the same damn thing.

Some Leaf fans:

View attachment 341095

Ugh...can't believe I'm responding to this post. Anyway, please read above. Thanks pal