First 8 seasons: Jagr vs Crosby

[livewell68]

Crosby for the following reasons.

1 Hart. finishes of 1st, 2nd, 3rd.
1 Richard
2 Lindsays. Also a 3 time finalist.
1 Art Ross, Scoring finishes of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 6th
2 First team AS selections at center. Which is a much deeper position than a right winger.
1 playoff scoring title with 27 points, more than Jagr has every scored in the playoffs and also another huge 31 point playoff run.

This is all even with Crosby's injury history. That is the only reason Crosby is not already considered better than Jagr.

Crosby's resume looks nice and all but I see you omitted one big element.... Jagr's resume in his first 8 seasons.

Jagr scored 5 Art Ross trophies, in total. Crosby has a "long" way to go before reaching Jagr's level.

Let Crosby surpass Ovechkin and Malkin first before we start talking about him being better than Jagr.

In regards to the center position being deeper.... go look at Jagr's competition at Right Wing in his era.... Bure, Selanne, Leclair, Bondra.

Since this is the History section and posters on here have a lot more common sense than to believe this BS, I will post this just for fun.

First....

Haha Crosby is better than Yzerman. That's a laughable claim. Crosby is better than every center in the 3rd tier and is better than at least 2 in the second tier (Clarke is better than Crosby, haha good joke). I wouldn't even say that Messier is better that Crosby. Crosby isn't on Gretzky's level, but he's above where you put him

Second....

I agree, I view them basically the same (it depends on what mood I'm in). I think Messier and Crosby are 3 and 4 for the top centers ever. Crosby could pass him if he stays healthy.

Could luck keeping your credibility in this section with your ignorance and pure disregard to the history of the game.

 

[revolverjgw]

Jagr, he had the health. Crosby would have taken this easily if he hadn't been hurt.

 

[Beau Knows]

Crosby has better resume than Malkin so he does not have to pass him.

Not to mention the fact that he is just clearly a better player than Malkin.

 

[livewell68]

Can you please use the correct scoring levels for the post-lockout seasons? dropyourgloves as well as hockeyreference includes shootout goals in leaguewide scoring averages since 05-06. The correct numbers can be found at: http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_GoalsPerGame.php

2005-06 6.050
2006-07 5.757
2007-08 5.439
2008-09 5.695
2009-10 5.530
2010-11 5.464
2011-12 5.319
2012-13 5.306

Average is 5.57 GPG, .8 less than the average for Jagr's first 8 seasons.

Prove to me that "drop your gloves" has incorrect stats.

 

[livewell68]

Crosby has better resume than Malkin so he does not have to pass him.

Malkin looks at his 2 Art Ross trophies, 1 Calder, 1 Conn Smythe and says to himself : "darn, I have awards that Crosby has never won and I have 1 more Art Ross than him but yet somehow I'm not considered his equal."

 

[livewell68]

Not to mention the fact that he is just clearly a better player than Malkin.

Well Malkin's trophy case says otherwise. So does Malkin's ability to play big in big games.

Crosby scored 3 Pts in 7 games in the Stanley Cup finals when the Penguins won the Cup. Malkin in contrast scored 8 Pts in 7 games and won the Conn Smythe.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Prove to me that "drop your gloves" has incorrect stats.

Take any season from 05-06 on, add up every team's Goals For, subtract shootout wins, divide by 1230. Compare result with dropyourgloves vs. the link I provided.

 

[livewell68]

Take any season from 05-06 on, add up every team's Goals For, subtract shootout wins, divide by 1230. Compare result with dropyourgloves vs. the link I provided.

The shootout wins only account for win-loss stats, it has nothing to do with goals scored.

 

[livewell68]

Jagr, he had the health. Crosby would have taken this easily if he hadn't been hurt.

Yet Jagr's first 8 seasons aren't even his best stretch of hockey. Jagr's 9th, 10th and 11th seasons are levels that Crosby has yet to reach but that is cause for a different debate.

 

[dustybreaks]

Well Malkin's trophy case says otherwise. So does Malkin's ability to play big in big games.

Crosby scored 3 Pts in 7 games in the Stanley Cup finals when the Penguins won the Cup. Malkin in contrast scored 8 Pts in 7 games and won the Conn Smythe.

The players think otherwise.

Look at the poll they did asking five players from each team who was the best player in the NHL.

 

[livewell68]

The players think otherwise.

Look at the poll they did asking five players from each team who was the best player in the NHL.

You don't think players go to NHLPA and NHL marketing meetings? You don't think they care about the marketing value of the league?

Outside of the hockey world, Crosby is a more recognized figure than Malkin is. Crosby is better looking, better spoken and more accessible. If they had picked Malkin as the best player (a poll which is just a poll out of a 1000 similar polls) it would not have the same marketing effect.

The NHL and the NHLPA have a lot invested in Crosby. Imagine if they were to admit to the rest of the world that expectations have not met the hype, that would have a huge negative effect on their marketing brand.

You think players are going to be honest? Half the time they get fined for "actually" speaking their minds. You think they are going to say that Crosby is a whiny, self entitled primadona?

I mean the last 2 playoffs against the Flyers and Bruins have shown Crosby fold under pressure and whine and pull off cheap shots but then again the NHL has a damage control contingency plan in place and along with their PR firm and media outlets have brushed those incidents under the rug and moved on by throwing the "Crosby is the best player on the planet" BS in our faces again.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The shootout wins only account for win-loss stats, it has nothing to do with goals scored.

Standings Page:
http://espn.go.com/nhl/standings/_/year/2013/seasontype/2/group/2

Pittsburgh has 165 goals

Team Leaders in Scoring:
http://espn.go.com/nhl/statistics/team/_/stat/scoring/year/2013/seasontype/2

Pittsburgh is listed at 162 goals.

The Penguins had 3 SO wins last year, I wonder where the discrepancy comes from.

 

[livewell68]

Standings Page:
http://espn.go.com/nhl/standings/_/year/2013/seasontype/2/group/2

Pittsburgh has 165 goals

Team Leaders in Scoring:
http://espn.go.com/nhl/statistics/team/_/stat/scoring/year/2013/seasontype/2

Pittsburgh is listed at 162 goals.

The Penguins had 3 SO wins last year, I wonder where the discrepancy comes from.

Actually NHL.com has the Penguins listed at 162 goals for not 165.

I go by NHL.com stats and "drop your gloves" uses the NHL.com stats to compile their data.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Actually NHL.com has the Penguins listed at 162 goals for not 165.

I go by NHL.com stats and "drop your gloves" uses the NHL.com stats to compile their data.

NHL.com has the same discrepancy. GF on the standings page is higher than when the teams are listed by GF. Drop your gloves uses the incorrect stats from the standings page.

 

[livewell68]

NHL.com has the same discrepancy. GF on the standings page is higher than when the teams are listed by GF. Drop your gloves uses the incorrect stats from the standings page.

... because by saying it uses incorrect stats is trying to prove your argument about Crosby to be correct.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

... because by saying it uses incorrect stats is trying to prove your argument about Crosby to be correct.

In the same way you are using fabricated stats to "show" Jagr's superiority?

 

[dustybreaks]

You don't think players go to NHLPA and NHL marketing meetings? You don't think they care about the marketing value of the league?

Outside of the hockey world, Crosby is a more recognized figure than Malkin is. Crosby is better looking, better spoken and more accessible. If they had picked Malkin as the best player (a poll which is just a poll out of a 1000 similar polls) it would not have the same marketing effect.

The NHL and the NHLPA have a lot invested in Crosby. Imagine if they were to admit to the rest of the world that expectations have not met the hype, that would have a huge negative effect on their marketing brand.

You think players are going to be honest? Half the time they get fined for "actually" speaking their minds. You think they are going to say that Crosby is a whiny, self entitled primadona?

I mean the last 2 playoffs against the Flyers and Bruins have shown Crosby fold under pressure and whine and pull of cheap shots but then again the NHL has a damage control contingency plan in place and along with their PR firm and media outlets have brushed those incidents under the rug and moved on by throwing the "Crosby is the best player on the planet" BS in our faces again.

come on guy, you really cant be serious.

now you just throwing sht at the wall and hoping it sticks.

 

[livewell68]

In the same way you are using fabricated stats to "show" Jagr's superiority?

None of my stats are fabricated. I took the stats straight from NHL.com, if you have an issue with their stats, take it up with their site administrators. The reason why Jagr is superior is not because the stats are fabricated but simply because Jagr is superior.

 

[Sentinel]

This is the first time I agree with Livewell. He is off in the Feds-Jagr debate, but here he is right: Crosby has some climbing to do, and it's highly unlikely that he will ever surpass Jagr.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I look at the Czech roster and I look at the Canadian roster and I see a big difference. I see a Canadian team that usual piles on the points in the round robin (in turn padding the roster's scoring stats) while the Czechs (because outside a few good players and Jagr (offense strictly) don't have the fire power to win games 8-0, rather rely on sound team defense to grind out wins.

How ironic that it's about the same difference in team and line mates that both guys had for their club teams over their 1st 8 seasons as well.

Jagr was eased into a great situation and took until his 3rd season to get near 100 points (94 in his 3rd and 99 in his 4th) yet Sid was a 100 point scorer right out of the gate and well beyond that of his team mates.

Jagr has been by far more valuable to his teams at the Olympics (1998, 2002 and 2006 especially) than Crosby has been to his in his lone Olympic venture. Crosby scores the Golden Goal and he is suddenly a god all the while ignoring how poor his play was in that tournament including that very same Gold medal game, after all it was Towes that carried that Canadian team.

Well which one is it, you seem to want to have it both ways here, Jagr wasn't scoring as well because his teams weren't as good but yet he was more valuable to his team (because in part of how bad they were)?

Man talk about putting yourself in a corner of logic there.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Yet Jagr's first 8 seasons aren't even his best stretch of hockey. Jagr's 9th, 10th and 11th seasons are levels that Crosby has yet to reach but that is cause for a different debate.

what is the actual title of this thread?

Jagr's 9,10,11 heck 20th season don't matter in this direct first 8 season comp, we all know what Jagr has done, either we do apples to apples comp or just wait 15 years until Sid is done right?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Well Malkin's trophy case says otherwise. So does Malkin's ability to play big in big games.

Crosby scored 3 Pts in 7 games in the Stanley Cup finals when the Penguins won the Cup. Malkin in contrast scored 8 Pts in 7 games and won the Conn Smythe.

Once again you are being selective here, Malkin loaded up with Dats out and Detroit had Zetts on Sid, whom Detroit considered the greater threat. When Dats came back others picked up the slack not Malkin.

Sid BTW has more goals, assists and points than Malkin does in the playoffs overall and is a plus 16 to Malkin's plus 2.

 

[livewell68]

what is the actual title of this thread?

Jagr's 9,10,11 heck 20th season don't matter in this direct first 8 season comp, we all know what Jagr has done, either we do apples to apples comp or just wait 15 years until Sid is done right?

In which case seasons 5, 6, 7 and 8 go to Jagr anyhow.

 

[livewell68]

How ironic that it's about the same difference in team and line mates that both guys had for their club teams over their 1st 8 seasons as well.

Jagr was eased into a great situation and took until his 3rd season to get near 100 points (94 in his 3rd and 99 in his 4th) yet Sid was a 100 point scorer right out of the gate and well beyond that of his team mates.



Well which one is it, you seem to want to have it both ways here, Jagr wasn't scoring as well because his teams weren't as good but yet he was more valuable to his team (because in part of how bad they were)?

Man talk about putting yourself in a corner of logic there.

This has been touched upon before. Jagr was eased into a better "team success" situation but his individual success was being held back because of this very same situation. As history would show, Jagr thrived in situations where he was the man. So it is not out of the realm of possibility to think that Jagr wouldn't have improved on his numbers in his first 3 seasons if he wasn't given more icetime. Not even Crosby himself could have scored 100 Pts a season if he was playing 8-12 minutes a game on the 3rd and 4th lines. That is basically what Jagr had to work with. Being an 18 year old farm kid who had to defect and arrive to a new country and be faced with culture shock and learning a new language is not the same thing as an 18 year old kid who was prepared for the fame and limelight since his his juniors days.

Jagr was not eased in to the NHL. Jagr had a very rough few years to start in the NHL despite the team success.

 

[Big Phil]

Now I can look at this more closely since the 2013 season is over.

Jagr 581 games 301g-434a-735 points (1.26 PPG)
Crosby 470 games 238g-427a-665 points (1.41 PPG)


Now, scoring was pretty much the same overall during each of their first two years. It really isn't something to analyze that much. So their raw numbers are comparable to look at.

The difference being is that Jagr is 3rd in scoring behing a 1990-'98 Gretzky and Oates. Crosby is 3rd in scoring during his time to Ovechkin and Thornton. I think you can take Thornton and Oates and make it more or less a wash, but then you have to ask if it is harder to outscore a 1990-'98 Gretzky or Ovechkin in his first 8 years. Tough question, might have to lean with the Great One here. So that may help Jagr.

However in the postseason Crosby has the edge. Jagr has the two Cups, but he was a rookie and a sophomore and he was far down the pecking order in 1991, but higher in 1992. Crosby was the man in 2008, and pretty near close in 2009 as well. So you have to give Crosby the edge in the postseason. These were still Mario's Penguins, but they were more or less Crosby's team.

PPG is an interesting one, because Crosby beats Jagr in this category. Jagr has two Art Rosses, Crosby one. Crosby has a Hart, while Jagr doesn't yet despite a great voting record.

We all saw another one of Crosby's dominant seasons where he tore up the league only to relinquish ANOTHER Art Ross at the hands of injuries. This is the 3rd time he had a lead in the scoring race when he got injured. In a just world Crosby has 4 Art Ross trophies right now. So the idea of who is better on a per game basis is not up for debate because it is Crosby in my mind. From an overall perspective of what they actually DID on the ice it is a lot closer.

Jagr has the best season either one had (1996) but Crosby was a superstar right away while it took Jagr 3-4 years. That favours Crosby. I think right now if you throw in the two-way play and other intangibles you have to give the slight nod to Crosby here in their first 8 years.

The only issue is that Jagr exploded after 1998 and had three more spectacular seasons in a row before a cooling period. I don't think we've seen Crosby have as good of a season as Jagr in 1999. Nor have we seen him win the scoring title by playing 25% less of the games. Close, but he didn't do it in 2013, while Jagr did in 2000.

But to just judge their first 8 years, I think it's Crosby now.