First 8 seasons: Jagr vs Crosby

[Corto]

Why are people even comparing this?

You're comparing a kid who was marketed as the next great thing, put into every situation to succeed, to a kid who didn't know any English and came to America completely under the radar.

Sure, Crosby has the upper hand on Jagr in the first 8 years.
So does Ovechkin. So does Malkin. Stamkos will too, probably.
Jagr came into the league in very different circumstances compared to those guys.

Thing is, after that, Jagr separates from the pack in a way that neither of those players has managed so far.
He dominated the game unlike anyone not named Mario or Wayne in the last 35 years.
People on HF seem to forget, he was not only big and strong, but also fast and skilled. And contrary to his Washington heritage and Milbury ramblings, outside of those 3 years, he was always a great leader and a character guy. Nor was he a slouch defensively, even today, in his old days. But he doesn't hit and scores so much etc., so he must not be playing D - the HF mantra.

People's memory is apparently very short.

 

[Plural]

Haha 2nd place finishes eh.
Care to expand the names that go with those first and second place finishers for each player

I'll do Jagr's for ya, you can counter with Crosby's k

90/91 Gretz 163, Hull 131
91/92 Lemieux 131, Stevens 123
92/93 Lemieux 160, Lafountaine 148
93/94 Gretzky 130, Fedorov 120
95 Jagr 70, Lindros 70
95/96 Lemieux 161, Jagr 149
96/97 Lemeiux 122, Selanne 109
97/98 Jagr 102, Forsberg 91

Looking forward to Crosby's list

You ARE the one that's so big on context after all

Holy damn. Kind of makes you miss the 90's. Great decade for forwards.

 

[daver]

I thought of starting this thread because I've seen many people make assumptions on how Crosby has Jagr beat at this point in both their careers and how it's not even close. I have a need to show that it was a lot closer than what most people believe.

Crosby so far including this season has played 8 seasons in the NHL. In 8 seasons, Crosby has 238 goals, 427 assists for 665 Pts in 470 games. That is a PPG of 1.41. Overall he has 1 Hart, 1 Art Ross, 1 Pearson and 1 Rocket Richard. By season his overall scoring finishes are 6, 1, 31, 3, 3, 32, 177, 1st so far this year.

Now let's look at Jagr. In his first 8 seasons, Jagr played 581 games. In that time span he had 301 goals, 434 assists for 735 Pts for a PPG of 1.26. He had 2 Art Ross trophies and 2 top 2 Hart finishes (1 4th place Hart finish). By season, his overall scoring finishes are 78, 58, 29, 9, 1, 2, 5, 1.

The numbers are a lot closer than some believe as you see. Jagr also has the slow start all things considered; he was a rookie playing on a stacked team and getting limited ice time in his first 2 seasons in the NHL and he had to learn a new language. By Jagr's 4th season, he really closes the gap. He would play in 350 games in those 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th seasons combined. He would score 208 goals, add 307 assists and collect a total of 515 Pts. In that time span between his 4th to 8th seasons he averaged a PPG of 1.47.

Does Crosby really hold that big advantage that everyone seems to be talking about?

On a side note, despite Jagr's slow start to establish himself as a star, in his first full 11 seasons in the NHL (all with Pittsburgh mind you), he scored 1079 Pts in 806 games. That is a PPG of 1.34. Crosby's PPG of 1.41 is only 0.07 higher than Jagr's was in his first 11 seasons despite Jagr playing in 336 more games (which is a full 4 seasons worth of games more).

Yes.

Crosby destroys him in his first four years then keeps it close despite his injuries in the next four years.

Who cares if he didn't play that much to start. Maybe he wasn't ready. Maybe he wasn't mature enough to handle the spotlight? It doesn't matter.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Haha 2nd place finishes eh.
Care to expand the names that go with those first and second place finishers for each player

Look if you have a problem with the % of 2nd place finish system bring it up with Lord as that's where I got it from.

It's just one of many ways to compare different guys from different eras.

I'll do Jagr's for ya, you can counter with Crosby's k

90/91 Gretz 163, Hull 131
91/92 Lemieux 131, Stevens 123
92/93 Lemieux 160, Lafountaine 148
93/94 Gretzky 130, Fedorov 120
95 Jagr 70, Lindros 70
95/96 Lemieux 161, Jagr 149
96/97 Lemeiux 122, Selanne 109
97/98 Jagr 102, Forsberg 91

I know it's the Wayne and Mario argument again except Mario shows up 4 times on this list. Seeing that Jagr played on those teams with Mario, it can also be argued that Jagr benefited from Mario's presence too right?

Looking forward to Crosby's list

You ARE the one that's so big on context after all

Yes and you like selective context and that's it.

We already know how you will diminish Sid's list but I will post here,maybe next time we can compare line mates and supporting cast perhaps?

06 Thorton 125, Jagr 123
07 Sid 120, Thorton 114
08 AO 122, Malkin 106
09 Malkin 113, AO 110
10 H Sedin 112, AO/Sid 109
11 D Sedin 104 MSL 99
12 Malkin 109, Stamkos 97
13 not determined yet

Go to town and then we can talk line mates okay.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Why are people even comparing this?

Quite simply because people are always comparing Jagr's entire career to Sid's, since Sid has only played 8 seasons it's an apples to apples comp.

In 15 years we can compare both of their entire careers.

You're comparing a kid who was marketed as the next great thing, put into every situation to succeed, to a kid who didn't know any English and came to America completely under the radar.

First Sid isn't a creation of marketing, he quite simply was an uber prospect who earned rave reviews with his play.

Also Jagr wasn't under the radar, hockey people had him as the best talent skill wise in his draft class. Jagr was alos eased in and the Pens kept a Czech player, Jiri Hrdina, just to ease his transition as well.

Sid was thrust into the spotlight and pressure situations from day one so it's easy to look at things in more than one point of view here.

Sure, Crosby has the upper hand on Jagr in the first 8 years.
So does Ovechkin. So does Malkin. Stamkos will too, probably.
Jagr came into the league in very different circumstances compared to those guys.

Thing is, after that, Jagr separates from the pack in a way that neither of those players has managed so far.
He dominated the game unlike anyone not named Mario or Wayne in the last 35 years.
People on HF seem to forget, he was not only big and strong, but also fast and skilled. And contrary to his Washington heritage and Milbury ramblings, outside of those 3 years, he was always a great leader and a character guy. Nor was he a slouch defensively, even today, in his old days. But he doesn't hit and scores so much etc., so he must not be playing D - the HF mantra.

People's memory is apparently very short.

Obviously we don't know yet how those young guys will stack up to Jagr post his first 8 years but all are on track to possibly do extremely well.

Maybe Jagr wasn't a slouch defensively but he also wasn't the 2 way player Sid has been at his peak either so that's all that's really relevant in that regard.

It's quite telling that no one is bringing up the playoff factor in favor of Jagr yet. The reasoning being quite obvious

 

[Hardyvan123]

Holy damn. Kind of makes you miss the 90's. Great decade for forwards.

Yes quite possibly the best decade for forwards, top end talent ever IMO.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Look if you have a problem with the % of 2nd place finish system bring it up with Lord as that's where I got it from.

It's just one of many ways to compare different guys from different eras.

I have no problem using % of 2nd place finishes provided the context comes with it.
Namely, that the second the bar of those 2nd place finishes is being determined by #99 or #66, it needs to be stated.
It's no different than when someone tried to use 2nd place finishes to show Lidstrom was the same as Bourque offensively. It was a joke.

I know it's the Wayne and Mario argument again except Mario shows up 4 times on this list. Seeing that Jagr played on those teams with Mario, it can also be argued that Jagr benefited from Mario's presence too right?

Yeah...except the 2 years Mario didn't play a single game, Jagr won the Art Ross both times eh but heaven forbid we let facts get in the way of your narrative heh

Yes and you like selective context and that's it.

Naw, you do a much, much better job of using that than I do.

We already know how you will diminish Sid's list but I will post here,maybe next time we can compare line mates and supporting cast perhaps?

06 Thorton 125, Jagr 123
07 Sid 120, Thorton 114
08 AO 122, Malkin 106
09 Malkin 113, AO 110
10 H Sedin 112, AO/Sid 109
11 D Sedin 104 MSL 99
12 Malkin 109, Stamkos 97
13 not determined yet

Go to town and then we can talk line mates okay.

Stop overplaying the linemate card, seriously.
Sid has always had a solid cast around him, he has almost always had Malkin to play with on the PP and no Pen's coach has failed to play them together regularly to provide a spark or when behind, not just late in games but late in periods as well.

And those lists speak for themselves. There's nothing I need to add.

 

[HoldenGatsby]

I think its a little disingenuous to count out line mates in this debate. Although Crosby has had a solid support cast on his team over the last couple years, with Malkin, Neal, Letang and Fleury all playing relatively great hockey at times, the actual players Crosby has played with, especially in the last approx. 110 games hes played beginning from the 2010-2011 season averaging 1.61 ppg during that span, is extremely relevant to the conversation. This is due to the fact Crosby gets most of his points even strength. Now lets consider the talent he plays with, in Pascal Dupuis and Chris Kunitz. This year alone, both were set to put up careers numbers, higher than what they would achieve in an 82 game season, in a mere 48 games. It is hard to argue Jagr has, or would be able to do the same. That is not to say Jagr wasn't the most elite scorer of his era, but is to say he didn't have the ability to make those around him as great as Crosby has.

 

[pdd]

I think its a little disingenuous to count out line mates in this debate. Although Crosby has had a solid support cast on his team over the last couple years, with Malkin, Neal, Letang and Fleury all playing relatively great hockey at times, the actual players Crosby has played with, especially in the last approx. 110 games hes played beginning from the 2010-2011 season averaging 1.61 ppg during that span, is extremely relevant to the conversation. This is due to the fact Crosby gets most of his points even strength. Now lets consider the talent he plays with, in Pascal Dupuis and Chris Kunitz. This year alone, both were set to put up careers numbers, higher than what they would achieve in an 82 game season, in a mere 48 games. It is hard to argue Jagr has, or would be able to do the same. That is not to say Jagr wasn't the most elite scorer of his era, but is to say he didn't have the ability to make those around him as great as Crosby has.

Chris Kunitz has been a first liner his entire career. He played on the first line with McDonald and Selanne for Anaheim's Cup team in his second full season, and he was on that line the year before as a rookie. And aside from when his line with Selanne became the second line due to the emergence of Ryan/Getzlaf/Perry, he's been a first-liner ever since.

This isn't some scrub.

Dupuis is a solid player. When Detroit won the Stanley Cup in 1997, Sergei Fedorov played with Slava Kozlov and Doug Brown. Steve Yzerman played with Tomas Sandstrom and Darren McCarty. Igor Larionov played with Brendan Shanahan and Martin Lapointe. A prime Dupuis is a nice upgrade from a late-career Brown and is probably comparable overall to 1997 McCarty. Probably better than Sandstrom was at the time too.

Dupuis is not a "first-liner" by the standard definition. But he brings the kind of skills to the line with Kunitz and Crosby already there that make the line an even more excellent line. If you swapped Dupuis for a guy like Hemsky, it would make the line worse and none of the players would perform as well. He's the kind of guy you can and will have on a top line if you want to win the Cup. Because if you have enough offensive talent to win the Cup, you're going to spread it over three lines and work some grit and defense in there also.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Chris Kunitz has been a first liner his entire career. He played on the first line with McDonald and Selanne for Anaheim's Cup team in his second full season, and he was on that line the year before as a rookie. And aside from when his line with Selanne became the second line due to the emergence of Ryan/Getzlaf/Perry, he's been a first-liner ever since.

This isn't some scrub.

Dupuis is a solid player. When Detroit won the Stanley Cup in 1997, Sergei Fedorov played with Slava Kozlov and Doug Brown. Steve Yzerman played with Tomas Sandstrom and Darren McCarty. Igor Larionov played with Brendan Shanahan and Martin Lapointe. A prime Dupuis is a nice upgrade from a late-career Brown and is probably comparable overall to 1997 McCarty. Probably better than Sandstrom was at the time too.

Dupuis is not a "first-liner" by the standard definition. But he brings the kind of skills to the line with Kunitz and Crosby already there that make the line an even more excellent line. If you swapped Dupuis for a guy like Hemsky, it would make the line worse and none of the players would perform as well. He's the kind of guy you can and will have on a top line if you want to win the Cup. Because if you have enough offensive talent to win the Cup, you're going to spread it over three lines and work some grit and defense in there also.

Kunitz has been a 1st line player for most of his career but never confused with a top tier one either.

Dupuis is also a good player but if people were starting a team for one year how high would either Kunitz or Dupuis go really?

Even at their peaks, having them as long term linemates is hardly Bossy or Kurri like, just to give an obvious example or in the case of this thread the years Jagr played with a mature prime Ron Francis.

It would be

Francis




Kunitz



Dupuis

 

[pdd]

Kunitz has been a 1st line player for most of his career but never confused with a top tier one either.

Dupuis is also a good player but if people were starting a team for one year how high would either Kunitz or Dupuis go really?

Even at their peaks, having them as long term linemates is hardly Bossy or Kurri like, just to give an obvious example or in the case of this thread the years Jagr played with a mature prime Ron Francis.

It would be

Francis




Kunitz



Dupuis

You forgot some.

Francis

Kunitz

Straka
Dupuis




Hrdina
Miller

 

[Hardyvan123]

You forgot some.

Francis

Kunitz

Straka
Dupuis




Hrdina
Miller

I'm going off the top of my head, as I don't know the exact breakdown between all linemates and players over Jagrs 1st 8 seasons.

Maybe CzechyourMath can give us a breakdown?

Either way is the gap between Francis/ Kunitz really the same as the gap between Kunitz/(Straka and Dupuis)?

Francis did play with the Pens for 7 seasons plus the 14 games and playoff run in 91. He was 27-34 during that time and still in his prime

 

[HoldenGatsby]

I'm going off the top of my head, as I don't know the exact breakdown between all linemates and players over Jagrs 1st 8 seasons.

Maybe CzechyourMath can give us a breakdown?

Either way is the gap between Francis/ Kunitz really the same as the gap between Kunitz/(Straka and Dupuis)?

Francis did play with the Pens for 7 seasons plus the 14 games and playoff run in 91. He was 27-34 during that time and still in his prime

Exactly, Francis is 4th all time in points whereas Kunitz is a 50 point per season player. By no stretch of the imagination are the two comparable.
And to say Kunitz is better than Straka is also a bit short sighted, Straka's numbers are far superior to Kunitz.

 

[livewell68]

Exactly, Francis is 4th all time in points whereas Kunitz is a 50 point per season player. By no stretch of the imagination are the two comparable.
And to say Kunitz is better than Straka is also a bit short sighted, Straka's numbers are far superior to Kunitz.

Straka shouldn't be in this conversation as Jagr's first 8 seasons are irrelevant here to Straka being in the picture.

As for Straka having better numbers than Kunitz, please go have a look as to when his best numbers were compiled and check who is teammate was. Jagr played a huge role in helping Straka compile a very good NHL career.

 

[livewell68]

Can we revive this thread?

The Crosby thread in the General Hockey Talk section has irked me.

Crosby's first 8 seasons have not been "significantly better than Jagr's and here is the proof.

In Jagr's first 8 seasons he played 581 games (he also had a lockout shortened season), scored 301 goals, collected 434 assists for a total of 735 Pts.

In that timeframe Jagr's best scoring finishes were 9th, 1st, 2nd, 5th, 1st (all of his top 10 finishes coming from his 4th season to his 8th season).

He has 2 Art Ross trophies, his Hart finishes are 2nd, 4th, 2nd.

Given the circumstances and how Jagr arrived to the league (he was not more eased in than Crosby was living with Lemieux), he was playing 4th and 3rd line minutes for his first 3 seasons and only started to play on the 2nd and 1st lines from his 4th season onward and despite the big handicap still had a 1.27 PPG pace.

In comparison, Crosby has 470 games played, 238 goals, 427 assists for a total of 665 Pts. No surprise here Crosby wins the PPG argument here with a 1.41 to 1.27 lead. Jagr however has the better GPG (goals per game) in their first 8 seasons but he also has played 90 more games in the same timeframe which can also bridge the PPG stat closer with Crosby's PPG most likely dropping in those 90 games (a whole season's worth more of games).

Crosby's best scoring finishes in that timeframe are 6th, 1st, 3rd, 3rd and 3rd.

He has 1 Art Ross trophy, 1 Hart, 1 Rocket Richard trophy, 2 Pearsons/ Lindsays and his Hart finishes are 1st, 3rd and 2nd.

The lead is not as significant as some are claiming and in fact the results are very similar with both having 5 top 10 finishes in scoring and both having 3 top 4 finishes in the Hart voting (Crosby having been a Hart finalist 3 times with Jagr just twice).

Some want to say how Crosby has taken his game to another level over the last 4 seasons (seasons 5, 6, 7 and 8) well so did Jagr.

Between Jagr's 5th to 8th seasons, he are his numbers:

270 games, 176 goals, 240 assists for a total of 416 Pts. that's a PPG of 1.54.

Between Crosby's 5th to 8th seasons, here are his numbers:

180 games, 106 goals, 162 assists for a total of 268 Pts. that's a PPG of 1.49.

So technically Jagr has been a better player than Crosby has been from season 4 onward oh but Crosby is a better two-way player.

 

[jkrx]

Can we revive this thread?

The Crosby thread in the General Hockey Talk section has irked me.

Crosby's first 8 seasons have not been "significantly better than Jagr's and here is the proof.

In Jagr's first 8 seasons he played 581 games (he also had a lockout shortened season), scored 301 goals, collected 434 assists for a total of 735 Pts.

In that timeframe Jagr's best scoring finishes were 9th, 1st, 2nd, 5th, 1st (all of his top 10 finishes coming from his 4th season to his 8th season).

He has 2 Art Ross trophies, his Hart finishes are 2nd, 4th, 2nd.

Given the circumstances and how Jagr arrived to the league (he was not more eased in than Crosby was living with Lemieux), he was playing 4th and 3rd line minutes for his first 3 seasons and only started to play on the 2nd and 1st lines from his 4th season onward and despite the big handicap still had a 1.27 PPG pace.

In comparison, Crosby has 470 games played, 238 goals, 427 assists for a total of 665 Pts. No surprise here Crosby wins the PPG argument here with a 1.41 to 1.27 lead. Jagr however has the better GPG (goals per game) in their first 8 seasons.

Crosby's best scoring finishes in that timeframe are 6th, 1st, 3rd, 3rd and 3rd.

He has 1 Art Ross trophy, 1 Hart, 1 Rocket Richard trophy, 2 Pearsons/ Lindsays and his Hart finishes are 1st, 3rd and 2nd.

The lead is not as significant as some are claiming.

Some want to say how Crosby has taken his game to another level over the last 4 seasons (seasons 5, 6, 7 and 8) well so did Jagr.

Between Jagr's 5th to 8th seasons, he are his numbers:

270 games, 176 goals, 240 assists for a total of 416 Pts. that's a PPG of 1.54.

Between Crosby's 5th to 8th seasons, here are his numbers:

180 games, 106 goals, 162 assists for a total of 268 Pts. that's a PPG of 1.49.

So technically Jagr has been a better player than Crosby has been from season 4 onward oh but Crosby is a better two-way player.

Raw stats again, eh? Crosby played in less offensive era for the full brunt of his 8 seasons, except for '06.

Jagrs first 6 seasons occured in the high scoring era while the last two in the dead puck era.

It's a tough choice who was better but I guess I would take Jagr.

 

[livewell68]

Raw stats again, eh? Crosby played in less offensive era for the full brunt of his 8 seasons, except for '06.

Jagrs first 6 seasons occured in the high scoring era while the last two in the dead puck era.

It's a tough choice who was better but I guess I would take Jagr.

Follow this link:

http://dropyourgloves.com/Stat/LeagueGoals.aspx

You will see here the GPG (goals per game average) of each player's first 8 seasons in the NHL. I will do Jagr's first:

1990-91 GPG of 6.91, 1991-92 6.96, 1992-93 7.25, 1993-94 6.48, 1994-95 5.97, 1995-96 6.29, 1996-97 5.83 and 1997-98 5.28.

Now Crosby's first 8 seasons:

2005-06 GPG of 6.17, 2006-07 GPG of 5.89, 2007-08 GPG of 5.57, 2008-08 GPG of 5.83, 2009-10 GPG of 5.68, 2010-11 GPG of 5.59, 2011-12 GPG of 5.47 and 2012-13 GPG of 5.44.

I put in bold the seasons in which the scoring was very similar in each players' first 8 seasons. Excluding Jagr's first 3 seasons in the NHL (when scoring was significantly higher but where Jagr was playing 8-12 minutes a game playing on the 3rd and 4th lines and getting some 2nd line PP time) the scoring was very even between both "eras" coinciding with each player's first 8 seasons.

The average GPG (goals per game) of Jagr's 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th seasons is 5.84. The average GPG of Crosby's 8 seasons is 5.71 and just so I don't get accused of using selective stats, the GPG of Jagr's first 8 seasons is 6.37. That is only a 0.66 GPG difference but again Jagr's less minutes played evens that out.

The scoring levels of the league aren't that different with the clutching and grabbing being a lot more rampant in Jagr's first 8 seasons.

 

[Sentinel]

Crosby is about a dozen or so slots behind Jagr on the all time list.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Why are people even comparing this?

You're comparing a kid who was marketed as the next great thing, put into every situation to succeed, to a kid who didn't know any English and came to America completely under the radar.

Sure, Crosby has the upper hand on Jagr in the first 8 years.
So does Ovechkin. So does Malkin. Stamkos will too, probably.
Jagr came into the league in very different circumstances compared to those guys.

Thing is, after that, Jagr separates from the pack in a way that neither of those players has managed so far.
He dominated the game unlike anyone not named Mario or Wayne in the last 35 years.
People on HF seem to forget, he was not only big and strong, but also fast and skilled. And contrary to his Washington heritage and Milbury ramblings, outside of those 3 years, he was always a great leader and a character guy. Nor was he a slouch defensively, even today, in his old days. But he doesn't hit and scores so much etc., so he must not be playing D - the HF mantra.

People's memory is apparently very short.

Hard to just breeze over an all-time great player sulking for 3 years in his prime.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Follow this link:

http://dropyourgloves.com/Stat/LeagueGoals.aspx

You will see here the GPG (goals per game average) of each player's first 8 seasons in the NHL. I will do Jagr's first:

1990-91 GPG of 6.91, 1991-92 6.96, 1992-93 7.25, 1993-94 6.48, 1994-95 5.97, 1995-96 6.29, 1996-97 5.83 and 1997-98 5.28.

Now Crosby's first 8 seasons:

2005-06 GPG of 6.17, 2006-07 GPG of 5.89, 2007-08 GPG of 5.57, 2008-08 GPG of 5.83, 2009-10 GPG of 5.68, 2010-11 GPG of 5.59, 2011-12 GPG of 5.47 and 2012-13 GPG of 5.44.

I put in bold the seasons in which the scoring was very similar in each players' first 8 seasons. Excluding Jagr's first 3 seasons in the NHL (when scoring was significantly higher but where Jagr was playing 8-12 minutes a game playing on the 3rd and 4th lines and getting some 2nd line PP time) the scoring was very even between both "eras" coinciding with each player's first 8 seasons.

The average GPG (goals per game) of Jagr's 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th seasons is 5.84. The average GPG of Crosby's 8 seasons is 5.71 and just so I don't get accused of using selective stats, the GPG of Jagr's first 8 seasons is 6.37. That is only a 0.66 GPG difference but again Jagr's less minutes played evens that out.

The scoring levels of the league aren't that different with the clutching and grabbing being a lot more rampant in Jagr's first 8 seasons.

Can you please use the correct scoring levels for the post-lockout seasons? dropyourgloves as well as hockeyreference includes shootout goals in leaguewide scoring averages since 05-06. The correct numbers can be found at: http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_GoalsPerGame.php

2005-06 6.050
2006-07 5.757
2007-08 5.439
2008-09 5.695
2009-10 5.530
2010-11 5.464
2011-12 5.319
2012-13 5.306

Average is 5.57 GPG, .8 less than the average for Jagr's first 8 seasons.

 

[daver]

but he also has played 90 more games in the same timeframe which can also bridge the PPG stat closer with Crosby's PPG most likely dropping in those 90 games (a whole season's worth more of games).

Yes, Crosby playing a full season's more of hockey in his prime would certainly reduce his PPG.

Let me ask you something. Jagr only played 48 games in 1994-95 and had a PPG of 1.46. This was higher than his career PPG so by your theory his PPG should decreased the next year when he played a full season. Instead, it went up. What's different about this than Crosby's situation?

 

[bert]

To add to this

From pretty much his sophomore year until now Crosby has been known as either one of the best (07-10) or THE best (10-13).

Jagr was part of the mix his first three seasons. In 93-94 you could argue he was a top 15 player in the league. In 94-95 he won the Art Ross, but I think most everyone would have taken Lindros, Lemieux and Gretzky over him. Not to mention Coffey, Chelios, Bourque, Hasek and probably Belfour too.

It wasn't until 95-96 that he really started to get credit. Yes, he was riding shotgun to a much superior Lemieux, but he still washed up the league by himself.

I'm not sure the opinion of him in 96-97, but in 97-98 he has established himself as THE best forward in the world.


In terms of reputation Sid's first 8 years destroys Jagr. Hell, it terms of rep Sid is probably top ten all time. Only he and Gretzky won the Hart as teenagers.

Sid never played in the same era as Lemieux or Gretzky. So to slight Jagr because he wasn't the best in the world is completely counter productive.

I think Crosby is a great player but he hasn't taken over in the playoffs yet or in the Olympics I have been disappointed in his play at the most crucial moments. From getting out played by Zetteberg in back to back SCF's then head to head against Giroux. I am just not convinced, the whining which yes has regressed a lot is still there and that makes me think he doesn't have it, not like the players he keeps getting compared to.

He also isn't capable of gelling with every player he plays with something Jagr, Lemieux, Gretzky and even Sakic had no problem doing so. This whole argument about the Olympics alone saying you have to bring Kunitz to play with him just proves he is overrated.

 

[Beau Knows]

He also isn't capable of gelling with every player he plays with something Jagr, Lemieux, Gretzky and even Sakic had no problem doing so. This whole argument about the Olympics alone saying you have to bring Kunitz to play with him just proves he is overrated.

Jagr has played in 4 olympics and has never scored more goals or points than Crosby has in his only appearance so far. No one is saying you have to bring Kunitz for Crosby to play well (he was 2nd on the team in points and scoring the winning goal), just that it might have better results because the chemistry already exists.

Crosby's chemistry with his linemates has not been a problem in his career. He just helped Kunitz and Dupuis play by far the best hockey in their careers and Kunitz is now being talked about making team Canada and was an NHL all-star. Hossa had by far his best post-season ever with Crosby, Geurin had his best post-season ever, Armstrong made a living off his time with him and no one has heard of Andy Hilberd since his short stint with Crosby. So I would say Crosby has done pretty well with his linemates.

 

[livewell68]

Jagr has played in 4 olympics and has never scored more goals or points than Crosby has in his only appearance so far. No one is saying you have to bring Kunitz for Crosby to play well (he was 2nd on the team in points and scoring the winning goal), just that it might have better results because the chemistry already exists.

Crosby's chemistry with his linemates has not been a problem in his career. He just helped Kunitz and Dupuis play by far the best hockey in their careers and Kunitz is now being talked about making team Canada and was an NHL all-star. Hossa had by far his best post-season ever with Crosby, Geurin had his best post-season ever, Armstrong made a living off of a season with him and no one has heard of Andy Hilberd since his short stint with Crosby. So I would say Crosby has done pretty well with his linemates.

I look at the Czech roster and I look at the Canadian roster and I see a big difference. I see a Canadian team that usual piles on the points in the round robin (in turn padding the roster's scoring stats) while the Czechs (because outside a few good players and Jagr (offense strictly) don't have the fire power to win games 8-0, rather rely on sound team defense to grind out wins.

Jagr has been by far more valuable to his teams at the Olympics (1998, 2002 and 2006 especially) than Crosby has been to his in his lone Olympic venture. Crosby scores the Golden Goal and he is suddenly a god all the while ignoring how poor his play was in that tournament including that very same Gold medal game, after all it was Towes that carried that Canadian team.

 

[livewell68]

Hard to just breeze over an all-time great player sulking for 3 years in his prime.

.... and yet he somehow manages to still produce at a PPG pace all the while continuing his NHL records for consecutive 70 + Pts seasons and 30 goals seasons.

In the 2001-02 to 2003-04 timeframe, Jagr was still top 5 in both goals and points scored.

Must be his sulking that made him score 79 Pts in 69 games (2001-02) in his first season with a new team (after 11 with the same one) which was good enough for 5th in league scoring and 2nd in PPG (94 Pts pace when the Art Ross winner scored just 96).

Must be Jagr's sulking that made Cassidy's coaching suck so much in 2002-03?