#FIRECHIA

[shoop]

Haha you still think the Hall trade is up for debate??

Who was GM of the Reinhart trade? He wears that, which might be the worst trade of the last 10 years.

It's absolutely up for debate. I think the thousands of posts on the trade prove that. Last off-season the trade looked like a clear win for the Oilers. A good season for Hall and a bad season for Larsson doesn't completely change the dynamic. Two seasons after the trade and here's where we stand. The Oilers won one season and the Devils won one season.

Most of the virulent anti-Chia crowd get that the OBC had a huge hand in the Reinhart deal. Worst trade of the last 10 years? Yeah, I think PK Subban and Marc Bergevin would disagree. Or maybe Phil Kessel.

 

[shoop]

wtf? season long pouting act? You are living in a different world.

Hell Matt Duchene had a legitimate 2 season long pouting act and SKIPPED training camp and had worse stats than Hall and still returned MORE in a trade. That is the most embarrassing thing ive ever seen.

Hall had the worst season of his career in 2016-17. Just a little worse than the first of Duchene's 'legitimate' pouting act seasons. Duchene's stats were actually better in 2015-16 than Hall's in 2016-17.

Duchene got back one legit NHLer. Samuel Girard who is a 4/5D with some potential to be a little more, plus picks/prospects and Andrew Hammond who isn't really a prospect anymore.

That return didn't fill any needs the Oilers have. It would have been the proverbial magic beans all over again.

 

[Little Fury]

Two years after the trade the Oilers are:

• Bereft of talent at forward and especially the wings
• Weak on D overall and in need of a top four RHD with offensive ability
• Without the cap space to fix either issue

The situation is not entirely the result of the Hall trade. rather the Hall trade was part and parcel of a series of bad bets made by the GM.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Two years after the trade the Oilers are:

• Bereft of talent at forward and especially the wings
• Weak on D overall and in need of a top four RHD with offensive ability
• Without the cap space to fix either issue

The situation is not entirely the result of the Hall trade. rather the Hall trade was part and parcel of a series of bad bets made by the GM.

Not to mention have question marks in net. Center is the only position where the Oilers are strong. In the entire organization.

 

[shoop]

Two years after the trade the Oilers are:

• Bereft of talent at forward and especially the wings
• Weak on D overall and in need of a top four RHD with offensive ability
• Without the cap space to fix either issue

The situation is not entirely the result of the Hall trade. rather the Hall trade was part and parcel of a series of bad bets made by the GM.

The Oilers have an abundance of talent at C. So much that Nuge will probably play on the first line next season as a winger, which helps ameliorate the second part of the issue.

Gets back to the question of developing from within and player development. Puljujarvi and Yamamoto develop then the problems on the wing aren't that serious, especially if Lucic can recover.

The part in bold is an incredibly specific need. If the Oilers play Bear in Bako next year then hopefully he is ready to make that jump in 2019-20. A PP specialist will help, but the top four RHD with offensive ability is something half the teams in the league probably need.

As for the cap space? Any improvements to the first two points will involve moving people out.

 

[Little Fury]

The Oilers have an abundance of talent at C. So much that Nuge will probably play on the first line next season as a winger, which helps ameliorate the second part of the issue.

Usually when people talk about teams having great centre depth they mean just that and not "their only good players are centres so they have to press gang them into playing wing.:"

Gets back to the question of developing from within and player development. Puljujarvi and Yamamoto develop then the problems on the wing aren't that serious, especially if Lucic can recover.

Puljujarvi has been exceedingly disappointing so far and may never amount to anything more than a middle six player. Yamamoto might be a NHL top sixer, but the Oilers will force him into that role next season whether he's ready or not. As for Lucic, I expect that he's done as a top six player.

The part in bold is an incredibly specific need. If the Oilers play Bear in Bako next year then hopefully he is ready to make that jump in 2019-20. A PP specialist will help, but the top four RHD with offensive ability is something half the teams in the league probably need.

Well, this is a need that's been identified by the GM and the org president and I expect them to pursue a short term solution at great cost because their jobs are on the line and they don't care about 2019-20 or beyond.

As for the cap space? Any improvements to the first two points will involve moving people out.

Our worst contracts have NMCs/NTCs.

 

[Aceboogie]

Hall had the worst season of his career in 2016-17. Just a little worse than the first of Duchene's 'legitimate' pouting act seasons. Duchene's stats were actually better in 2015-16 than Hall's in 2016-17.

Duchene got back one legit NHLer. Samuel Girard who is a 4/5D with some potential to be a little more, plus picks/prospects and Andrew Hammond who isn't really a prospect anymore.

That return didn't fill any needs the Oilers have. It would have been the proverbial magic beans all over again.

Hall had a drastically better career PPG (Duchenes was similar to Eberle)

Lol. Girard is a #4D at 20 years of age, just put up 20 points in 68 games (his first season) and is a former second round pick. If by " a little more" upside you mean upside to be a top pairing D then yes. Colorado also got back a 1st round pick (which legitimately could be top 5 next year), a 2nd round pick and a freshly picked 1st round pick in Bowers

So take your pick. High upside 20 year old D plus high 1st, 2nd and 1st round pick, or a limited upside #3/4 D. Hell you could argue Girard is already better than Larsson last season as a rookie. Its not even a question that Colorados return is better, and for an inferior player. If/when the Ottawa 1st turns into a top 10 or top 5 pick, that return is going to be incredible. If the Oilers were really in dire straights to improve they could have flipped the 1st, 2nd or 2017 1st for help elsewhere

 

[Aceboogie]

Oh yeah and the Oilers and Oilers MSM is already pumping out the propaganda that Ethan Bear will alter the Oilers search for a RD. Yes, a fresh rookie who played on the bottom pairing for a few games is causing Chiarelli to kick up his feet and take the summer off. Dude is the laziest GM in the league. If last offseason didn't convince you, I don't know what will

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Oh yeah and the Oilers and Oilers MSM is already pumping out the propaganda that Ethan Bear will alter the Oilers search for a RD. Yes, a fresh rookie who played on the bottom pairing for a few games is causing Chiarelli to kick up his feet and take the summer off. Dude is the laziest GM in the league. If last offseason didn't convince you, I don't know what will

I wonder if any of them stopped to realize that the Oilers D is almost set as it is and needs drastic improvement.

 

[SK13]

Yeah and the "consensus" after last season was that it was a win win for both teams so just like some of the fanatics on this board, the "media consensus" flip flops every year or hell, every month for that matter depending on flavor of the month so I would take the consensus with a grain of salt.

No there wasn't. Many were impressed that the Oilers did what they had to do to be a more well-rounded team, but there simply was NO narrative that the trade was ever good value. When it turned out the Oilers weren't at all a well-rounded team, the stink of that trade is doubled.

I said before I don't blame people for thinking that trade was a necessary evil last year, but it was always an evil.

I'm still failing to see why the Hall trade was a "disaster". Why is it assumed that he would have been a Hart level player here playing a completely different role than he is in Jersey? Why is it assumed that somebody like Demers would have filled the role that Larsson has adequately?

He didn't need to be a "Hart level player". He needed to be what Taylor Hall was for 6 years. Demers wouldn't have filled the role as well as Larsson did, but Larsson is not a star. He's a good, complimentary top-4 defenseman. Probably fits best as a 2 with a great partner, or as a 3 with an average partner. The gap between Taylor Hall and every Oilers winger is a lot greater than the gap between Demers and Adam Larsson.

The Oilers do not have a good enough talent base in 2018. That's unacceptable considering where Chiarelli started. It's no coincidence that the Oilers are garbage unless McDavid is on the ice.

He didn't even leverage that talent loss into an average Oilers defense.

I feel like we're going in circles with this debate and I don't know why I keep getting sucked in but I still maintain that they need a Larsson more than a Hall long term as Drai develops into a premier 2nd line driver and the young wingers develop into top 6 players. The only reason why this trade looks like a supposed disaster at the moment is because of the success Hall and the Devils had THIS season and the struggles of Larsson and the Oilers THIS season. Opinions will change once again next season if the Devils regress and the Oilers improve.
Just to clarify, the Oilers obviously lost the better talent in the trade and they should have gotten an addition from the Devils but from a needs perspective, I'm still fine with the trade and won't waiver on that until I see a much larger sample size over many years to make a proper evaluation.

The Reinhart trade was the real disaster. It cost them an entire draft, a draft with tons of impact players to choose from deep into the 2nd round, and they got zippo out of it. This will be remembered as one of the worst all time sports trades.

We're going around in a circle in the sense that neither will change our viewpoint. I don't consider your argument to be compelling in any way. I think it's pretty clear, and any impartial hockey person will consider that trade to be among the worst in modern history.

Arguing which disasterous trade was worse is pointless. I will never consider trading futures that could have/probably would have gone another way had the Oilers kept them to be as bad as selling very low on a franchise player.

 

[MaxR11]

No one is assuming Hall would be a Hart level player here. We assume he would be what he was his entire time in Edmonton: an elite LW who tilts the ice at 5v5, a rare commodity in this league and not one to part with lightly over a one-dimensional defensive D.



No the trade looks like a disaster because Hall is a vastly more impactful player than Larsson and those things that you say made the Hall trade possible haven't happened yet and might never will (and are independent of the trade regardless; they could have had Hall ad Drai as a dominant second line).



What else is there to evaluating a trade?

Please, hall was NEVER elite here despite what numbers say. he had one or two very good point producing seasons is all. heck he was -15 in his "elite" season if you want to talk numbers. i can go through the history of the nhl and pick out players who had good point producing seasons but were never elite and some of them even because they cheated for offence on a s***** team and played irresponsibly just to pad their stats. he was the epitome of a pseudo-star here.

Larsson was VASTLY more impactful in a positive way in 2016-17 for the oilers and it could be argued hall was still a neg impact for the devs in 2016-17 (heck shero said hall was a 30% player in 2016-17).

I believe the likes of Palmeri (whom i believed likely played on hall's line) had a huge impact on steadying the line. who knows, without a calming responsible influence like Palmeri, hall could have been destined for another one of those good point producing seasons but negative or null impact for the team. I've watched hall enough in edmonton to know he was an unreliable player you don't win with... you don't want on a winning team. clearly team canada (olympics and world cup) saw the same thing. he had spurts of flashiness and some wow factor with his speed but was out of control.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Please, hall was NEVER elite here despite what numbers say. he had one or two very good point producing seasons is all. heck he was -15 in his "elite" season if you want to talk numbers. i can go through the history of the nhl and pick out players who had good point producing seasons but were never elite and some of them even because they cheated for offence on a s***** team and played irresponsibly just to pad their stats. he was the epitome of a pseudo-star here.

Larsson was VASTLY more impactful in a positive way in 2016-17 for the oilers and it could be argued hall was still a neg impact for the devs in 2016-17 (heck shero said hall was a 30% player in 2016-17).

I believe the likes of Palmeri (whom i believed likely played on hall's line) had a huge impact on steadying the line. who knows, without a calming responsible influence like Palmeri, hall could have been destined for another one of those good point producing seasons but negative or null impact for the team. I've watched hall enough in edmonton to know he was an unreliable player you don't win with... you don't want on a winning team. clearly team canada (olympics and world cup) saw the same thing. he had spurts of flashiness and some wow factor with his speed but was out of control.

Ah yes, plus/minus, the stat that tells us that Benning >>>>> Klefbom.

Larsson was crap this year and Hall had an MVP type season. In 2018 the Oilers lost this trade and badly.

 

[Little Fury]

Please, hall was NEVER elite here despite what numbers say. he had one or two very good point producing seasons is all. heck he was -15 in his "elite" season if you want to talk numbers.

Imagine using +/- and thinking you're talking numbers. Anyway, the Oilers outscored the opposition when he was on the ice.

can go through the history of the nhl and pick out players who had good point producing seasons but were never elite and some of them even because they cheated for offence on a s***** team and played irresponsibly just to pad their stats. he was the epitome of a pseudo-star here

The Oilers outscored the opposition when he was on the ice.

I believe the likes of Palmeri (whom i believed likely played on hall's line) had a huge impact on steadying the line. who knows, without a calming responsible influence like Palmeri, hall could have been destined for another one of those good point producing seasons but negative or null impact for the team.

Hall's most common C this season was a 19 year old rookie.

I've watched hall enough in edmonton to know he was an unreliable player you don't win with... you don't want on a winning team. clearly team canada (olympics and world cup) saw the same thing. he had spurts of flashiness and some wow factor with his speed but was out of control.

They said the same dumb **** about Kessel too.

 

[MaxR11]

Ah yes, plus/minus, the stat that tells us that Benning >>>>> Klefbom.

Larsson was crap this year and Hall had an MVP type season. In 2018 the Oilers lost this trade and badly.

yes, my point is numbers are deceiving. there are certainly times where it correlates to what you see on the ice but not always. you can also look at points in the playoffs.... is guentzel>>>>>> malkin or stamkos etc? hall's points and numbers here fooled some into believing he was better than he actually was.

yes in 2018 hall had done more for his team than larsson had done for his but it still doesn't change the fact that if hall was still here he'd still be hurting the oilers. you don't keep a negative influence player on your team even if hypothetically this trend that hall > larsson continues. the goal is to IMPROVE YOUR OWN team.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

The problem with Chia defenders is if you raise a valid point like... Chia knew sekera was going to be missing the first half of the season and klefbom was injured... He did nothing.

Chia defenders then counter to a relevant point like that ...." But look at the defense he made in Boston" .... "Here is the oilers defense in 2012" .

lol

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/in-defense-of-chiarelli.2099209/

 

[Little Fury]

yes, my point is numbers are deceiving. there are certainly times where it correlates to what you see on the ice but not always. you can also look at points in the playoffs.... is guentzel>>>>>> malkin or stamkos etc? hall's points and numbers here fooled some into believing he was better than he actually was.

Did you know the Oilers outscored the opposition when Hall was on the ice?

yes in 2018 hall had done more for his team than larsson had done for his but it still doesn't change the fact that if hall was still here he'd still be hurting the oilers. you don't keep a negative influence player on your team even if hypothetically this trend that hall > larsson continues. the goal is to IMPROVE YOUR OWN team.

The Oilers outscored the opposition when Hall was on the ice.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

yes, my point is numbers are deceiving. there are certainly times where it correlates to what you see on the ice but not always. you can also look at points in the playoffs.... is guentzel>>>>>> malkin or stamkos etc? hall's points and numbers here fooled some into believing he was better than he actually was.

yes in 2018 hall had done more for his team than larsson had done for his but it still doesn't change the fact that if hall was still here he'd still be hurting the oilers. you don't keep a negative influence player on your team even if hypothetically this trend that hall > larsson continues. the goal is to IMPROVE YOUR OWN team.

Well he's not here and we still suck. Go figure. Almost like trading all your talent away for scraps is not a good idea.

Schultz, Yak, Eberle, Hall.... all scapegoats in their time are gone. Who's fault is it now?

 

[MaxR11]

Imagine using +/- and thinking you're talking numbers. Anyway, the Oilers outscored the opposition when he was on the ice.



The Oilers outscored the opposition when he was on the ice.



Hall's most common C this season was a 19 year old rookie.



They said the same dumb **** about Kessel too.

you're "numbers" fail to look deeper into what's happening on the ice and it fools you. hall got matched up against the oppositions lesser players and it allowed him to "succeed" points wise. klef said it best... when hall was matched up against tougher opponents he simply disappeared. other teams generally didn't really bother having to "match" up vs hall. they played their best players vs our "lesser players". why would they bother keeping tabs on hall when their best players will outperform hall every game?

i think it speaks to how underrated paleri was. i said earlier in the season that i was hearing from nj media types that said palmeri was likely the most important player for NJ. but i guess his "numbers" pale in comparison with hall's so to people who don't play hockey they can't grasp how valuable he actually may be.

kessel had always been a much better hockey talent than hall when hall was here.

 

[shoop]

Usually when people talk about teams having great centre depth they mean just that and not "their only good players are centres so they have to press gang them into playing wing.:"

The Oilers have an abundance of C depth. McDavid/Draisatil/Nuge/Strome. Khaira is a very solid 4C and Drake can centre a line in your bottom six. Love the relentless negativity though.

Puljujarvi has been exceedingly disappointing so far and may never amount to anything more than a middle six player. Yamamoto might be a NHL top sixer, but the Oilers will force him into that role next season whether he's ready or not. As for Lucic, I expect that he's done as a top six player.

If you are always looking at the glass half-empty you are never going to see positives. I thought Nuge was press ganged (whatever that means) to play as a winger. So even if JP is 'only' a second line winger why do you have to force Yamamoto in?

Well, this is a need that's been identified by the GM and the org president and I expect them to pursue a short term solution at great cost because their jobs are on the line and they don't care about 2019-20 or beyond.

So you criticize the team for rushing players (if that's what press ganged means) and then you criticize them for pursuing short term solutions so they don't have to rush a player. Damned if you do and damned if you don't in your world, eh?

Our worst contracts have NMCs/NTCs.

The Oilers have fewer NMCs/NTCs than all but four teams in the league. Remember, you are using this as a platform to argue Chiarelli deserves to be fired. Do explain the plural?

Talbot's on a pretty decent contract. If he can regain 2016-17 form that's great. If not, he's gone at the end of the season. If Sekera is healthy he absolutley is worth his money. People whine about Russell's contract but he certainly earned his $4M last season. Looch is disappointing, but that's one contract.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Larsson was crap this year and Hall had an MVP type season. In 2018 the Oilers lost this trade and badly.

weird, you loved this trade last year:

I approved of the trade then and I can guarantee if it wasn't made the Oilers don't make the playoffs.

Their defense was simply not good enough without the trade and would've forced Russell or Sekera to take on first pairing duties.

Hall is a fine winger, but that's really all he is. A fine winger.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/one-year-later-larsson-for-hall.2364853/page-3

now your opinion changed

I look forward to you flip flopping next year when they return to the playoffs

 

[MaxR11]

Well he's not here and we still suck. Go figure. Almost like trading all your talent away for scraps is not a good idea.

Schultz, Yak, Eberle, Hall.... all scapegoats in their time are gone. Who's fault is it now?

well we didn't "suck" last year.... let's maybe see what happens next year and the year after before making snap judgements. heck, i never annointed the oil contenders after their run last year. i knew they'd take a step back. people nowadays are all about the flavor of the month. it's actually hilarious watching people flip flop their opinions or basing their narratives on one year etc.

 

[Little Fury]

you're "numbers" fail to look deeper into what's happening on the ice and it fools you. hall got matched up against the oppositions lesser players and it allowed him to "succeed" points wise. klef said it best... when hall was matched up against tougher opponents he simply disappeared. other teams generally didn't really bother having to "match" up vs hall. they played their best players vs our "lesser players". why would they bother keeping tabs on hall when their best players will outperform hall every game?

Hall faced the top lines every single season save his rookie year. You can stop making crap up anytime.

i think it speaks to how underrated paleri was. i said earlier in the season that i was hearing from nj media types that said palmeri was likely the most important player for NJ. but i guess his "numbers" pale in comparison with hall's so to people who don't play hockey they can't grasp how valuable he actually may be.

LOL. You didn't even know Hall played mostly with Hischier until i just told you.

kessel had always been a much better hockey talent than hall when hall was here.

Yet Hall has always been more productive. Go figure.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

weird, you loved this trade last year:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/one-year-later-larsson-for-hall.2364853/page-3

now your opinion changed

I look forward to you flip flopping next year when they return to the playoffs

I approved the trade at the time. Then Chiarelli decided that we needed no talent on the wings and supplemented the trade with some truly bizarre and horrendous ideas.

Also approving the trade is not loving it. And Hall completely blew away the competition this year because his GM decided to have a chat with him, something that was apparently beyond our GM. Almost as if people can change, imagine that.

Larsson was good last year. He wasn't this year. He can still get better... We hope.

This year was disastrous. Chiarelli made no effort to hedge his bets, wasted the last of McDavid's ELC year on crap, and now we enter years where the cap becomes stricter for us because he couldn't sign his two biggest prizes to lesser deals.

Everything Chiarelli did between now and last June was a failure. EVERYTHING.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

well we didn't "suck" last year.... let's maybe see what happens next year and the year after before making snap judgements. heck, i never annointed the oil contenders after their run last year. i knew they'd take a step back. people nowadays are all about the flavor of the month. it's actually hilarious watching people flip flop their opinions or basing their narratives on one year etc.

We didn't suck? We were staring at last place mid-season! We still finished in the bottom 10 despite McDavid having a heroic year. We were out of contention before Halloween.

NHL standings at the end of play on Saturday, February 17, 2018

Mid-February we were a mere 6 points up on last place.

We absolutely sucked.

 

[MaxR11]

Hall faced the top lines every single season save his rookie year. You can stop making crap up anytime.



LOL. You didn't even know Hall played mostly with Hischier until i just told you.



Yet Hall has always been more productive. Go figure.

show me proof he played vs the other teams top line all the time.

no. i knew he played with hischier mostly. just goes to show how wrong your assumptions and instincts are.

lol, hall more productive than kessel.... gimme a break.