Fire Tocchet

[Fuhrious]

Ummm. Are you guys wanting the cup just handed to us in January? We are still in the hunt for playoffs in the uber close Pacific. Hell we are fighting for 1st in the Pacific. We have our team, we have our coaches just enjoy the ride. Are we just upset because we are not talking about drafting top 10? Its a journey and we are moving forward, enjoy amigos

Hyperbole and strawmen arent helpful or productive. If you look at our point %, the team is playing very similar to the last couple seasons when they missed the playoffs. The difference is, this is the weakest Western Conference in years and the Coyotes are seeing their place in the standings elevated by the mediocrity around them.

 

[DOTS13]

Lots of pieces to the puzzle here. Interesting to read the different perspectives of what is happening. Everyone is, for the most part, circling around a few common themes and it's hard to disagree with any of them. Some of it is coaching, some of it is leadership, some injuries, fan expectations, schedule, and roster structure.

I heard on either 31 Thoughts or Hockey Central podcast (I'm a big Jeff Marek fan), that teams who've fired their coach this season have all had below average (.910) goaltending. Since, and including, that gongshow of a game vs. Minnesota, Yotes have put together an average save percentage of .887. I Iidn't do the math for what save percentage was leading up to that game, but I'd guess it was significantly higher.

Whether or not that all falls on the goalies is up for debate, especially considering the aforementioned poor defensive play and in game coaching adjustments.

 

[Neighborhood Coyote]

RT seems to have every excuse in the book, it's kind of hilarious. I don't see what he's done to earn this kind of leash. Beginning of first season was historically bad... Last season bunch of injuries and another playoff miss.

This year he has a relatively healthy team but no player is really producing a ton compared to what they should be. Even has Taylor Hall to work with now. He got the all star goalie injured inexcusably. Players on this team SHOULD be doing better but they aren't.

Some might say it's the players fault ... Well RT has already had a lot of players traded out and if it's still not working maybe he's just not good at it?

This team should be good enough to make the playoffs. Missing the playoffs would waste the fan buzz they created and put them back to square one. Can't let it happen.

 

[Mosby]

I'm more concerned with how we're going to offload Raanta. Who is lining up to take on a 5 mil goalie with average stats and who can't stay healthy? We may have to buy him out.

 

[PainForShane]

I'm baffled that you think flipping Kessel to the top line and pairing him with Hall will somehow magically "just work". IIRC RT tried that the first game or two after the Hall trade,

We can agree to disagree on how the line looked when they were together -- IIRC they looked fine for the most part, stats say they were decent together but stats can be misleading

Phil Kessel
Taylor Hall

Hall trade was before game 12/17 against SJ, Tocc broke up the line during the vegas game 12/28 in 4GP. 1G 2A 12 shots for Hall, 1G 1A 8 shots for Kessel

None of this is the point though (my fault for writing that last post hot, thanks for the reminder Mango). Most important on our team is secondary scoring.

Put another way,

Kessel should be driving a line not depending on another winger to do it. That's why people are frustrated by him presently.

This. Kessel should be driving a line offensively but hasn't consistently done it this year. Unlike Kessel, Garland has consistently driven a line offensively this year but doesn't have to now that he's with Hall.

Let Garland drive a different line, maybe then we have two lines who can score. If it doesn't work put him back with Hall. At least try something when the team isn't producing, that's a primary responsibility for a HC

 

[tucknroll]

After looking at the Schedule, and talking to a friend. I'm thinking Tocchet gets let go during the all-star break or close to it.
My buddy's point was "Chayka has put too much money and assets into this season to have it go south, also have to assume the income from the playoffs is important for the new owner too."
The break also gives Chayka time to look around for a replacement as well.
Of course this is just spitballing though.

Edit: Also a new coach is probably the best way you have a chance at resigning Hall, the guy wants to win, show him you feel the same way.

 

[hbk]

After looking at the Schedule, and talking to a friend. I'm thinking Tocchet gets let go during the all-star break or close to it.
My buddy's point was "Chayka has put too much money and assets into this season to have it go south, also have to assume the income from the playoffs is important for the new owner too."
The break also gives Chayka time to look around for a replacement as well.
Of course this is just spitballing though.

So we are going to fire the coach of the all star game during the all star break?

I know Vegas just did it but I don’t think this is the way Chayka elects to go.

 

[KG]

I hope Chayka is considering it. Missing the playoffs is not acceptable. How do you explain that especially after adding a 2 year removed Hart trophy winner to help push?

 

[tucknroll]

So we are going to fire the coach of the all star game during the all star break?

I know Vegas just did it but I don’t think this is the way Chayka elects to go.

Think there's more important things to this season than "how it looks" ,especially after better team with a better coach just did the exact same thing...
If anything the lack of back lash the Knights got for doing it probably makes it easier

 

[XX]

Tocchet will absolutely be let go if they fail to make the playoffs.

I don't think it has any chance of happening before then.

 

[hbk]

I hope Chayka is considering it. Missing the playoffs is not acceptable. How do you explain that especially after adding a 2 year removed Hart trophy winner to help push?

How about your goalie has been hurt for the last month?

 

[SniperHF]

They (meaning Chayka, ownership, whoever) probably should not have let Tocchet bounce Allen or if they did so not let him bring in one of his boys in Housley.
I think push/pull dynamics and different style voices from the coaching staff is underappreciated in these days of "collaborative" hockey ops.

Players who may respond to Tocchet are not necessarily the same as the ones who might have responded well to Allen's style. You don't want your coaching staff to be diametrically opposed, but some tension and give/take is not necessarily a bad thing and I think the modern FO is pushing some of that out in favor of a one voice style of staff and is losing something in the process.

Tocchet's in-game skills are mediocre, but on the management side he was doing reasonably well for awhile. Getting more buy in, effort levels were up, special teams were improving. That seems to be deteriorating. When you've only got one basic set of coaching style in the building, if that set doesn't have an answer to a particular problem you're in big trouble.

But he's not getting fired and doesn't deserve it as of yet. I wouldn't have a problem changing coaches at some point here but how quickly I'd do that depends a lot on what they can accomplish in the next two months.

 

[CNYCrunchfan1]

Yes, let's keep firing coaches because players can't light a fire under their own ass. If they don't make the playoffs I blame Chayka more than Tocchet for putting together a bunch of players lacking that certain something that analytics can't predict. Stats don't tell the whole picture no matter how much you analyze them.

 

[Jakey53]

Yes, let's keep firing coaches because players can't light a fire under their own ass. If they don't make the playoffs I blame Chayka more than Tocchet for putting together a bunch of players lacking that certain something that analytics can't predict. Stats don't tell the whole picture no matter how much you analyze them.

Chayka uses more than analytics when looking at a player. Neither our GM or coaches have been successful as a head coach at the NHL level. We are still in the mix here for the playoffs so I don't see any changes until after the season. If we miss the playoffs both could be gone, RT for sure.

 

[hbk]

Chayka uses more than analytics when looking at a player. Neither our GM or coaches have been successful as a head coach at the NHL level. We are still in the mix here for the playoffs so I don't see any changes until after the season. If we miss the playoffs both could be gone, RT for sure.

We literally just extended Chayka. He’s not going anywhere.

 

[SwedishFire]

The Pacific race is tight. It sounds like doomsday was here in this thread. I Arizona make a win or two, they are at the top 3 again. THe diffrence between out of playoff and 1st place in Pacific is 4 pt max. R e l a x. Arizona has a good lineup. Keller and Dvorak hasnt maybe developed as thought, but that will come.

We will see.

 

[PainForShane]

Bringing it back all the way...

Do we think having Lavi or Gallant as head coach helps our chances of being good in the short and long term? (e.g., making playoffs this year / developing our young players / running a staff etc)

If so I think it's something Chayka could / should at least consider. Doubt either one will be avail for long this offseason

 

[XX]

Yes, let's keep firing coaches because players can't light a fire under their own ass. If they don't make the playoffs I blame Chayka more than Tocchet for putting together a bunch of players lacking that certain something that analytics can't predict. Stats don't tell the whole picture no matter how much you analyze them.

Chayka is a top 5 GM. Arguably his biggest mistake since taking over was trusting Tocchet with his endorsement of Kessel. It may end up getting Tocchet fired.

If you make the playoffs, you fire MacLean and dump the problem children on the roster. If you don't make the playoffs, you fire everybody and take a flamethrower to the roster.

 

[Jamieh]

Chayka is a top 5 GM. Arguably his biggest mistake since taking over was trusting Tocchet with his endorsement of Kessel. It may end up getting Tocchet fired.

If you make the playoffs, you fire MacLean and dump the problem children on the roster. If you don't make the playoffs, you fire everybody and take a flamethrower to the roster.

Got any way to prove that valuation of top 5? Who are the others?

 

[Fuhrious]

The Pacific race is tight. It sounds like doomsday was here in this thread. I Arizona make a win or two, they are at the top 3 again. THe diffrence between out of playoff and 1st place in Pacific is 4 pt max. R e l a x. Arizona has a good lineup. Keller and Dvorak hasnt maybe developed as thought, but that will come.

We will see.

Honestly, I've thought about posting this thread a number of times since mid-December. It's purely coincidence (and personal circumstance) that led me to post it on the heels of last night's 7-3 drubbing at the hands of the teams key competitors for one of those coveted playoff spots. Quite frankly, I've thought for quite a while now that RT has quite simply taken this team as far as his skill as an NHL HC will allow. He's evidenced this repeatedly in his negative/cynical tactics (ie "turtling"), his inability to read games and make on the fly adjustments, and his unwillingness to hold "top players"/leaders accountable for lack of effort. That last point leads to the most inexcusable aspect of it all...his open cronyism leading to the dismissal of successful assistants in favor of failures like Housley, trading for boat anchor contracts attached to pals like Stepan and Kessel, and so on.

 

[SwedishFire]

Honestly, I've thought about posting this thread a number of times since mid-December. It's purely coincidence (and personal circumstance) that led me to post it on the heels of last night's 7-3 drubbing at the hands of the teams key competitors for one of those coveted playoff spots. Quite frankly, I've thought for quite a while now that RT has quite simply taken this team as far as his skill as an NHL HC will allow. He's evidenced this repeatedly in his negative/cynical tactics (ie "turtling"), his inability to read games and make on the fly adjustments, and his unwillingness to hold "top players"/leaders accountable for lack of effort. That last point leads to the most inexcusable aspect of it all...his open cronyism leading to the dismissal of successful assistants in favor of failures like Housley, trading for boat anchor contracts attached to pals like Stepan and Kessel, and so on.

After Tippet leaved Arizona, they hired Tocchet, and I think many just... Sigh!...
Not to much to do... Arizona is an intressting team, but I dont know about that defence.
Is Hjalmarsson and Demers still durable NHL caliber?

 

[Fuhrious]

After Tippet leaved Arizona, they hired Tocchet, and I think many just... Sigh!...
Not to much to do... Arizona is an intressting team, but I dont know about that defence.
Is Hjalmarsson and Demers still durable NHL caliber?

At the time, the team was still very early in a rebuilding phase and hiring Tocchet at least made some sense in that despite his lack of experience as an NHL HC, he was considered a good man manager which lends itself well to constantly losing hockey games while the rebuild progresses. Fast forward a few seasons and the team is beginning to demonstrate the ability to compete for playoff positions, and suddenly the team needs more than just a man manager and instead needs a HC with some tactical nous and some ability to motivate players.

 

[_Del_]

I think it's mostly our players with no drive, but Tocc isn't a great coach, either. Easier to fire a coach than have a GM churn his roster and admit failure.
Basically anything that lights a fire under someone's ass would be an improvement, imo. I think Tocc is trying to be everyone's bestie and be the "Kessel whisperer" to everyone, and everyone is very comfortable in the room, win or lose. I'd like to see the "Kessel (and Keller, Schmaltz, Stepan, ...) Yeller" because whispering isn't doing anything. Tired of the endless excuses for everyone in every postgame presser. If Kessel and OEL weren't 100% to start the season, we should have had the balls to sit them because they were hurting the team.
I don't think Tocc gets axed midseason unless it comes from ownership.

I think Keumper was hot and everyone started to believe their own press clippings, and went on vacation. We've got several guys who have another gear that shows up every dozen games or so or go on two game "hot-streaks". Have to get consistent effort out of people or find people who show up everyday. I wanted Archibald out badly, but I'd trade Phil for Archibald right now. And Schmaltz and Keller are busy being what they've always been -- which is apparently our GM's ideal player: soft, streaky undersized skill players who can carry the puck -- as long as there isn't any chance of physical contact.

If we're on the bubble at the deadline, I'd fire Tocc. If we're looking in from the outside, we should bite the bullet and trade Hall and start cleaning up the roster early and take advantage of the TDL urgency. But Chayka would never do this, so its moot. I'd be open to moving on from Chayka or giving him a short leash and other voices in the room, but he just got a nice fat extension, so that's probably moot, too.

The good thing is that Barroway -- and now especially el Carnicero-- have raised expectations from "survival" to something more tangible. It'd be nice if that trickled down to the players.

 

[CNYCrunchfan1]

We make it or not based on what Keumper does. Chayka isn't even top 15 until he wins something.

 

[Fuhrious]

TBH, I'm a little surprised we arent already hearing links between the Red Wings and Gallant...it seems like a natural fit given his history as a player with Yzerman, and what with the situation surrounding Blashill.

Laviolette has roughly a 3.5 year shelf life before his schtick finally burns his players out in the room and he loses all traction and has to move on. That said, his track record indicates it's usually a pretty successful 3.5 year ride.

Given similar circumstances such as the Islanders hitting another level under Trotz, I really hope the Coyotes FO is looking around at some of these names suddenly becoming available and making a sincere appraisal of where they are versus where they want to be.